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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 19, 2023 10:37:09 GMT -5
I could drive a truck through that. Just be certain he doesn't get a degree prematurely, then he becomes a post-baccalaureate student-athlete, and I think one is looking at a graduate school program, or a 3-2 program. The 'Council. Dec'22' updates to the PL Policy/Procedure manual are specific to football. In the update that eliminates the 90 roster limit, the Council includes 'This action allows each member institution to manage the size of its roster according to its own culture and community.' Does this language modify, reinforce or not pertain to the PL manual's general waiver provisions above? Does not pertain to roster limits. ----------------------------------------------- The controlling limit is that of the NCAA: in FCS, no more than 63 full scholarships, and no more than 85 players receiving full or partial financial aid. The NCAA did not adjust scollie caps for the Covid fifth years. www.ncsasports.org/coronavirus-sports/ncaa-eligibility-coronavirus
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 19, 2023 10:54:27 GMT -5
So, NCAA has no roster size limits but no more than 85 can get even partial aid. With a normal 90 roster limit for the PL teams, that would seem to mean in the PL, at least 5 players would have to be walk-ons and with increased roster limits due to Covid, more than that.
Is my understanding correct or did I miss a turn?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 19, 2023 11:30:05 GMT -5
So, NCAA has no roster size limits but no more than 85 can get even partial aid. With a normal 90 roster limit for the PL teams, that would seem to mean in the PL, at least 5 players would have to be walk-ons and with increased roster limits due to Covid, more than that. Is my understanding correct or did I miss a turn? To my knowledge, your understanding is correct. HOWEVER, HC and Fordham, according to the the Title IX reports, often had rosters that exceeded 90. So there may have been wiggle room. Also, other conferences have roster size caps. The NCAA also has a roster cap, which can be adjusted. See below, a dissertation, from some years ago, published by BYU. www.loyalcougars.com/football-roster/roster-faqs/
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 19, 2023 15:20:49 GMT -5
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Post by newadvisor on Feb 19, 2023 16:39:29 GMT -5
The 'Council. Dec'22' updates to the PL Policy/Procedure manual are specific to football. In the update that eliminates the 90 roster limit, the Council includes 'This action allows each member institution to manage the size of its roster according to its own culture and community.' Does this language modify, reinforce or not pertain to the PL manual's general waiver provisions above? Does not pertain to roster limits. ----------------------------------------------- The controlling limit is that of the NCAA: in FCS, no more than 63 full scholarships, and no more than 85 players receiving full or partial financial aid. The NCAA did not adjust scollie caps for the Covid fifth years. www.ncsasports.org/coronavirus-sports/ncaa-eligibility-coronavirusThis is only relevant for Athletic scholarships. If we have 1-2 kids coming each class that are awarded some type of academic aid, it gives the coaches a little more wiggle room to move money around. Not sure how accurate this might be, but it sure would help with recruiting.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 19, 2023 18:40:22 GMT -5
Does not pertain to roster limits. ----------------------------------------------- The controlling limit is that of the NCAA: in FCS, no more than 63 full scholarships, and no more than 85 players receiving full or partial financial aid. The NCAA did not adjust scollie caps for the Covid fifth years. www.ncsasports.org/coronavirus-sports/ncaa-eligibility-coronavirus________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ This is only relevant for Athletic scholarships. If we have 1-2 kids coming each class that are awarded some type of academic aid, it gives the coaches a little more wiggle room to move money around. Not sure how accurate this might be, but it sure would help with recruiting. This issue was discussed ad nauseum at the time that merit scholarships were re-introduced for PL football. There was complete consensus that any type of fin aid to a football player made that player a counter, for the purposes of the 63 or 85. In other words, if someone received a $ of need-based aid he became a counter. If someone had received a scollie to play lacrosse, and also joined the football team, he became a counter. There were several exceptions. A true walk-on, i.e., no prior recruiting contact, and who was attending HC and receiving need-based or academic merit aid, he was not a counter. IIRC, ROTC students receiving Federal tuition aid were not counters, because the source of aid was external to HC. In the case of recent rosters, there were two sons of HC employees. As a matter of policy, children of employees attend HC at a great discount. These players may also not have been counters. .
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 21, 2023 9:03:18 GMT -5
Fifth year students at a four year school are probably never going to be as advantageous as at a university. If anyone can get a few non-medical fifth year players allowed in the PL it's Chesney, perhaps using his current stature and credibility networking with other head coaches and ADs to lobby the Presidents. But that just puts HC at a disadvantage to other league schools such as Fordham and Georgetown. HC is in no disadvantage to Georgetown. Their recruiting is going in reverse to the rest of the PL and once the fifth years graduate, it's questionable to see if Georgetown will ever be competitive going forward: this for a school which is now a combined 9-73 versus Colgate, Fordham, HC and Lehigh.
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Post by hcpride on Feb 21, 2023 10:14:04 GMT -5
Fifth year students at a four year school are probably never going to be as advantageous as at a university. If anyone can get a few non-medical fifth year players allowed in the PL it's Chesney, perhaps using his current stature and credibility networking with other head coaches and ADs to lobby the Presidents. But that just puts HC at a disadvantage to other league schools such as Fordham and Georgetown. HC is in no disadvantage to Georgetown. Their recruiting is going in reverse to the rest of the PL and once the fifth years graduate, it's questionable to see if Georgetown will ever be competitive going forward: this for a school which is now a combined 9-73 versus Colgate, Fordham, HC and Lehigh. I have to agree Georgetown football is trending in the wrong direction irrespective of any 5th year issues. It’s a simple case of non-schollies and high AI -as well as the general (non) support of admin. Beyond that, the notion that HC having 5th-years (now or in the past or in the future) puts HC at a competitive disadvantage doesn’t make sense to me in any case.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 21, 2023 10:14:17 GMT -5
Do not understand Georgetown. One could understand if the school had a philosophical problem with athletic scholarships and opted for need-base assistance across the board.(Happens to be my preference.) But, such is not the case. The school goes all in on basketball with athletic scholarships & some would say a relaxed admission standard. Why not scholarships for football, too? Is it due to the high costs of Big East competition in various sports? Or, is it a TitleIX issue? Is there a fact-based non speculative explanation?
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Post by dharry13 on Feb 21, 2023 10:24:08 GMT -5
Georgetown did get both Chigozie Oge-Evans and Quincy Briggs - two players HC was looking at in the second signing period.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 21, 2023 10:52:23 GMT -5
GU should follow the example of Boston University.
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Post by football44 on Feb 21, 2023 12:03:35 GMT -5
In the case of the Chigozie kid, parents were enamored with the name (reputation) of "Georgetown". Thought graduating from Georgetown had more influence than Holy Cross. Same type of feeling some of these kids have when they sign up for the Ivies. No problem, good luck in life. Football wise I'd like to compete with Villanova, William and Mary and South Dakota State for the top kids in FCS. That's just me.
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Post by dharry13 on Feb 21, 2023 12:17:28 GMT -5
I'm with you 44. I'm with you.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 21, 2023 12:55:09 GMT -5
HC is in no disadvantage to Georgetown. Their recruiting is going in reverse to the rest of the PL and once the fifth years graduate, it's questionable to see if Georgetown will ever be competitive going forward: this for a school which is now a combined 9-73 versus Colgate, Fordham, HC and Lehigh. I have to agree Georgetown football is trending in the wrong direction irrespective of any 5th year issues. It’s a simple case of non-schollies and high AI -as well as the general (non) support of admin. Beyond that, the notion that HC having 5th-years (now or in the past or in the future) puts HC at a competitive disadvantage doesn’t make sense to me in any case. Here's my train of thought: a non-medical red shirt at Holy Cross who is good enough to be offered a scholarship for a fifth year at HC or elsewhere has a more complicated decision than a peer at a University. If the Crusader stays loyal to HC he doesn't get a free one year masters degree. A quality red shirt player at a University might still choose to become a grad transfer to a university that offers academic programs more to his liking or plays at a higher level, but would have the option of attending grad school at his Alma Mater that the Holy Cross red shirt doesn't have. Not the biggest disadvantage. Maybe Holy Cross would keep 50% of our grad transfers - football players and others like Austin Butler and Avery Labarbera, if we had graduate studies.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 21, 2023 14:11:00 GMT -5
Fifth year students at a four year school are probably never going to be as advantageous as at a university. If anyone can get a few non-medical fifth year players allowed in the PL it's Chesney, perhaps using his current stature and credibility networking with other head coaches and ADs to lobby the Presidents. But that just puts HC at a disadvantage to other league schools such as Fordham and Georgetown. HC is in no disadvantage to Georgetown. Their recruiting is going in reverse to the rest of the PL and once the fifth years graduate, it's questionable to see if Georgetown will ever be competitive going forward: this for a school which is now a combined 9-73 versus Colgate, Fordham, HC and Lehigh. Yeah, Georgetown stinks...but do they stink badly enough that they're going to get booted out of the PL? I don't think so. They're never going to seriously contend, but that's largely in part due to their self-inflicted handcuffs. Despite their 1-5 record this year, they were competitive against Bucknell (lost 24-21), Lafayette (won 30-20), Lehigh (lost 21-19), Colgate (lost 34-24), and even Fordham wasn't awful (lost 59-38). The only game they were embarrassed in was against HC.
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Post by dharry13 on Feb 21, 2023 15:51:45 GMT -5
There isn’t enough interest from the AD either. Heck - how are the Bucknell and Gtown coaches still employed. I don’t take firings lightly. Both coaches probably have families and they count on that paycheck. But both coaches have failed to resurrect their programs.
Hire new coaches who emphasize recruiting. Get more talent there. It’s time for a change for both - desperately. Bucknell was the worst football team I’ve seen in 10 years last year. I get they won a couple of games but they were disgraceful. They’ve both had a fair shot.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 22, 2023 11:53:09 GMT -5
Do not understand Georgetown. One could understand if the school had a philosophical problem with athletic scholarships and opted for need-base assistance across the board.(Happens to be my preference.) But, such is not the case. The school goes all in on basketball with athletic scholarships & some would say a relaxed admission standard. Why not scholarships for football, too? Is it due to the high costs of Big East competition in various sports? Or, is it a TitleIX issue? Is there a fact-based non speculative explanation? Non-speculative explanation: Only 15% of Georgetown student-athletes are on athletic scholarship; for men's teams, that's roughly 60 scholarships for 14 sports. The athletic department is responsible for its own scholarship aid and prioritizes Big East sports with a significant lack of scholarships (realistically, everything outside basketball, track, soccer, and lacrosse) for incremental aid. With men's basketball losing significant money for the last 8-10 years, there is little or no excess income to be converted to scholarship support. Personal, albeit speculative, explanation: What is Georgetown with 63 scholarships? Bucknell. If you cannot attract and admit talent you cannot succeed. Georgetown's AI is simply too high and its admit rate too low to attract, sign, and get commits from impact players. Its recruiting has tanked since 2020 because Rob Sgarlata is forced to fill the class with high-band kids with little or no talent at the FCS level. In this last recruiting cycle, nine of the 14 signees were from NEPSAC, boarding, or prep schools. How many impact FCS players come out of Deerfield or Choate? None. For two decades, PL and Ivy fans have given the slow clap to Georgetown teams saying, "well, they try hard", but Georgetown's record against winning teams is abysmal: the aforementioned 9-73 in the PL, 1-19 all time vs H-Y-P, or 0-10 at home since COVID. What is the Patriot League doing to make Georgetown (and by extension, Bucknell), more competitive? Nothing. Hire new coaches who emphasize recruiting. Get more talent there. It’s time for a change for both - desperately. Bucknell was the worst football team I’ve seen in 10 years last year. I get they won a couple of games but they were disgraceful. They’ve both had a fair shot. Bob Benson was 5-27 against PL competition in five seasons. Eight seasons for Kevin Kelly, 10 wins. Eight seasons for Rob Sgarlata, 10 wins (seven of those wins were against either Lafayette or Bucknell). Maybe it's time to admit it's not the coaching. If Georgetown cannot admit talent needed to succeed under the PL by-laws, it cannot compete. But back to this forum: should Crusaders fans care? In one sense, no, it's an easy 35 point win every year. But being non-competitive is corrosive to a conference which would dissolve if as few as two schools leave. At some point, Georgetown has to look to the NEC, where teams are still better but there is no Index. Perhaps Fordham will look to the CAA as an upgrade .Then the HC football story changes in ways that no one wants right now.
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Post by hc2020 on Feb 22, 2023 12:08:40 GMT -5
Clearly, the greatest benefit the PL provides is the auto bid. In the end, as Bill Parcells so aptly put it, you can’t win the thing if you don’t get a spot in the tournament.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 22, 2023 13:35:10 GMT -5
Do not understand Georgetown. One could understand if the school had a philosophical problem with athletic scholarships and opted for need-base assistance across the board.(Happens to be my preference.) But, such is not the case. The school goes all in on basketball with athletic scholarships & some would say a relaxed admission standard. Why not scholarships for football, too? Is it due to the high costs of Big East competition in various sports? Or, is it a TitleIX issue? Is there a fact-based non speculative explanation? Non-speculative explanation: Only 15% of Georgetown student-athletes are on athletic scholarship; for men's teams, that's roughly 60 scholarships for 14 sports. The athletic department is responsible for its own scholarship aid and prioritizes Big East sports with a significant lack of scholarships (realistically, everything outside basketball, track, soccer, and lacrosse) for incremental aid. With men's basketball losing significant money for the last 8-10 years, there is little or no excess income to be converted to scholarship support. Personal, albeit speculative, explanation: What is Georgetown with 63 scholarships? Bucknell. If you cannot attract and admit talent you cannot succeed. Georgetown's AI is simply too high and its admit rate too low to attract, sign, and get commits from impact players. Its recruiting has tanked since 2020 because Rob Sgarlata is forced to fill the class with high-band kids with little or no talent at the FCS level. In this last recruiting cycle, nine of the 14 signees were from NEPSAC, boarding, or prep schools. How many impact FCS players come out of Deerfield or Choate? None. For two decades, PL and Ivy fans have given the slow clap to Georgetown teams saying, "well, they try hard", but Georgetown's record against winning teams is abysmal: the aforementioned 9-73 in the PL, 1-19 all time vs H-Y-P, or 0-10 at home since COVID. What is the Patriot League doing to make Georgetown (and by extension, Bucknell), more competitive? Nothing. Hire new coaches who emphasize recruiting. Get more talent there. It’s time for a change for both - desperately. Bucknell was the worst football team I’ve seen in 10 years last year. I get they won a couple of games but they were disgraceful. They’ve both had a fair shot. Bob Benson was 5-27 against PL competition in five seasons. Eight seasons for Kevin Kelly, 10 wins. Eight seasons for Rob Sgarlata, 10 wins (seven of those wins were against either Lafayette or Bucknell). Maybe it's time to admit it's not the coaching. If Georgetown cannot admit talent needed to succeed under the PL by-laws, it cannot compete. But back to this forum: should Crusaders fans care? In one sense, no, it's an easy 35 point win every year. But being non-competitive is corrosive to a conference which would dissolve if as few as two schools leave. At some point, Georgetown has to look to the NEC, where teams are still better but there is no Index. Perhaps Fordham will look to the CAA as an upgrade .Then the HC football story changes in ways that no one wants right now. Thank you. Is there a possibility the PL would grant Georgetown a variance for its AI? This was done for Columbia & Penn a while back. Would Georgetown accept? Or, maybe if the PL schools upped their academics so that admissions would be more closely aligned with Georgetown. A wide disparity in the AI makes little sense in a league of supposedly like-minded schools. I prefer competitive games. 4 TD wins or losses annually are not fun to watch. Also, G-town is special to some of us.
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Post by purplehaze on Feb 22, 2023 14:18:34 GMT -5
No one would say a word if GU relaxed their AI for football recruiting - it's 100 pct in their hands to become more competitive - they have exercised their free will to be a laughing stock and that's too bad for the PL
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 22, 2023 18:14:40 GMT -5
Non-speculative explanation: Only 15% of Georgetown student-athletes are on athletic scholarship; for men's teams, that's roughly 60 scholarships for 14 sports. The athletic department is responsible for its own scholarship aid and prioritizes Big East sports with a significant lack of scholarships (realistically, everything outside basketball, track, soccer, and lacrosse) for incremental aid. With men's basketball losing significant money for the last 8-10 years, there is little or no excess income to be converted to scholarship support. Personal, albeit speculative, explanation: What is Georgetown with 63 scholarships? Bucknell. If you cannot attract and admit talent you cannot succeed. Georgetown's AI is simply too high and its admit rate too low to attract, sign, and get commits from impact players. Its recruiting has tanked since 2020 because Rob Sgarlata is forced to fill the class with high-band kids with little or no talent at the FCS level. In this last recruiting cycle, nine of the 14 signees were from NEPSAC, boarding, or prep schools. How many impact FCS players come out of Deerfield or Choate? None. For two decades, PL and Ivy fans have given the slow clap to Georgetown teams saying, "well, they try hard", but Georgetown's record against winning teams is abysmal: the aforementioned 9-73 in the PL, 1-19 all time vs H-Y-P, or 0-10 at home since COVID. What is the Patriot League doing to make Georgetown (and by extension, Bucknell), more competitive? Nothing. Bob Benson was 5-27 against PL competition in five seasons. Eight seasons for Kevin Kelly, 10 wins. Eight seasons for Rob Sgarlata, 10 wins (seven of those wins were against either Lafayette or Bucknell). Maybe it's time to admit it's not the coaching. If Georgetown cannot admit talent needed to succeed under the PL by-laws, it cannot compete. But back to this forum: should Crusaders fans care? In one sense, no, it's an easy 35 point win every year. But being non-competitive is corrosive to a conference which would dissolve if as few as two schools leave. At some point, Georgetown has to look to the NEC, where teams are still better but there is no Index. Perhaps Fordham will look to the CAA as an upgrade .Then the HC football story changes in ways that no one wants right now. Thank you. Is there a possibility the PL would grant Georgetown a variance for its AI? This was done for Columbia & Penn a while back. Would Georgetown accept? Or, maybe if the PL schools upped their academics so that admissions would be more closely aligned with Georgetown. A wide disparity in the AI makes little sense in a league of supposedly like-minded schools. I prefer competitive games. 4 TD wins or losses annually are not fun to watch. Also, G-town is special to some of us. Columbia was given a variance by the IL to make them more competitive. IIRC, the variance allowed Columbia to recruit more low and low low band players. The variance lasted 3-4 years. It didn't help, Columbia remained non-competitive. Georgetown's AI is not that much higher than Colgate's. IIRC, Lehigh comes in third, because of engineering. Then a drop to the rest. ----------------------- This might be an illustration of what happens at an elite academic institution when the AI is not used for all sports. hilltophoops.substack.com/p/georgetown-apr-raises-academic-questionsThe link title is an understatement. It's a NSFW embarrassment.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 22, 2023 20:09:49 GMT -5
Georgetown's AI is not that much higher than Colgate's. IIRC, Lehigh comes in third, because of engineering. Then a drop to the rest. ----------------------- This might be an illustration of what happens at an elite academic institution when the AI is not used for all sports. hilltophoops.substack.com/p/georgetown-apr-raises-academic-questionsAPR is irrelevant to this discussion; namely, the impact of 5th year students and recruiting. 20+ years of results do not lie: Georgetown does not win because they do not have impact players, either before scholarships in 2012 or after it. If you cannot admit them, it really doesn't matter whether they get $1 in aid or $70,000. Georgetown lost 47-10 to HC with 10 seniors and fifth years starting on offense. And once the fifth years move on from Georgetown, it's going to be grim.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 22, 2023 20:41:37 GMT -5
"... cannot admit them..." (Purely as a point of comparison) IL teams with a higher AI regularly defeat PL teams, no? Surely, Georgetown, one of the most prestigious universities in the world, can attract & find impact players whom they could admit. It seems to me budgetary constraints are the big stumbling block. G-town cannot match the need based scholarships of IL schools. Evidently, there is no money for football scholarships. Football scholarships are the solution.
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Post by hcpride on Feb 22, 2023 21:15:33 GMT -5
APR is irrelevant to this discussion; namely, the impact of 5th year students and recruiting. 20+ years of results do not lie: Georgetown does not win because they do not have impact players, either before scholarships in 2012 or after it. If you cannot admit them, it really doesn't matter whether they get $1 in aid or $70,000. Georgetown lost 47-10 to HC with 10 seniors and fifth years starting on offense. And once the fifth years move on from Georgetown, it's going to be grim. Between unimpressive football facilities and a complete lack of football scholarships, recruiting is an uphill battle at GU. Add in the AI issue and you’ve got the ingredients for a non-competitive (D-1) roster. Because they’re in the very weak PL there is a possibility of a W here and there and a couple of close losses here and there. Soooo, what we see unfolding at GU each year is entirely predictable.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 22, 2023 23:09:24 GMT -5
Non-speculative explanation: Only 15% of Georgetown student-athletes are on athletic scholarship; for men's teams, that's roughly 60 scholarships for 14 sports. The athletic department is responsible for its own scholarship aid and prioritizes Big East sports with a significant lack of scholarships (realistically, everything outside basketball, track, soccer, and lacrosse) for incremental aid. With men's basketball losing significant money for the last 8-10 years, there is little or no excess income to be converted to scholarship support. Personal, albeit speculative, explanation: What is Georgetown with 63 scholarships? Bucknell. If you cannot attract and admit talent you cannot succeed. Georgetown's AI is simply too high and its admit rate too low to attract, sign, and get commits from impact players. Its recruiting has tanked since 2020 because Rob Sgarlata is forced to fill the class with high-band kids with little or no talent at the FCS level. In this last recruiting cycle, nine of the 14 signees were from NEPSAC, boarding, or prep schools. How many impact FCS players come out of Deerfield or Choate? None. For two decades, PL and Ivy fans have given the slow clap to Georgetown teams saying, "well, they try hard", but Georgetown's record against winning teams is abysmal: the aforementioned 9-73 in the PL, 1-19 all time vs H-Y-P, or 0-10 at home since COVID. What is the Patriot League doing to make Georgetown (and by extension, Bucknell), more competitive? Nothing. Bob Benson was 5-27 against PL competition in five seasons. Eight seasons for Kevin Kelly, 10 wins. Eight seasons for Rob Sgarlata, 10 wins (seven of those wins were against either Lafayette or Bucknell). Maybe it's time to admit it's not the coaching. If Georgetown cannot admit talent needed to succeed under the PL by-laws, it cannot compete. But back to this forum: should Crusaders fans care? In one sense, no, it's an easy 35 point win every year. But being non-competitive is corrosive to a conference which would dissolve if as few as two schools leave. At some point, Georgetown has to look to the NEC, where teams are still better but there is no Index. Perhaps Fordham will look to the CAA as an upgrade .Then the HC football story changes in ways that no one wants right now. Thank you. Is there a possibility the PL would grant Georgetown a variance for its AI? This was done for Columbia & Penn a while back. Would Georgetown accept? Or, maybe if the PL schools upped their academics so that admissions would be more closely aligned with Georgetown. A wide disparity in the AI makes little sense in a league of supposedly like-minded schools. I prefer competitive games. 4 TD wins or losses annually are not fun to watch. Also, G-town is special to some of us. I don't think PL schools can up their academics on command so that admissions are more closely aligned with GU.
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