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Post by hcpride on Jan 24, 2023 17:45:47 GMT -5
As a New York Mets Fan I am interested in Carlos Beltran's chances of getting voted in. I'm assuming this year (his first on the ballot) won't be his year but I do think he's got a good shot over the next nine years on the regular ballot.
He's not a known steroid guy and he's got pretty strong stats/accolades including ROY, 435 homers, over 1500 RBIs/over 1500 runs scored, and a 70.3 WAR. (Newsday notes: Other than Rodriguez, Beltran might be the most statistically impressive candidate on the ballot. A switch hitter and five-tool player, the nine-time All-Star played 20 major-league seasons. He totaled 2,725 hits, earned three Gold Gloves, stole 312 bases (and was thrown out only 49 times) and had a proven record of postseason domination. He hit .307 with 16 homers, 42 RBIs and 45 runs scored in 65 postseason games.)
At the same time he only finished in the top 5 for MVP one time (4th in 2006), falls short of the classic 3,000 hits or 500 HRs, and (perhaps most significantly) got tarnished pretty badly in the Astros cheating scandal.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 24, 2023 17:55:45 GMT -5
Very badly tarnished. To me, his credentials are secondary and he should not be admitted. In many ways, cheating to win a World Series is worse that steroids , gambling, etc. I am a long time Mets fan also.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 24, 2023 19:08:46 GMT -5
Scott Rolen makes it in- excellent ball player but I’m a bit surprised
Here’s an oddity- never played a single game at any position other than 3B.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 24, 2023 19:38:45 GMT -5
Career WAR
Ron Santo - 70.5 Scott Rolen - 70.1
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 25, 2023 10:10:07 GMT -5
Very badly tarnished. To me, his credentials are secondary and he should not be admitted. In many ways, cheating to win a World Series is worse that steroids , gambling, etc. I am a long time Mets fan also. Totally agree that it's worse than steroids and gambling. Unfortunately like the Ortiz comparison to other steroid users, it will come down to popularity and whether or not a player is a media darling. If Altuve continues to have the tremendous career he's having, I guarantee the voters will completely forget about the Astros' cheating scandal when his name comes up on the ballot.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 25, 2023 10:11:10 GMT -5
Scott Rolen makes it in- excellent ball player but I’m a bit surprised Here’s an oddity- never played a single game at any position other than 3B. He's one of the greatest defensive third basemen of all time, no? Rolen is similar to a Mazeroski IMO. Minus having a walk-off Game 7 World Series winning home run on the resume.
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Post by Tom on Jan 25, 2023 12:06:41 GMT -5
Very badly tarnished. To me, his credentials are secondary and he should not be admitted. In many ways, cheating to win a World Series is worse that steroids , gambling, etc. I am a long time Mets fan also. I think that using electronic devices to steal signs is worse than steroids before they were officially banned and basically equal to steroids after steroids were officially banned. I disagree that it is worse than gambling on baseball. One is breaking the rules to gain a competitive advantage. The other brings into question whether or not there was an actual competition to being with
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Post by Tom on Jan 25, 2023 12:07:39 GMT -5
Scott Rolen makes it in- excellent ball player but I’m a bit surprised Here’s an oddity- never played a single game at any position other than 3B. He's one of the greatest defensive third basemen of all time, no? Rolen is similar to a Mazeroski IMO. Minus having a walk-off Game 7 World Series winning home run on the resume. Also the expectation that a third baseman will have a better bat than a second baseman
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Post by hchoops on Jan 25, 2023 12:08:16 GMT -5
Good distinctions
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Post by alum on Jan 25, 2023 12:31:05 GMT -5
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 25, 2023 12:48:55 GMT -5
I disagree with the Mazeroski comparison. Rolen was a very solid player at bat, with a .364 OBP and .490 slugging average. That equates to a 122 OPS+. I know Maz's OBP without even looking it up because it's an atrocious .299 among the very lowest in the HOF and his .367 slugging average combines with it to generate a very weak OPS+ of 84. Rolen as a strong asset on offense, Mazeroski a liability.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 25, 2023 14:22:57 GMT -5
I disagree with the Mazeroski comparison. Rolen was a very solid player at bat, with a .364 OBP and .490 slugging average. That equates to a 122 OPS+. I know Maz's OBP without even looking it up because it's an atrocious .299 among the very lowest in the HOF and his .367 slugging average combines with it to generate a very weak OPS+ of 84. Rolen as a strong asset on offense, Mazeroski a liability. Ask the Yankees
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 25, 2023 14:27:55 GMT -5
Rolen is in good company defensively.
Career D-War, 3B
Brooks Robinson, 39.1 Adrian Beltre, 27.0 Buddy Bell, 23.8 Clete Boyer, 21.7 Craig Nettles, 21.4 Scott Rolen, 21.2
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 25, 2023 14:32:33 GMT -5
I disagree with the Mazeroski comparison. Rolen was a very solid player at bat, with a .364 OBP and .490 slugging average. That equates to a 122 OPS+. I know Maz's OBP without even looking it up because it's an atrocious .299 among the very lowest in the HOF and his .367 slugging average combines with it to generate a very weak OPS+ of 84. Rolen as a strong asset on offense, Mazeroski a liability. Ask the Yankees That was a great moment, my favorite of all time until the Sox finally won it all.
But it was one plate appearance. The story told by his other 7,754 is that he was a pretty ordinary hitter
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 25, 2023 14:58:57 GMT -5
Mazeroski's improbable home run is my oldest sports memory-watched that at age 7 on TV with father and brother.
What a bizarre series with the Yankees three wins at 16-3, 10-3, 10-0 and the Pirates four wins at 6-4, 3-2, 5-2, then 10-9 in the last game
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 25, 2023 15:18:57 GMT -5
Missed that one...I was watching a NY Giants game. My uncle - a true yankee fan - moped around for weeks.
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Post by Tom on Jan 25, 2023 15:45:28 GMT -5
I know Joe Carter ended the season with a walk-off for the Blue Jays in 1993, but Mazeroski is the only one to ever do it in game 7. (excluding the millions of kids who hit walk off game 7 WS homers in their back yard imaginations)
I have a nagging doubt that someone else ended the World Series with a walk off since Carter, but I can't think of who it could be
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 25, 2023 16:56:42 GMT -5
The Hall of Fame feels more fluky if clear-cut, phenomenal players like Bonds, Clemens, Arod, Manny, and a few others are being withheld the honor because of steroids-- either proven, or allegations. Others have a bit more stink on them and are in or will be in (Ortiz). If we have to wring our hands in anguish and try to invent and dissect every stat, park factor, era-adjusted number to justify putting someone in, it seems to water the whole thing down.
Ruth is a no-brainer. Mays is a no-brainer. Griffey Jr. is a no-brainer. There are other no-brainers. Those are who I think the Hall should be made up of. Those legendary, or generational, fearsome, awesome talents should be worthy of plaques and monuments. You can also add those with historical achievements, or the season/career records. Someone like Jim Abbott who pitched a no-hitter with one hand? Incredible stuff.
I feel like all the people that we try to "squeeze" in will start to have this tiered feel to the Hall of those that are the true greats, and those that just accumulated votes because of the ancillary numbers.
Rolen was really good... maybe even great. But he was often hurt, averaging only in the 110s for games played per season across his career. Did I fear him, was he must-watch on TV, did he rack up World Series due to his prowess? Not so much. I think subjectivity should apply. It's probably why writers bestow the honor. Otherwise, make it an objective metric: get to N number of WAR, and you get in. Case closed.
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Post by clmetsfan on Jan 25, 2023 17:53:43 GMT -5
I disagree with the Mazeroski comparison. Rolen was a very solid player at bat, with a .364 OBP and .490 slugging average. That equates to a 122 OPS+. I know Maz's OBP without even looking it up because it's an atrocious .299 among the very lowest in the HOF and his .367 slugging average combines with it to generate a very weak OPS+ of 84. Rolen as a strong asset on offense, Mazeroski a liability. Beat me to it. Rolen was an offensive force for nearly 15 years. Not good enough to get in if he wasn't also an all-time defensive player, but still a really good and consistent hitter. Mazeroski, on other hand, was equally consistent in being a bad offensive player. Not only does he have the awful OPS+ of 84 as you said, but never had a single season a 100 OPS+, i.e. he was never even an average hitter. In all honestly, he probably never gets in if he doesn't hit the most unlikely walk-off in history.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 25, 2023 17:58:25 GMT -5
I remember how the Yankees were dominant in their three wins, lost three by the narrowest of margins, but had no doubt they would take game 7. That ws back when we Yankee fans were truly spoiled.
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Post by clmetsfan on Jan 25, 2023 18:01:23 GMT -5
The Hall of Fame feels more fluky if clear-cut, phenomenal players like Bonds, Clemens, Arod, Manny, and a few others are being withheld the honor because of steroids-- either proven, or allegations. Others have a bit more stink on them and are in or will be in (Ortiz). If we have to wring our hands in anguish and try to invent and dissect every stat, park factor, era-adjusted number to justify putting someone in, it seems to water the whole thing down. Ruth is a no-brainer. Mays is a no-brainer. Griffey Jr. is a no-brainer. There are other no-brainers. Those are who I think the Hall should be made up of. Those legendary, or generational, fearsome, awesome talents should be worthy of plaques and monuments. You can also add those with historical achievements, or the season/career records. Someone like Jim Abbott who pitched a no-hitter with one hand? Incredible stuff. I feel like all the people that we try to "squeeze" in will start to have this tiered feel to the Hall of those that are the true greats, and those that just accumulated votes because of the ancillary numbers. Rolen was really good... maybe even great. But he was often hurt, averaging only in the 110s for games played per season across his career. Did I fear him, was he must-watch on TV, did he rack up World Series due to his prowess? Not so much. I think subjectivity should apply. It's probably why writers bestow the honor. Otherwise, make it an objective metric: get to N number of WAR, and you get in. Case closed. Here's the thing though. These kinds of debates is exactly the point of having a Hall of Fame. If it's an objective number then it takes all the fun out of it and no one would care. As to the historical achievements part, there are numerous examples throughout the museum of great moments like Abbott's no-hitter.
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Post by Tom on Jan 25, 2023 22:42:06 GMT -5
The Hall of Fame feels more fluky if clear-cut, phenomenal players like Bonds, Clemens, Arod, Manny, and a few others are being withheld the honor because of steroids-- either proven, or allegations. Others have a bit more stink on them and are in or will be in I don't like the whole steroids thing. However, my thought has always been that the real stars will eventually get in. As far as I'm concerned, Gaylord Perry set the precedent. My guess is that without steroids, Bonds has 500 ish home runs. On the flip side, Palmiero is closer to ordinary than a 3000/500 player without the juice
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Post by hcpride on Jan 25, 2023 23:18:01 GMT -5
Rolen is in good company defensively. Career D-War, 3B Brooks Robinson, 39.1 Adrian Beltre, 27.0 Buddy Bell, 23.8 Clete Boyer, 21.7 Craig Nettles, 21.4 Scott Rolen, 21.2Off the top of my head, Buddy Bell, Clete Boyer, and Craig Nettles are not in the Hall of Fame. In fact, I don’t think any of them were close (In terms of the vote). But they were known for great defense and your point is well taken. Just googled and I see Buddy Bell was a very good hitter (2500+) while Nettles was more of a power hitter (390 HR). Rolen had 2077 hits and 316 HR.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jan 26, 2023 1:49:15 GMT -5
I know Joe Carter ended the season with a walk-off for the Blue Jays in 1993, but Mazeroski is the only one to ever do it in game 7. (excluding the millions of kids who hit walk off game 7 WS homers in their back yard imaginations) I have a nagging doubt that someone else ended the World Series with a walk off since Carter, but I can't think of who it could be Edgar Renteria in 1997 in the 11th inning of Game 7 and Luis Gonzalez in Game 7 in 2001 in the ninth.
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Post by HC92 on Jan 26, 2023 7:04:43 GMT -5
I know Joe Carter ended the season with a walk-off for the Blue Jays in 1993, but Mazeroski is the only one to ever do it in game 7. (excluding the millions of kids who hit walk off game 7 WS homers in their back yard imaginations) I have a nagging doubt that someone else ended the World Series with a walk off since Carter, but I can't think of who it could be Edgar Renteria in 1997 in the 11th inning of Game 7 and Luis Gonzalez in Game 7 in 2001 in the ninth. I think he meant walk off HRs in Game 7 of a World Series.
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