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Post by gks on Jul 29, 2023 11:03:29 GMT -5
I have no idea where HC administrators stand on having the option of offering football non-medical red shirts. Any administrator who somehow thought a greatly increased number of football 5th-years might damage our academic reputation certainly saw some evidence to the contrary. I suspect the coach - who wants to compete for FCS championships on a level playing field - might favor having the non-medical redshirt option. Not much working out well for HC men's basketball or baseball or lacrosse (Covid 5th years, medical redshirts, and otherwise) these last four years. Bingo. We are quick to attribute HC's recent FB success on Covid fifth years. But they haven't been a factor in any sport without Coach Chesney at the helm. Having Gates in MBB last year may have kept HC from going winless but most of our good basketball players like Butler, Faw, Avery have taken their fifth year of eligibility in graduate school. WBB won either regular season or PLT championships the last two years with all four years players when Covid fifth years were available. FB has an advantage being a fall semester only sport. I hope the league allows non-medical red shirts. Wouldn't be surprised with a compromise allowing them with a cap of six or so per year. Ask every football coach in America whether they like 5th years or not.
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 29, 2023 11:08:28 GMT -5
I know Bob Chesney, not as well as some here, but probably better than most here. Unquestionably, he would like non-medical redshirts. He has the respect of the top administrators but BC isn’t going to be a decision maker on this or league changes.
And I totally believe that hanging our success in football on 5th years does a disservice to Coach Chesney. I have no doubt that 5th years are an important factor. But the PL is a “presidents league” leader not athletic department leader. That was on purpose when it was created.
That 5th years don’t hurt the academic reputation of the school is also proven out.
I suspect from a league perspective, there are many factors below the surface that we aren’t even aware of. We don’t know what we don’t know. I am very confident that HC is NOT going to bolt the PL and will not make 5th year decisions solo or with Fordham alone. All or nothing. Without a grad school, you get the Avery LaBarbara decisions in other sports
How much does a potential national championship in football mean to the PL? I suspect not as much as some here would like to think.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jul 29, 2023 11:15:21 GMT -5
67, out of curiosity, were you in favor of going D3 when Fr. Reedy tried to go that route?
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Post by hcpride on Jul 29, 2023 11:28:23 GMT -5
Haven’t seen anyone write that the sole reason for our recent football success are the 5th years but have seen that non-theory pop up as a straw man frequently.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 29, 2023 12:02:22 GMT -5
67, out of curiosity, were you in favor of going D3 when Fr. Reedy tried to go that route? Any try by Father Reedy to go D-3 gets 1% of the attention of Father Brooks' decision to not join the Big East. How serious a try was it? Would there be any BOT minutes or archived stories in the Crusader or T&G about it? Pak? Someone mentioned some time ago that the NESCAC turned us down. Was there an official vote recorded or was that in the "Why write when you can speak, why speak when you can nod, why nod when you can wink" category?
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 29, 2023 12:06:45 GMT -5
I know Bob Chesney, not as well as some here, but probably better than most here. Unquestionably, he would like non-medical redshirts. He has the respect of the top administrators but BC isn’t going to be a decision maker on this or league changes. And I totally believe that hanging our success in football on 5th years does a disservice to Coach Chesney. I have no doubt that 5th years are an important factor. But the PL is a “presidents league” leader not athletic department leader. That was on purpose when it was created. That 5th years don’t hurt the academic reputation of the school is also proven out. I suspect from a league perspective, there are many factors below the surface that we aren’t even aware of. We don’t know what we don’t know. I am very confident that HC is NOT going to bolt the PL and will not make 5th year decisions solo or with Fordham alone. All or nothing. Without a grad school, you get the Avery LaBarbara decisions in other sports How much does a potential national championship in football mean to the PL? I suspect not as much as some here would like to think. I suspect a national championship during his tenure means more to Vince than many might think. Perhaps I'm projecting, but I think he is fully behind the Chesney "Moonshot" in this decADE, as JFK would pronounce it.
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Post by mm67 on Jul 29, 2023 12:30:57 GMT -5
67, out of curiosity, were you in favor of going D3 when Fr. Reedy tried to go that route? Glad you asked. Actually, in hs I thought it was attractive that HC was not a big time sports school. Limited, relatively small time was pretty good. The knock on Catholic schools was big gyms, small libraries. HC was known for its integrity & rigorous academics-first profile with a decent sports program supported by a close knit student body. I would have been delighted if HC could have gotten into NESCAC. Such was not the case. Under the circumstances, I agree with HC administrations past & present that the PL was the perfect fit. I think the school has done a fine job in maintaining its academics-first philosophy while at the same time keeping a tight rein on athletics. In my years. I have come to the conclusion that athletics success breeds athletics excess. Quite frankly, I honestly do not understand the push to add more scholarships, non-med red shirts, more emphasis. To what end? Peace. GoCrossGo
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jul 29, 2023 12:37:40 GMT -5
Got it. Enlightening. Thanks for the post.
So I can assume you didn’t like men’s and women’s basketball going back to scholarships at the beginning of the 21st century and didn’t like football committing to 60 scholarships about a decade or so ago?
I’m assuming you’re a fan of HC athletics, otherwise you wouldn’t be posting on this message board. Do you believe academics have gone by the wayside under Chesney with the rise in the football program?
These wins and success don’t happen without scholarships and fifth year guys.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Jul 29, 2023 12:58:05 GMT -5
I just can’t with this thread anymore. From the top “we are at best a 7-4 team last year without our 5th year guys. Most likely 6-5” Please don’t make me list all of them and imagine the season without them. It wasn’t that long ago where many of us would have considered 7-4 and in contention for a PL title (even runner-up) to be the mark of a successful year. The standard has changed. If you want to go back to that fine. My guess is the vast majority would say PL title or bust and striving for double digit wins every season is a better standard. Plus all of the intangible/off the field benefits of this culture behind just the wins and losses.
And it’s illogical to somehow imply standards of excellence would drop if permitted non-medical redshirts. If anything they are IMPROVING! HC acceptance rate was creeping into the low 40’s and the “yield” rate dropping into the low 30’s. Last year’s stats….21% acceptance 46% yield. Talk to Vince and Cornell and you’ll hear many things turned this around. And one that was a first “athletics became a top 5 reason for kids interest in HC.” A little more due diligence follow-up THE FOOTBALL PROGRAM!”
The 5 year programs/partnerships starting with WPI which will evolve with Worcester State, Clark and others is a signal that the status quo across the college (both academic and athletic cultures) had to change. Innovation is moving fast.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jul 29, 2023 13:01:22 GMT -5
Louder for those in the back, midwest.
Some automatically equate successful football program with compromised standards / academics.
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Post by dharry13 on Jul 29, 2023 13:03:29 GMT -5
All of the above SOV and Midwest. Our school is evolving athletically and I for one love it. Bring on a conference diff than the pathetic PL. Bring on 5th year Seniors and Non medical redshirts! The academic integrity of the school isn’t suffering - it’s improving. And I love it. Let’s go get a national title. Football is at a height not seen in decades and I couldn’t be happier about it - and never more proud of my degree.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jul 29, 2023 13:09:25 GMT -5
All of the above SOV and Midwest. Our school is evolving athletically and I for one love it. Bring on a conference diff than the pathetic PL. Bring on 5th year Seniors and Non medical redshirts! The academic integrity of the school isn’t suffering - it’s improving. And I love it. Let’s go get a national title. Football is at a height not seen in decades and I couldn’t be happier about it - and never more proud of my degree. Bingo. The earned media $$$ that HC received last year as a result of the football program is in the millions. I still think back to that game against South Dakota State -- we were the ONLY football game happening on that Saturday afternoon (professional or college). We were not on ESPN+ or ESPNU...but big boy ESPN. That means something. The eyeballs and great publicity the school received is something that rarely happens. Alumni reconnected with the school. Admitted students were drawn to it. Prospective students became interested in it. The pride surely felt on campus and throughout the alumni ranks were as high as I can ever remember. The mentoring program is helping to mold fantastic young men, preparing them for life-after-football. 67, HC is not looking to create some Power 5-like football factory in Worcester....and scholarships and fifth-year guys aren't going to do that.
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Post by trimster on Jul 29, 2023 13:13:40 GMT -5
Baed on what has transpired over the last 75 years if not longer, I don’t think anyone has to fear HC will sell its soul for athletic success regardless of the athletic level at which the college chooses to compete. Hard stop.
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Post by mm67 on Jul 29, 2023 13:23:55 GMT -5
Got it. Enlightening. Thanks for the post. So I can assume you didn’t like men’s and women’s basketball going back to scholarships at the beginning of the 21st century and didn’t like football committing to 60 scholarships about a decade or so ago? I’m assuming you’re a fan of HC athletics, otherwise you wouldn’t be posting on this message board. Do you believe academics have gone by the wayside under Chesney with the rise in the football program? These wins and success don’t happen without scholarships and fifth year guys. Thanks for your response. Happy to engage. 1. I have always favored a need-based scholarship policy. I think our current hybrid athletic scholarship - need based hybrid is philosophically contradictory, muddled pragmatism. 2.In my undergraduate days I attended every home & many away football/ basketball games. Hell, I was one of the few who watched HC defeat UConn in'66 at frozen Fitton in our annual BC warm-up. Most HC students were in the dorms watching ND-Michigan State in the "game of the century." Witnessed the wonderful HC win over BC in '66. I was one of the "lubricated" screaming student fans at the Worcester Auditorium. Also went to a few baseball games & hockey games & even a couple of soccer games. My avid interest & attendance at HC football/basketball games continued as an alum. In fact I was a football season ticket holder in the'80's. My bona fides as a fan of HC sports is beyond question. However as one gets older, one hopefully evolves and gains a more mature perspective on the things of this life and more narrowly HC sports. I did not realize HC had 5th year non-med redshirts during all those past years '60's onward, most especially during the golden years of the '80's? Currently, we are in another golden epoch of HC football. But as in life everything changes as will HC football. Eventually, at some future time most assuredly past my expiration date, I expect HC along with similar schools will compete without athletic scholarships. The games will still be competitive & exciting, the wins glorious and the losses painful. And our student athletes will be winners on & off the field as has always been the case. Good Cheer to you, fellow alum. mm
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 29, 2023 13:56:43 GMT -5
L/S, yes, you are probably projecting, a little. Of course, Vince would like a national championship and I sure hope so does Bob Chesney (he does).
But, let's not start getting into extreme positions. One thing I learned at Holy Cross is that there are precious few things that are black and white.
While there's no evidence that 5th year athletes, whatever the cause, lowers the academic profile of the school, there is also no evidence that it has improved the College's academics. Take that argument off the table. It's has to be neutral.
Yes, the College has become more selective - not as selective as it once was, but is improving from where it had deteriorated from.
Winning football help? Probably. But don't kid yourself that that's the main driver. Have you met any of today's students? The old days when we had all-male students and football & basketball games were a big thing. Take a look at how many students go to football games now. Proportionately speaking, a much lower number than the 60's, 70's and 80's even in the latter 2 decades when co-ed. They have many other distractions. The PPAC will drive many of them more than football to come to Holy Cross.
But so does The Jo; the new dorms and more to come. Improved science buildings and enhanced academic programs. Yes, the 90-wide (and very glad of its expansion) helps with athletes. There are many reasons why Holy Cross is improving. But football improvement is probably not even 10% of the reason.
You will find few alums more supportive of Crusader athletics in general and football in particular. That said, I'm agnostic on non-medical redshirts. Whatever the leadership of the school thinks is best, I'm OK with it. Changing leagues? I think we are fine where we are.
If the PL says "no" to non-medical redshirts, will HC go it alone or with Fordham? I doubt it. This isn't when HC forced athletic scholarships back. As I said earlier, I haven't heard an inkling anyone outside of this board talking about making 5th years a permanent thing on the hill.
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Post by cruskater31 on Jul 29, 2023 14:17:41 GMT -5
Very happy to see how much the CAF raised in the past year. To me over $3 million is spectacular. I am sure our playoff football success contributed to that in ways we can't imagine. I have friends who perhaps would attend a homecoming football and hoops/hockey game and make a general donation to the college around June 30. Now they are making CAF and Gridiron donations and are engaging more with alumni events in Boston and NYC.
I for one believe the Flutie Factor is real. I don't know that it is but I chose to believe that it is. And we are doing this with increased apps all the while becoming more selective.
If the PL doesn't care about a national title, to hell with them. Can we be an FCS Indy and play other sports in the NEC or another league. Even Princeton and Ivies claim all sorts of national titles prior to the AP poll. If the Ivies care more about championships without playing in the FCS postseason, I just can't deal with the PL anymore. As a kid from Massachusetts, I was excited to go to HC but had no clue about anything to do with Bucknell, Lehigh, etc. At least I knew Georgetown.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 29, 2023 15:55:02 GMT -5
It was a let down to start playing Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell when the PL started. But to the extent those schools replaced traditional FB opponents like UConn, UMass, BU and Northeastern, those four schools all either dropped football or changed subdivisions.
Now five of our PL partners (GU doesn't really fit. The Hoya FB program appears to be forgotten but not gone) are fighting approximately the same good fight as HC except currenty without a transformative coach like Coach Chesney)
Coach Chesney is a Pennsylvania native. If he had been hired at PA. Schools Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell or Colgate or Fordham wouldn't those schools be riding the four-peat right now?
HC has one possible advantage to leverage if non medical red shirts don't become allowed. Recruits who are one year older after reclassifying upon enrolling at a prep school might find Holy Cross a more natural fit then URI, UNH, Maine, Bryant, Merrimack, Sacred Heart, Towson, Monmouth, UMass, UConn, Albany, Buffalo, etc.
We have this season and next with Covid fifth years locked in. Let's shoot for the moon!
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Post by bison137 on Jul 29, 2023 16:03:40 GMT -5
I think we can all agree having 5th yr seniors makes a big difference as we approach the season - I think I heard we have 13 which reflects their commitment to the program. I see that Fordham has 14 which is a surprisingly high number, while Colgate has only 2. Don't know about any of the other teams. Bucknell has zero. Not allowed by the Administration. Same as in basketball etc.
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hc69
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 224
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Post by hc69 on Jul 29, 2023 16:43:29 GMT -5
HC is a four-year undergraduate, liberal arts college. For every ten 5th year seniors we have, that's ten students who will never get a chance to participate in FB. For every ten we have, that's five athletics scholarships that are not available to other players. Students should be able to graduate in four years, except for special circumstances. Being a FB player is not a special circumstance. The students everyone wants, those with 1400+ SATs and lots of extracurriculars and community service, don't give a rat's ass about FCS football. They're not sitting at home on a Saturday afternoon watching two teams they know nothing about on ESPN or ESPN2. That's especially true for women. I think it's great we have a nationally ranked FB team. My son played when we were terrible. It didn't matter. He went to HC for the education and we went to every game because it was fun. Our academic mission trumps athletics. As it should.
And we're not leaving the PL. For those of you who think we will:
Dream on, little Broomstick Cowboy Dream while you can . . . For all too soon, you'll awaken Your toys will all be gone Your broomstick horse will ride away To find another home
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Post by dharry13 on Jul 29, 2023 16:52:52 GMT -5
Yah I’m sorry HC69. I just don’t agree with you. Couldn’t be happier with 5th year kids and as a result more wins. I’m very much fine with athletics being as much of a focus as academics. Our academic reputation hasn’t suffered and it won’t. Love having a President who loves the direction of both academics and athletics. Couldn’t be happier. And if we get 5th years every year I’ll take it so we can compete on an even playing field nationally.
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Post by hcpride on Jul 29, 2023 16:53:33 GMT -5
I think we can all agree having 5th yr seniors makes a big difference as we approach the season - I think I heard we have 13 which reflects their commitment to the program. I see that Fordham has 14 which is a surprisingly high number, while Colgate has only 2. Don't know about any of the other teams. Bucknell has zero. Not allowed by the Administration. Same as in basketball etc. I think it is reasonable and proper that Patriot League schools retain some latitude and discretion. Georgetown has the option of football scholarships but is under no league-imposed mandate to do so. Bucknell has the option on Covid 5th years but is under no league-imposed mandate to do so. Patriot League schools have the option on giving the max number of lacrosse scholarships but Holy Cross is under no league-imposed mandate to do so. Schools would have the option on non- medical redshirts but would have no league-imposed mandate to do so. Seems reasonable.
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Post by mm67 on Jul 29, 2023 19:54:10 GMT -5
Obviously, this is an HC sports board populated largely by loyal sports-oriented alums who want more for HC sports. Some use all kinds rationales to support their views that HC should expand its profile in football & basketball. TBT at its core, for some it just feels plain good for HC to raise its level of competitive success. No need to defend. Expect the administration understands and takes this into account. I'm comfortably as an outlier who believes a policy based solely on need-based scholarships more accurately reflects the values of HC encapsulated in "Men & women for others." It is a matter of providing opportunity more equitably to all. IMO given reality, the PL in its current formulation remains the best fit . The administration agrees for now. I think it would be a mistake to expand athletics at HC in the form of 5 year scholarship athletes & increases in the number athletic scholarships. I realize success at a higher level feels good to some. But IMO success breeds excess.Values based on fairness & equity are the issue. I fully appreciate and understand the various positions expressed on this board. Like most, I will accept & support HC whichever policy the school adopts. Peace. GoCrossGo.
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Post by efg72 on Jul 29, 2023 19:55:43 GMT -5
Great conversation, but this is why fans don’t make coaching decisions, run athletic departments, or lead colleges and universities.
Over the past twenty five plus years the leadership of the college and the admissions office did significant damage to the academic standing and reputation of Holy Cross. The academic rigor, philosophy, and tradition remained strong during that period, and that commitment allows the school to bounce back.
The academic, athletic, spiritual and community parts of the school are connected pieces of the Holy Cross experience, but managed separately to make sure the students, faculty, and staff can grow and yes can have it all.
If the dollars were available to invest in the school, Holy Cross could be a top 20 academic institution, a top 50-100 athletic program, and a place where spiritual growth and community commitments would be available to all.
Holy Cross is an institution that demands and delivers excellence, and these posts reflect the different preferences of what that might look like when it is delivered. No right or wrong answers, but we must remember institutions evolve and the future of Holy Cross is not about our past experiences. It is, however, about the role we will play in delivering the total education experience to future students and society.
I believe every student and student-athlete that enters the gates on College Street should receive and experience it all while a student at our special college.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jul 29, 2023 20:04:02 GMT -5
To quote Chesney: [We can] “Have it all!”
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Post by hc2020 on Jul 30, 2023 12:06:06 GMT -5
Are there any positions where we are thin that the coaches may seek to backfill with a 5th year player or two? Yes. Defensive End. That’s what I was thinking. RB is also a position where we have made excellent use of 5th years. With 2 5th years on the current roster and having only recruited one RB this past year and only one having committed this cycle I would think 5th years are part of the mindset of keeping that and other positions filled with players who have experience in our system.
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