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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 24, 2024 10:42:29 GMT -5
Adrian Beltre, Joe Mauer, Todd Helton. Beltre a no-brainer, Mauer with a career WAR in the same vicinity as Bill Dickey and Gabby Hartnett.
Helton gets in with, perhaps, a little boost from that rarefied Rocky Mountain air.
Helton Career Splits Home - .345/.441/.607 Away - .287/.386/.469
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 24, 2024 11:37:56 GMT -5
i believe that while in high school Mauer was the national player of the year in both football and baseball.
One interesting nominee attracted very few votes even though he is the only pitcher in baseball history to (1) win 200 or more games and (2) never have a losing season.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 24, 2024 11:46:12 GMT -5
Carlos Beltran moved up from 46% to 57% and I'm guessing he does get in at some point (an undeniable five-tool player).
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 24, 2024 11:46:51 GMT -5
i believe that while in high school Mauer was the national player of the year in both football and baseball. One interesting nominee attracted very few votes even though he is the only pitcher in baseball history to (1) win 200 or more games and (2) never have a losing season. Andy Pettitte?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 24, 2024 11:47:21 GMT -5
Carlos Beltran moved up from 46% to 57% and I'm guessing he does get in at some point (an undeniable five-tool player). If Scott Rolen is getting in, Beltran better be, too.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 24, 2024 11:57:50 GMT -5
Carlos Beltran moved up from 46% to 57% and I'm guessing he does get in at some point (an undeniable five-tool player). 6 tool Banging trash cans
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 24, 2024 11:59:46 GMT -5
i believe that while in high school Mauer was the national player of the year in both football and baseball. One interesting nominee attracted very few votes even though he is the only pitcher in baseball history to (1) win 200 or more games and (2) never have a losing season. Andy Pettitte? Andy Pettitte is correct. I don’t know that he merits a spot in the HOF but that single distinction I noted is amazing. Billy Wagner with his 2.31 ERA just missed
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 24, 2024 12:07:25 GMT -5
Billy Wagner with his 2.31 ERA just missed Of all pitchers with at least 800 innings pitched, Wagner's 11.9 K/9 and 33.2% strikeout rate total batters faced are both the highest in major league history. Opposing batters hit for only a .187 average against him, lowest in MLB history with 800+ innings pitched. Wagner also has the lowest hits per nine innings ratio (H/9) in history, for pitchers with 800+ innings, allowing 5.99 hits per nine innings.
And 422 saves.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 24, 2024 12:22:06 GMT -5
How you can get Helton in, or how you can get Ortiz in, but you can't get Manny Ramirez in is baffling. I like the long preamble yesterday during the announcements about character, integrity, and all that. These are guys playing a sport, spitting chaw, scratching their nuts. This isn't a charity award, and in my opinion, not a good-person award.
Steroids or not, Bonds, Clemens, Manny, Arod... undeniably the best players in the history of the sport. These are not fringe guys who got a slight edge. I almost feel like the Hall is accommodating less-dominant players, and compilers, more than the no-doubters, in an effort to try to be "pure." Nonsense. I'm a small hall guy. If they never DOMINATED the game during the era that they played in, then their lifetime of accomplishments must be long and distinguished enough to get them in.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 24, 2024 12:34:06 GMT -5
Only three eligible modern-era pitchers with 250+ wins not in the HOF - Tommy John, Jamie Moyer, Andy Pettitte.
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Post by alum on Jan 24, 2024 12:36:43 GMT -5
i believe that while in high school Mauer was the national player of the year in both football and baseball. One interesting nominee attracted very few votes even though he is the only pitcher in baseball history to (1) win 200 or more games and (2) never have a losing season. And Todd Helton was briefly the starting quarterback at Tennessee before replaced by some guy named Manning.
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Post by alum on Jan 24, 2024 12:52:22 GMT -5
How you can get Helton in, or how you can get Ortiz in, but you can't get Manny Ramirez in is baffling. I like the long preamble yesterday during the announcements about character, integrity, and all that. These are guys playing a sport, spitting chaw, scratching their nuts. This isn't a charity award, and in my opinion, not a good-person award. Steroids or not, Bonds, Clemens, Manny, Arod... undeniably the best players in the history of the sport. These are not fringe guys who got a slight edge. I almost feel like the Hall is accommodating less-dominant players, and compilers, more than the no-doubters, in an effort to try to be "pure." Nonsense. I'm a small hall guy. If they never DOMINATED the game during the era that they played in, then their lifetime of accomplishments must be long and distinguished enough to get them in. I loved watching Manny hit and I have come to conclude that many of those with a positive steroid test ought to be elected, but Manny failed twice and somehow that makes it different. Or, is it possible that the voters are punishing him for one of the great "Manny being Manny" moments of all time.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 24, 2024 14:23:06 GMT -5
Manny was a fearsome hitter since he was a young teenager. His legendary exploits permeate the Bronx and lower New York state baseball scenes. At the end (if not the beginning, or the whole time), he was cheating his ass off with steroids. How many pitchers that was he brutalizing were juicing themselves? I assume they were all "dirty," while breaking no rules that explicitly tested for and banned players for using. And I say that as a massive Red Sox hater.
One AA-level player that I work with said he estimates that during that time (he's a little younger than Manny), about 40% of players he came across were on the sauce. Manny so clearly is a great. As is Bonds. As is Schilling.
Do I know what you'll do with an OJ Simpson-type situation where a player literally KILLS people? No. But for being a d-bag to the media? Or taking drugs that probably don't make you an actually more-skillful baseball player? Come on, this is silliness. Phil Rizzuto over AROD?
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Post by hchoops on Jan 24, 2024 14:42:03 GMT -5
Manny was a fearsome hitter since he was a young teenager. His legendary exploits permeate the Bronx and lower New York state baseball scenes. At the end (if not the beginning, or the whole time), he was cheating his ass off with steroids. How many pitchers that was he brutalizing were juicing themselves? I assume they were all "dirty," while breaking no rules that explicitly tested for and banned players for using. And I say that as a massive Red Sox hater. One AA-level player that I work with said he estimates that during that time (he's a little younger than Manny), about 40% of players he came across were on the sauce. Manny so clearly is a great. As is Bonds. As is Schilling. Do I know what you'll do with an OJ Simpson-type situation where a player literally KILLS people? No. But for being a d-bag to the media? Or taking drugs that probably don't make you an actually more-skillful baseball player? Come on, this is silliness. Phil Rizzuto over AROD? Holy Cow ! Are you saying that steroids were not a significant factors in Barry Bonds’ home run totals ?
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 24, 2024 15:28:17 GMT -5
Are you saying that no pitchers he smashed a home run off of used steroids? Barry Bonds was stealing bases, hitting for average, hitting for power, and winning Gold Gloves before his head was as big as mine. I'm not able to say that it was or wasn't a significant factor. I am arguing that it's irrelevant.
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Post by mm67 on Jan 24, 2024 16:08:50 GMT -5
What were greenie?. Was there use widespread?
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Post by CHC8485 on Jan 24, 2024 16:08:52 GMT -5
I could take it or leave it. If steroid users were voted in, I'd say make it part of their career narrative in the Hall. If they don't make it in, I'm OK too, Because they screwed with many of the all-time records and what makes a player good or great and therefore destroyed and awful lot of enjoyment of the game. (As did routine 3.5 - 4 hour playoff games)
I think the issue most voters have and why the steroid users are not in the HoF is the sportsmanship & character clause in the voting criteria. According to the criteria, Hall of Famers
"shall be chosen on the basis of playing ability, sportsmanship, character, their contribution to the teams on which they played and to baseball in general."
Sportsmanship & character are a bit subjective, but it's not hard to understand that confirmed PED use (after 2003) is not exactly sporting nor a strong display of character in some voters' minds. Nor is it at stretch to throw in those for whom there is pretty credible evidence they were using (Roger Clemens' steroids sent to his home for his wife) as not worthy due to lack of sportsmanship and questionable character.
And before you bring up Ty Cobb, who was a racist SOB by most accounts, the rule didn't exist when he was voted in.
As to David Ortiz - only evidence of PED use is hearsay that his name was on a report that was supposed to be anonymous and untraceable to specific players as part of the 2003 survey testing that determined permanent testing with penalties would go into effect. I'm sure he took a boatload of tests after that and nothing came back positive. So you can say it appears he stopped when the rule became official - unlike Manny others who got caught.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 24, 2024 16:10:21 GMT -5
For Bonds (or for any other player) it’s interesting to me to look at the “similarity scores” that suggest what player is he most similar to through each age. Bonds ended up being most similar to Willie Mays, then Henry Aaron, then Babe Ruth. Did his career start out being similar to those all-time greats through his early seasons? Here’s the similar players for Bonds
Thru age 22= Tom Brunansky Thru age 23= Jay Bruce Thru age 24= Jason Hayward
All good players but not hofers. His production exploded at age 25. Yes we know that not all players careers have the same trajectory , but it really looks suspicious to me. Did he start the steroids at age 25 season?
Compare to Hank Aaron- from ages 21 thru 27 his similarity score had Miguel Cabrera, a certain first ballot HOFer, as most similar each year
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fz
Senior
Posts: 44
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Post by fz on Jan 24, 2024 17:32:16 GMT -5
What were greenie?. Was there use widespread? Greenies use during the 60's - 80's was common knowledge. The NYY's of Mantle Peptone all used.Just like the NFL at that time
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Post by Tom on Jan 24, 2024 18:14:49 GMT -5
I could take it or leave it. If steroid users were voted in, I'd say make it part of their career narrative in the Hall. If they don't make it in, I'm OK too, Because they screwed with many of the all-time records and what makes a player good or great and therefore destroyed and awful lot of enjoyment of the game. (As did routine 3.5 - 4 hour playoff games) I think the issue most voters have and why the steroid users are not in the HoF is the sportsmanship & character clause in the voting criteria. According to the criteria, Hall of Famers "shall be chosen on the basis of playing ability, sportsmanship, character, their contribution to the teams on which they played and to baseball in general." Sportsmanship & character are a bit subjective, but it's not hard to understand that confirmed PED use (after 2003) is not exactly sporting nor a strong display of character in some voters' minds. Nor is it at stretch to throw in those for whom there is pretty credible evidence they were using (Roger Clemens' steroids sent to his home for his wife) as not worthy due to lack of sportsmanship and questionable character. And before you bring up Ty Cobb, who was a racist SOB by most accounts, the rule didn't exist when he was voted in. As to David Ortiz - only evidence of PED use is hearsay that his name was on a report that was supposed to be anonymous and untraceable to specific players as part of the 2003 survey testing that determined permanent testing with penalties would go into effect. I'm sure he took a boatload of tests after that and nothing came back positive. So you can say it appears he stopped when the rule became official - unlike Manny others who got caught. Bonds was an All Star. I think if he stayed clean he could have been a 400 home run hall of famer I think the steroid boys will eventually get in. Probably more likely for a Bonds than a Palmeiro (who was no stud before his apparent steroid jump). I think the precedent was set by Gaylord Perry. Maybe it wasn't steroids, but he cheated to get in
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 25, 2024 5:30:41 GMT -5
i believe that while in high school Mauer was the national player of the year in both football and baseball. One interesting nominee attracted very few votes even though he is the only pitcher in baseball history to (1) win 200 or more games and (2) never have a losing season. And Todd Helton was briefly the starting quarterback at Tennessee before replaced by some guy named Manning. Never knew this. I thought I remembered that he was a punter in college. Pretty cool.
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Post by hc1998 on Jan 25, 2024 7:51:54 GMT -5
And Todd Helton was briefly the starting quarterback at Tennessee before replaced by some guy named Manning. Never knew this. I thought I remembered that he was a punter in college. Pretty cool. Got injured, and the rest was history...but was Tennessee's QB1 at the start of Manning's career. Also had pretty strong pitching stats in baseball
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Post by hc1998 on Jan 25, 2024 7:56:17 GMT -5
Adrian Beltre, Joe Mauer, Todd Helton. Beltre a no-brainer, Mauer with a career WAR in the same vicinity as Bill Dickey and Gabby Hartnett.
Helton gets in with, perhaps, a little boost from that rarefied Rocky Mountain air.
Helton Career Splits Home - .345/.441/.607 Away - .287/.386/.469
Sure Coors helped...but do you know Helton's career road OPS is higher than Yaz' career OPS (along with another notable HOF whose name escapes me right now). I would also argue that as much as Coors could inflate your stats at home, it could lead to deflating them a bit when you adjust on the road (and the team around you is also less successful)...so his career slash line if not for Coors likely would have been a bit better than his road stats suggest.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 25, 2024 9:10:27 GMT -5
For Bonds (or for any other player) it’s interesting to me to look at the “similarity scores” that suggest what player is he most similar to through each age. Bonds ended up being most similar to Willie Mays, then Henry Aaron, then Babe Ruth. Did his career start out being similar to those all-time greats through his early seasons? Here’s the similar players for Bonds Thru age 22= Tom Brunansk Thru age 23= Jay Bruce Thru age 24= Jason Hayward All good players but not hofers. His production exploded at age 25. Yes we know that not all players careers have the same trajectory , but it really looks suspicious to me. Did he start the steroids at age 25 season? Compare to Hank Aaron- from ages 21 thru 27 his similarity score had Miguel Cabrera, a certain first ballot HOFer, as most similar each year Ortiz didn't play enough-- wasn't good enough yet, I guess-- to qualify for any meaningful comparisons on Baseball Reference for his age 21, 22, and 23 seasons. Here are the players he best compares with over time: 24 = Casey Kotchman
25 = Mo Vaughn
26 = Nick Johnson 27 = Adam Laroche 28 = Tony Clark
Nobody to really break the bank for.
29 = Justin Morneau
30 = Mo Vaughn
31 = Carlos Delgado
32 = Jason Giambi
Oh, okay, that's a pretty solid jump at the top of his bell curve. And Giambi was on the sauce, too. Surely his numbers should start to taper off?
Ages 33 - 36 = Mark Teixeira (and Ortiz's stats would outpace Mark, even though he put up excellent numbers as a switch-hitter).
Age 37 = Carlos Delgado, again
Ages 38 - 40 = FRANK FREAKIN THOMAS ARE YOU KIDDING ME
So Ortiz's career was not an arc, but basically an arrow shot up and to the right. Even though his damn feet didn't work at the end of his career. So let's not BS each other. He's got more sauce in him than on my veal parm on Sundays. And I still think he's a Hall of Famer despite not being able to run, throw, or catch.
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Post by Tom on Jan 25, 2024 11:53:09 GMT -5
For Bonds (or for any other player) it’s interesting to me to look at the “similarity scores” that suggest what player is he most similar to through each age. Bonds ended up being most similar to Willie Mays, then Henry Aaron, then Babe Ruth. Did his career start out being similar to those all-time greats through his early seasons? Here’s the similar players for Bonds Thru age 22= Tom Brunansk Thru age 23= Jay Bruce Thru age 24= Jason Hayward All good players but not hofers. His production exploded at age 25. Yes we know that not all players careers have the same trajectory , but it really looks suspicious to me. Did he start the steroids at age 25 season? Compare to Hank Aaron- from ages 21 thru 27 his similarity score had Miguel Cabrera, a certain first ballot HOFer, as most similar each year
So Ortiz's career was not an arc, but basically an arrow shot up and to the right. Even though his damn feet didn't work at the end of his career. So let's not BS each other. He's got more sauce in him than on my veal parm on Sundays. And I still think he's a Hall of Famer despite not being able to run, throw, or catch.
Never given much opportunity but he wasn't as horrible as people think. Whenever there was interleague play he was competent at first base. Most glaring memory for me was game 3 of 2004 World Series. A Cardinal tool a wide turn at 3rd base and Oritz spotted it, threw a strike to 3rd, and got the guy. Throwing from 1st to 3rd isn't exactly something first basemen practice, but Ortiz did it perfectly
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