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Post by mm67 on Oct 10, 2023 10:03:34 GMT -5
It seems the Pats are going out of their way to lose. Are the Pats tanking? Sure seems so. Where do they go from here? To the #1 pick, Caleb Williams. Over the years Belichik & Kraft have shown themselves to ethically corrupt, complexly devoid of a moral compass - a win at all costs, rules be damned.. This chatter about Belichik a GOAT coach is trifling nonsense. Brady made him. Without Brady Belichik's record is mediocre at best. Will the NFL allow Caleb to be the Kraft/Belichik syndicate's new Tom brady? The NFL Commissioner needs to be put on alert. A message must go out to all teams: Any hint of tanking will result in the loss of the team's first round pick. The ball is in Goodell's court.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Oct 10, 2023 10:09:16 GMT -5
Ethically corrupt?
Devoid of a moral compass?
Seems a little extreme.
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Post by mm67 on Oct 10, 2023 10:25:37 GMT -5
Ethically corrupt? Devoid of a moral compass? Seems a little extreme. Extreme? Maybe a tad. But, it sure sounded good. From what little I can remember these days I believe the Pats had Spygate & Deflategate, There may have been other issues. But, to the point. Would you at least entertain the possibility that the Pats are tanking in the Caleb Williams Race? In the 80+ years of Red Sawx WS futility with many losing teams , no one ever thought they were tanking. Pats, eh? Peace |
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 10, 2023 10:34:38 GMT -5
Can't speak to Pats tanking but have always thought that Belichick was overrated - a decent to good coach who Brady made look like super coach. Would seem the critical piece to the Pats success, Brady, is gone and so have the Super Bowl wins.
Cause and effect? Not sure but it seems so. I am not anti-Pats but in the neutral camp. Some love them, some hate them and just the way they are does seem to polarize into black/white football fans. I'm in the minority that I don't wish them well or ill.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Oct 10, 2023 10:47:40 GMT -5
Ethically corrupt? Devoid of a moral compass? Seems a little extreme. Extreme? Maybe a tad. But, it sure sounded good. From what little I can remember these days I believe the Pats had Spygate & Deflategate, There may have been other issues. But, to the point. Would you at least entertain the possibility that the Pats are tanking in the Caleb Williams Race? In the 80+ years of Red Sawx WS futility with many losing teams , no one ever thought they were tanking. Pats, eh? Peace I don't think they're tanking. I think they're not a very good team with a poor coaching staff, so their results aren't surprising. Belichik has very clearly lost his fastball. The results this season can be traced back to circa 2019. Some musings -- It was no secret that there were internal issues between Kraft, Brady, and Belichik. A close to 20 year relationship was having some marital problems and it was only a matter of time before things fizzled out. Brady wasn't getting any younger, and whether he finished his career with another team or retired as a Patriot made no difference for the future of the team -- there was no quarterback in waiting. Zero succession plan. Brady leaves for Tampa Bay and the Pats are left scrambling. Cam Newton proved to be a band-aid for 2020 that did an okay job. Not a long-term solution. In 2021, they draft Mac Jones, hoping he's the QB of the future. He showed some potential as a rookie, but it's pretty obvious now that he ain't the guy. He's a very average NFL QB. Can make a comfortable living for the next ten years as a backup, but he has no business being a starter in this league. Through Belichik's arrogance (thinking he can reinvent how games are called with a defensive and offensive coordinator by committee) and nepotism (he's already got two sons on the staff, will Amanda be next?), the Patriots coaching staff is pretty bad. The Patriots coaching staff in their dynasty years were some of the best ever assembled, now Belichik is taking retreads, family members, and others to cobble together a staff. It's not just Mac Jones. The personnel in other positions ain't great. Belichik is famous for not spending dollars on skilled guys on offense, and the lack of a strong supporting cast at RB and receivers has hindered the offense. So, no, I don't think the Patriots are tanking. I just don't think they're very good. |
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Post by Tom on Oct 10, 2023 11:45:41 GMT -5
In the 80+ years of Red Sawx WS futility with many losing teams , no one ever thought they were tanking. Pats, eh? Peace You are correct. The Patriots did film opposing coaches which is against the rules. The Patriots were also accused of deflating footballs. The NFL even examined balls at half time one game and could not determine if the balls had been tampered with . In all fairness, even though the NFL could not say with any degree of certainty that balls were actually deflated, they could not say with any degree of certainty that balls were not deflated either. It is possible that balls were deflated The fact that Goodell chose to penalize the Patriots with no concrete facts makes a lot of people look back and agree with Goodell's baseless assumption Agree with SOV that Belichik has lost his fastball, but he did win two Super Bowls without Brady (and made it to a third without Brady). I've always been in the camp that it wasn't Tom and it wasn't Bill, but the combination of the two that made for 20 seasons of unparalleled dominance. |
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Post by WCHC Sports on Oct 10, 2023 12:25:11 GMT -5
Bill is a bad GM.
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Post by mm67 on Oct 10, 2023 12:43:53 GMT -5
In the 80+ years of Red Sawx WS futility with many losing teams , no one ever thought they were tanking. Pats, eh? Peace You are correct. The Patriots did film opposing coaches which is against the rules. The Patriots were also accused of deflating footballs. The NFL even examined balls at half time one game and could not determine if the balls had been tampered with . In all fairness, even though the NFL could not say with any degree of certainty that balls were actually deflated, they could not say with any degree of certainty that balls were not deflated either. It is possible that balls were deflated The fact that Goodell chose to penalize the Patriots with no concrete facts makes a lot of people look back and agree with Goodell's baseless assumption Agree with SOV that Belichik has lost his fastball, but he did win two Super Bowls without Brady (and made it to a third without Brady). I've always been in the camp that it wasn't Tom and it wasn't Bill, but the combination of the two that made for 20 seasons of unparalleled dominance. No disrespect. Which two Super Bowls did Belichik win w/o Brady. His first Super Bowl Patriots Victory Brady was the MVP. |
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Post by WCHC Sports on Oct 10, 2023 13:20:02 GMT -5
Two wins with the Giants, one appearance with the Patriots (loss) before he was a head coach.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Oct 10, 2023 13:27:45 GMT -5
After 20 years they ran out of gas.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Oct 10, 2023 14:15:38 GMT -5
It seems the Pats are going out of their way to lose. Are the Pats tanking? Sure seems so. Where do they go from here? To the #1 pick, Caleb Williams. Over the years Belichik & Kraft have shown themselves to ethically corrupt, complexly devoid of a moral compass - a win at all costs, rules be damned.. This chatter about Belichik a GOAT coach is trifling nonsense. Brady made him. Without Brady Belichik's record is mediocre at best. Will the NFL allow Caleb to be the Kraft/Belichik syndicate's new Tom brady? The NFL Commissioner needs to be put on alert. A message must go out to all teams: Any hint of tanking will result in the loss of the team's first round pick. The ball is in Goodell's court. Wow, way over the top. Spygate and Deflategate were both trifles, the latter never even proven. Spend some time on Google and you'll find that many (most?) NFL teams have had examples of being "ethically corrupt." I'm a Pats fan but sick of Belichick's snarky personality, and now his inability to coach. His time is up. Personally, I think he should be fired now. There is no way they're tanking; they just stink. |
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Oct 10, 2023 14:25:11 GMT -5
I too vote for they stink. I also think they never should have given him power to shop for the groceries; and instead had him stick to the cooking.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 10, 2023 14:42:32 GMT -5
Very poetic, NAD. So, you can write poems beyond your annual Crossports holiday poem!  |
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Post by mm67 on Oct 10, 2023 14:51:18 GMT -5
Belichick was the Defensive Coordinator not the head coach on those Giants championship teams. Big difference. On the staff as a DC does not count toward a GOAT head coach. Brady was the QB on ALL the Super Bowl champion teams on which Belichick was the head coach. His record w/o Brady as head coach in Cleveland was mediocre. To repeat: Tom Brady made Bill Belichick. His record with the Pats w/o Brady has returned to its norm - mediocre. Oh and by the way Brady won in Tampa Bay without Belichick .
Even the loser Jets with Rich Kotite HC would have won w/Brady. No I take that back. Same old Jets would have found a way to screw it up. After two seasons Brady would have asked for a trade. And the Jets would have traded him to the Pats for a 6th round pick.
No excuses for Belichick. He has not run out of gas in the tank. He has run out of Brady in the tank. He is an average mediocre coach.
After twenty years the Pats did not merely run out of gas. They "ran out of Brady."
Brady was simply the best. Better than all the rest.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Oct 10, 2023 15:22:20 GMT -5
I'm not saying whether or not Bill is the best coach ever, nor am I arguing that assistant coaching accolades should count towards his GOAT status. I was just answering your question referring to Tom's earlier post. Personally, I maintain that bad coaching can cost you more championships than good coaching can win you. The value criteria to that premise in my book is that if you have the horses, you're gonna win. Brady turned a team with strong players on defense, a good offensive line, and an annual parade of "nobodys" on offense into a perennial Super Bowl contender. Does some of that overlap with historical ineptitude across the AFC East to launch the Pats to a first round bye? Does Brady's low-risk, check-down-Charlie when needed approach match perfectly with a good defense and a hall of fame kicker (or two HoF kickers)? Sure does!
Belichick, Landry, Reid, or even guys like Torre or Reilly or Jackson all in the same boat-- you can't take away that they had multiple hall of famers or GOATS under their guidance, but the players offer more than the talkers on the sideline.
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Post by mm67 on Oct 10, 2023 15:50:44 GMT -5
I'm not saying whether or not Bill is the best coach ever, nor am I arguing that assistant coaching accolades should count towards his GOAT status. I was just answering your question referring to Tom's earlier post. Personally, I maintain that bad coaching can cost you more championships than good coaching can win you. The value criteria to that premise in my book is that if you have the horses, you're gonna win. Brady turned a team with strong players on defense, a good offensive line, and an annual parade of "nobodys" on offense into a perennial Super Bowl contender. Does some of that overlap with historical ineptitude across the AFC East to launch the Pats to a first round bye? Does Brady's low-risk, check-down-Charlie when needed approach match perfectly with a good defense and a hall of fame kicker (or two HoF kickers)? Sure does! Belichick, Landry, Reid, or even guys like Torre or Reilly or Jackson all in the same boat-- you can't take away that they had multiple hall of famers or GOATS under their guidance, but the players offer more than the talkers on the sideline. Bingo! Great, insightful post! In your opinion would other competent NFL level coaches have succeeded w/ Brady? Or, did Brady-Belichick have a special chemistry. Maybe, we'll never know. One thing is for sure: It's better to be in the right place at the right time. |
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Post by mm67 on Oct 10, 2023 18:10:06 GMT -5
Not really. #1 Still seams Pats may be tanking. Should be monitored carefully and if so, loss of 1st round pick in the'24 draft.
#2 Brady made Belichick. Certainly, Belichick was a mediocre coach prior to & after Brady. Clearly established Belichick is not the GOAT.
The GOAT talk is merely media driven hype to drum up interest & ratings.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Oct 10, 2023 18:47:39 GMT -5
The Jets have been tanking for 50 years so maybe it's only right the Pats get their turn.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Oct 11, 2023 7:57:52 GMT -5
Patriots can only reasonably be tanking if they're benching their best players, making egregious decisions in-game to impact the outcome on a per-play basis... and none of that is happening. You can't confuse bad draft choices or busts, with tanking. Their best players are playing, and they either stink (Mac Jones) or are getting hurt (their defense). If bad play equated to tanking, the Jets haven't tried in 50 years |
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Oct 11, 2023 8:00:43 GMT -5
The offensive line is a mess; as good as Brady was (and as shaky as Jones has been to date), he very rarely had to deal with the inside of the pocket caving in as much as it happens now.
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Post by Tom on Oct 11, 2023 9:15:42 GMT -5
Does anybody really tank in the 4th game of the season? The Pats were 1-2. Lost a close game to a team that is a favorite to win NFC and a close game to Miami. Things didn't look drastic when they headed into that debacle in Dallas. Clearly not so desperate to trash the whole season. You might reasonably ask the question in December, but even the worst teams aren't thinking that way in September
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Post by Ray on Oct 11, 2023 10:21:46 GMT -5
They're not tanking... and they aren't corrupt. They just stink.
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Post by alum on Oct 11, 2023 10:24:09 GMT -5
I too vote for they stink. I also think they never should have given him power to shop for the groceries; and instead had him stick to the cooking. Perfect post. |
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Post by mm67 on Oct 11, 2023 10:40:28 GMT -5
Re: Tanking in Sept. See you in December.
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 11, 2023 21:10:26 GMT -5
Some think the big losses besides Brady are Dante Scarnecchia the long time Offensive Line Coach and the secretive Ernie Adams, Director of Football Research, Belichick's Phillips Andover Classmate and sometimes referred to as "Belichick's Belichick."
Both Scarnecchia and Adams retired around the time that Brady left.
In close situations, Belichick would pick up the phone to the booth and say "What have you got Ernie?"
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