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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 12, 2024 10:26:09 GMT -5
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Post by newfieguy74 on Mar 12, 2024 10:28:54 GMT -5
Kudos to PVR and HC for having this conversation. I think it's imperative for HC and all Jesuit schools to be completely open about this subject. I'll be watching.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 12, 2024 10:52:56 GMT -5
I like the book and the fact that this topic is being aired out. But in wording of the announcement, I wonder how the Jesuits "enslaved" these 272 people. I do not believe they actually captured free Blacks and enslaved them...or did they? The phrase "enslaved by the Jesuits" is a bit unclear. It might be more correct to say "held by the Jesuits" or "owned by the Jesuits." Of course neither phrase, no matter how correct it may be, does anything to make this story acceptable.
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Post by Tom on Mar 12, 2024 12:39:16 GMT -5
From an announcement by Holy Cross: I'm curious what the obligations today are
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 12, 2024 13:09:12 GMT -5
From an announcement by Holy Cross: I'm curious what the obligations today are Whatever Vince and TPTB say they are. Probably much more will be said than done. It is easy to identify rightful victims but when they are all dead it gets murky. A voluntary check-off to add a surcharge to all current donations, similar to the MA State Income Tax 5.85% option for those who wish to give more could target the proceeds to distant relatives of the victims identified by the Jesuit Genealogy Service.
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Post by alum on Mar 12, 2024 13:45:33 GMT -5
The Swarns book is excellent as is another one which I read a couple of years ago which addresses the Jesuit ownership of enslaved persons and also tells the fascinating story of actual court trials by which some of these people were able to secure their freedom. The author, William Thomas of the Univ. of Nebraska, had ancestors in Price George's County and his research led him to realize that they too enslaved people. He put his money where his mouth (or pen or keyboard) was and donated his royalties in reparations. yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300261509/a-question-of-freedom/
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 12, 2024 14:02:55 GMT -5
The cupboard is bare for the Irish seeking reparations from the British. Ireland has a higher standard of living than the UK now I believe.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 12, 2024 15:16:51 GMT -5
I like the book and the fact that this topic is being aired out. But in wording of the announcement, I wonder how the Jesuits "enslaved" these 272 people. I do not believe they actually captured free Blacks and enslaved them...or did they? The phrase "enslaved by the Jesuits" is a bit unclear. It might be more correct to say "held by the Jesuits" or "owned by the Jesuits." Of course neither phrase, no matter how correct it may be, does anything to make this story acceptable. The latest acceptable term for a slave holder is an “enslaver”. (So, using the latest acceptable term, “Jesuit enslavers” means Jesuit slave holders…so “enslaved by Jesuits” means slaves held by Jesuits).
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 12, 2024 15:31:34 GMT -5
Thanks for helping me to get up to date on correct speech. I guess anyone who "owned" an enslaved person was an enslaver as well as those who made the institution possible (sailors on ships that carried slaves, for one example). Would that also apply to those Africans who captured members of rival tribes and sold them into slavery to start the process? What would be the obligations of those African tribes today?
Regarding obligations...there are both legal and ethical obligations. Do the people of this country, many of whom are descended from families that were not in North America at any time during the period of slavery, owe for something they never did? Of course not. However, there is IMHO an ethical obligation to offer something to descendents of these people that can be a symbolically important way to start acknowledging what was done to innocent people.
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Post by Tom on Mar 12, 2024 16:07:27 GMT -5
Thanks for helping me to get up to date on correct speech. I guess anyone who "owned" an enslaved person was an enslaver as well as those who made the institution possible (sailors on ships that carried slaves, for one example). Would that also apply to those Africans who captured members of rival tribes and sold them into slavery to start the process? What would be the obligations of those African tribes today? Regarding obligations...there are both legal and ethical obligations. Do the people of this country, many of whom are descended from families that were not in North America at any time during the period of slavery, owe for somegthing they never did? Of course not. However, there is IMHO an ethical obligation to offer something to descendents of these people that can be a symbolically important way to start acknowledging what was done to innocent people. How many generations separation should that ethical obligation exist for? Is there a limit? In an extreme hypothetical, is there an ethical obligation for the Egyptians to offer something to the Israelis for enslaving them up until about 1300 B.C.? I think Georgetown has offered descendants of the 272 legacy status for purposes of admission decisions
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Post by hcpride on Mar 12, 2024 16:36:15 GMT -5
Thanks for helping me to get up to date on correct speech. I guess anyone who "owned" an enslaved person was an enslaver as well as those who made the institution possible (sailors on ships that carried slaves, for one example). Would that also apply to those Africans who captured members of rival tribes and sold them into slavery to start the process? What would be the obligations of those African tribes today? Regarding obligations...there are both legal and ethical obligations. Do the people of this country, many of whom are descended from families that were not in North America at any time during the period of slavery, owe for something they never did? Of course not. However, there is IMHO an ethical obligation to offer something to descendants of these people that can be a symbolically important way to start acknowledging what was done to innocent people. I've always wondered if there is some sort of ethical obligation owed by families descended from enslaved persons to the descendants of Union soldiers killed or grievously injured in the war to end slavery. While slavery (still ongoing in parts of the world) has been around for thousands of years (if not more) it is highly unusual in human history for mass numbers of free men to die in an effort to stamp it out.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 12, 2024 16:43:05 GMT -5
I like the book and the fact that this topic is being aired out. But in wording of the announcement, I wonder how the Jesuits "enslaved" these 272 people. I do not believe they actually captured free Blacks and enslaved them...or did they? The phrase "enslaved by the Jesuits" is a bit unclear. It might be more correct to say "held by the Jesuits" or "owned by the Jesuits." Of course neither phrase, no matter how correct it may be, does anything to make this story acceptable. I assume the Jesuits went to the auction, asked for and may have received a 10% Clerical discount and paid cash derived from the collection plate. You can't varnish the ugly truth. Did the Jesuits treat their enslaved more humanely than other enslavers? Maybe not if they didn't view them as free people. Did they credit their enslaved as having a soul and eligible for heaven? It's probably in the book. Did they give their enslaved communion and last rites, perform marriages, baptism and confirmations? As a precursor to the recent Priest Abuse scandal throughout the Catholic Church did they abuse men, women or children? I hate to say it but the answer is probably yes.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 12, 2024 18:09:53 GMT -5
Without the suppression of the Jesuits in France (1761-64) partly as a consequence of their commercial enterprises in the West Indies there would be no college in Worcester named Holy Cross. These commercial enterprises produced high-value agricultural products which were shipped to France. The enterprises consisted of large plantations relying on slave labor. The number of slaves was far greater than those held by the Maryland province. (Archaeological digs at these plantations have unearthed iron neck collars.) Jesuit missionaries at the time acted as representatives of both the Holy See and the French king. They counterbalanced efforts by the English king and Protestant Britain in the exploration and conquest of North America. With the Jesuits suppressed, the French king and the Holy See turned to ordinary French priests as their replacements,. One such priest was Claude Bouchard de la Poterie, who arrived in Boston in 1788. Abbe Burchard said the first Catholic mass in Massachusetts, and perhaps in all of New England. thewestendmuseum.org/history/era/west-boston/the-west-end-hosts-the-first-catholic-service-in-boston/When Abbe Bouchard arrived in Boston, he had brought with him a relic of the True Cross. (The relic is a fraud, but that's another story.) Abbe Bouchard subsequently proceeded to establish the first Catholic church in Boston, which he named the Church of the Holy Cross, and intended that the church be a place where a relic of the True Cross could be venerated. Fenwick chose to name the College of the Holy Cross after the Church [Cathedral] of the Holy Cross.
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Mar 12, 2024 18:41:51 GMT -5
Query PP: why did the Jesuit's successful commercial enterprises in the West Indies (successful due to the reliance on slave labor) result in them being suppressed in France? Was there an active anti slave movement in France as early as 1761?
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 12, 2024 19:03:57 GMT -5
Thanks for helping me to get up to date on correct speech. I guess anyone who "owned" an enslaved person was an enslaver as well as those who made the institution possible (sailors on ships that carried slaves, for one example). Would that also apply to those Africans who captured members of rival tribes and sold them into slavery to start the process? What would be the obligations of those African tribes today? Regarding obligations...there are both legal and ethical obligations. Do the people of this country, many of whom are descended from families that were not in North America at any time during the period of slavery, owe for something they never did? Of course not. However, there is IMHO an ethical obligation to offer something to descendants of these people that can be a symbolically important way to start acknowledging what was done to innocent people. I've always wondered if there is some sort of ethical obligation owed by families descended from enslaved persons to the descendants of Union soldiers killed or grievously injured in the war to end slavery. While slavery (still ongoing in parts of the world) has been around for thousands of years (if not more) it is highly unusual in human history for mass numbers of free men to die in an effort to stamp it out. That is an interesting point. But slavery, while a factor in the war and the reason why some men joined to fight in the War, it was not the primary cause of the War Between the States so that is a very different situation.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 12, 2024 19:09:31 GMT -5
I like the book and the fact that this topic is being aired out. But in wording of the announcement, I wonder how the Jesuits "enslaved" these 272 people. I do not believe they actually captured free Blacks and enslaved them...or did they? The phrase "enslaved by the Jesuits" is a bit unclear. It might be more correct to say "held by the Jesuits" or "owned by the Jesuits." Of course neither phrase, no matter how correct it may be, does anything to make this story acceptable. I assume the Jesuits went to the auction, asked for and may have received a 10% Clerical discount and paid cash derived from the collection plate. You can't varnish the ugly truth. Did the Jesuits treat their enslaved more humanely than other enslavers? IN SOME CASES, YES. TREATMENT WAS CERTAINLY WORSE IN THE DEEP SOUTH. Maybe not if they didn't view them as free people. Did they credit their enslaved as having a soul and eligible for heaven? YES. It's probably in the book. Did they give their enslaved communion and last rites, perform marriages, baptism and confirmations? Again...YES.As a precursor to the recent Priest Abuse scandal throughout the Catholic Church did they abuse men, women or children? I hate to say it but the answer is probably yes. The way some individuals (a minority) have acted here in the 20th and 21st centuries cannot be used to explain practices centuries earlier.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 12, 2024 19:46:22 GMT -5
Query PP: why did the Jesuit's successful commercial enterprises in the West Indies (successful due to the reliance on slave labor) result in them being suppressed in France? Was there an active anti slave movement in France as early as 1761? They ran very large sugar plantations, and also refined the sugar. They apparently also traded in spices. These commercial enterprises provided substantial financial support for the Jesuit system of education in the province of Paris. The Jesuits were particularly interested in educating children of the middle class, or upper middle class. This cost money, and records of the accounts for the province reveal that this effort at educational outreach, so to speak, was hemorrhaging francs. In the course of the Seven Years War (French and Indian War on this side of the pond) the British navy captured ten ships that had sailed from the West indies with their cargo of sugar. This cargo was already under contract to French merchants, who had already paid the Jesuits for it. The money received for the cargo of sugar had been spent, and now the Jesuits were in commercial breach, having neither the sugar, nor the money to repay the merchants. This was not the only factor that led to their suppression in France, but it was a major factor. A recent article in "America" on the Jesuit plantations in Haiti. These seem to have existed only to support the Jesuit mission in that country. www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2022/06/17/jesuits-slavery-haiti-plantations-243171
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Post by hcpride on Mar 12, 2024 19:50:56 GMT -5
I've always wondered if there is some sort of ethical obligation owed by families descended from enslaved persons to the descendants of Union soldiers killed or grievously injured in the war to end slavery. While slavery (still ongoing in parts of the world) has been around for thousands of years (if not more) it is highly unusual in human history for mass numbers of free men to die in an effort to stamp it out. That is an interesting point. But slavery, while a factor in the war and the reason why some men joined to fight in the War, it was not the primary cause of the War Between the States so that is a very different situation. To the extent it matters, modern historians now speak of slavery as the primary cause of the war: “The central cause of the war was the dispute over whether slavery would be permitted to expand into the western territories, leading to more slave states, or be prevented from doing so, which many believed would place slavery on a course of ultimate extinction.” (For the sake of brevity I’m quoting Wikipedia: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 12, 2024 19:57:02 GMT -5
Serious historians (yes, they are "modern") would not agree with your Wikipedia statement. BTW, few use Wikipedia as a serious source for anything. Some entries are good but many are weak or even outright wrong.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 12, 2024 20:00:26 GMT -5
Serious historians (yes, they are "modern") would not agree with your Wikipedia statement. BTW, few use Wikipedia as a serious source for anything. Some entries are good but many are weak or even outright wrong. That was for the sake of brevity. (I thought I typed that disclaimer). You may be unfamiliar with the direction of modern scholarship on this particular topic. Where traditional scholars said “States Rights was the primary cause of the Civil War” modern scholars emphasize “States Rights to have slaves was the primary cause of the Civil War, secession, etc”.
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xhaav
Sophomore
Posts: 27
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Post by xhaav on Mar 12, 2024 20:17:22 GMT -5
Without the suppression of the Jesuits in France (1761-64) partly as a consequence of their commercial enterprises in the West Indies there would be no college in Worcester named Holy Cross. These commercial enterprises produced high-value agricultural products which were shipped to France. The enterprises consisted of large plantations relying on slave labor. The number of slaves was far greater than those held by the Maryland province. (Archaeological digs at these plantations have unearthed iron neck collars.) Jesuit missionaries at the time acted as representatives of both the Holy See and the French king. They counterbalanced efforts by the English king and Protestant Britain in the exploration and conquest of North America. With the Jesuits suppressed, the French king and the Holy See turned to ordinary French priests as their replacements,. One such priest was Claude Bouchard de la Poterie, who arrived in Boston in 1788. Abbe Burchard said the first Catholic mass in Massachusetts, and perhaps in all of New England. thewestendmuseum.org/history/era/west-boston/the-west-end-hosts-the-first-catholic-service-in-boston/When Abbe Bouchard arrived in Boston, he had brought with him a relic of the True Cross. (The relic is a fraud, but that's another story.) Abbe Bouchard subsequently proceeded to establish the first Catholic church in Boston, which he named the Church of the Holy Cross, and intended that the church be a place where a relic of the True Cross could be venerated. Fenwick chose to name the College of the Holy Cross after the Church [Cathedral] of the Holy Cross. Wow! Interesting story, especially for someone with majority French lineage (me).
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 12, 2024 20:18:43 GMT -5
Cute. I am very familiar with modern scholarship on the Civil War. When you generalize to States Rights as a primary cause of the War you leave out several others (of which I am sure you are aware). Here is a list of "primary" causes of the Civil War (in no particular order): 1. States’ Rights 2. The Missouri Compromise 3 The Dred Scott Decision 4. The Abolitionist Movement 5. John Brown’s Raid (Harper’s Ferry) and Trial 6. Slavery in America (yes it is on the list but only as one cause of many) 7. Harriet Tubman 8. Uncle Tom’s Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe 9. Secessionism 10. Election of Lincoln *11 Newspapers (and the few men who owned them and controlled public debate) It was a far more complicated than some with agendas might have others believe.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 12, 2024 20:27:33 GMT -5
Cute. I am very familiar with modern scholarship on the Civil War. When you generalize to States Rights as a primary cause of the War you leave out several others (of which I am sure you are aware). Here is a list of "primary" causes of the Civil War (in no particular order): 1. States’ Rights 2. The Missouri Compromise 3 The Dred Scott Decision 4. The Abolitionist Movement 5. John Brown’s Raid (Harper’s Ferry) and Trial 6. Slavery in America (yes it is on the list but only as one cause of many) 7. Harriet Tubman 8. Uncle Tom’s Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe 9. Secessionism 10. Election of Lincoln *11 Newspapers (and the few men who owned them and controlled public debate) It was a far more complicated than some with agendas might have others believe. Modern historians consider this list convincing evidence regarding the centrality of the issue of slavery to the Civil War.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 12, 2024 21:03:47 GMT -5
Not really. Who are you rererrig to as these "modern historians?" After all, there were troops of the Union army who put down their guns and went home rather than fight to end slavery. The Confederacy ended formal slavery just before the end of the war - something which Gen Longstreet had long desired. There were states that fought for the Union that had slavery. The Emancipation Proclamation freed no slaves. It applied to only those states still in rebellion where it had no authority. Slaves were freed by the US (only after Lincoln's death) by means of Constitutional ammendments. Lincoln said that he would allow slavery if he believed it could end secession. He wanted freed slaves sent back to Africa, which he believed to be their home. He ordered Union Generals to stop freeing slaves since that deprived people of "their property" without proper compensation. That was why General Ben Butler referred to slaves as "contraband" and freed them by using that route - in defiance of Lincoln's order. This could go on and on. These points cannot be lumped together in the name of "brevity" and still keep the complexity of history alive. In short (for brevity) I know of virtually no serious historians (not those who use history to further an agenda) who make the claim you describe here.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 12, 2024 21:45:51 GMT -5
This has been a good education for me.
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