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Post by hcpride on Apr 18, 2024 17:15:44 GMT -5
Interesting "Pro Palestinian Campus Encampment" arrests on the lawn earlier today at Columbia...we don't see that sort of pro-Palestinian/Anti Israel activity up on Mount Saint James. New York City police officers in riot gear began making dozens of arrests at Columbia University Thursday afternoon, after school president Minouche Shafik asked for help clearing protesters from a pro-Palestinian encampment.
In a letter sent to the NYPD, Shafik said "the encampment and related disruptions pose a clear and present danger" to the school.
"With great regret, we request the NYPD's help to remove these individuals," Shafik wrote.
The school's student-run newspaper, the Columbia Spectator, reported that "over 100 individuals" were arrested at the "Gaza Solidarity Encampment" beginning around 1 pm. The protest and encampment were organized by activists who want Columbia University to divest from companies that operate in Israel. Protesters also want a cease-fire in Gaza and the creation of a Palestinian state.
The clash at Columbia came a day after the university's leaders, including Shafik, testified before a Congressional hearing in Washington DC that antisemitism was a growing concern.
Columbia trustee Claire Shipman responded to one lawmaker's question, saying "we have a moral crisis on our campus."
www.npr.org/2024/04/18/1245642588/nypd-breaks-up-pro-palestinian-protest-at-columbia-university
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Post by mm67 on Apr 18, 2024 19:39:17 GMT -5
I agree with Columbia's decision to end the campus protests. Not all the protesters were Columbia/Barnard students. Non-student agitators were involved and they have their own agenda. I suspect many students were outraged at the loss of life and joined in the sloganeering.. However, I think many agitators may view these protests and demands as a tactical opportunity in their continuing war by any means to destroy Israel. The protests have moved to city sidewalks off campus. Would hope the students get their butts back to class quickly to avoid flunking out of college.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Apr 19, 2024 9:18:19 GMT -5
Send them to Gaza. They can stand in solidarity there.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 19, 2024 12:40:16 GMT -5
Send them to Gaza. They can stand in solidarity there. They are smart enough to wear masks, other than that I'm not impressed by their collective intelligence.
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Post by hchoops on Apr 19, 2024 13:36:36 GMT -5
Send them to Gaza. They can stand in solidarity there. Getting political ?
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 19, 2024 14:30:20 GMT -5
Send them to Gaza. They can stand in solidarity there. Occupy Gaza? Short line for that sign up sheet. Why can't students at an academic institution respond to current events in an academic way by doing research, writing papers with new ideas, holding symposiums etc.? They think they can muscle their administrators but that won't work because administrators like having a job.
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Post by alum on Apr 19, 2024 14:40:26 GMT -5
Send them to Gaza. They can stand in solidarity there. Occupy Gaza? Short line for that sign up sheet. Why can't students at an academic institution respond to current events in an academic way by doing research, writing papers with new ideas, holding symposiums etc.? They think they can muscle their administrators but that won't work because administrators like having a job. It is a little before my time, but it is my understanding that in the 1960s and early 1970s the US was engaged in a war in some far away place and people said the same thing about students who protested it.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 19, 2024 14:54:21 GMT -5
Occupy Gaza? Short line for that sign up sheet. Why can't students at an academic institution respond to current events in an academic way by doing research, writing papers with new ideas, holding symposiums etc.? They think they can muscle their administrators but that won't work because administrators like having a job. It is a little before my time, but it is my understanding that in the 1960s and early 1970s the US was engaged in a war in some far away place and people said the same thing about students who protested it. Those students have grown up and are now pulling their mega gifts from fine institutions so the leverage has shifted.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 19, 2024 17:17:00 GMT -5
Occupy Gaza? Short line for that sign up sheet. Why can't students at an academic institution respond to current events in an academic way by doing research, writing papers with new ideas, holding symposiums etc.? They think they can muscle their administrators but that won't work because administrators like having a job. It is a little before my time, but it is my understanding that in the 1960s and early 1970s the US was engaged in a war in some far away place and people said the same thing about students who protested it. One MAJOR difference between then and Columbia's spectacle (FWIW) is that there are many Jewish students on campus who are subject to the antisemitic chants and signs (and confrontations). A hallmark of the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel crew on the ‘elite’ campuses of late. Longsuffering's point (in bold) is well taken regarding the current issue. Off the topic but I don't think the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel 'protestors' grasp the meaning of their two favorite words ('genocide' and 'apartheid').
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Post by alum on Apr 19, 2024 18:30:30 GMT -5
It is a little before my time, but it is my understanding that in the 1960s and early 1970s the US was engaged in a war in some far away place and people said the same thing about students who protested it. One MAJOR difference between then and Columbia's spectacle (FWIW) is that there are many Jewish students on campus who are subject to the antisemitic chants and signs (and confrontations). A hallmark of the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel crew on the ‘elite’ campuses of late. Longsuffering's point (in bold) is well taken regarding the current issue. Off the topic but I don't think the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel 'protestors' grasp the meaning of their two favorite words ('genocide' and 'apartheid'). One can disagree with the students (antisemitism is wrong) but, “Shut up and go to the library” isn’t the answer. If former hippies who are now investment bankers don’t get that, I’m disappointed.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Apr 19, 2024 19:42:01 GMT -5
One MAJOR difference between then and Columbia's spectacle (FWIW) is that there are many Jewish students on campus who are subject to the antisemitic chants and signs (and confrontations). A hallmark of the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel crew on the ‘elite’ campuses of late. Longsuffering's point (in bold) is well taken regarding the current issue. Off the topic but I don't think the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel 'protestors' grasp the meaning of their two favorite words ('genocide' and 'apartheid'). One can disagree with the students (antisemitism is wrong) but, “Shut up and go to the library” isn’t the answer. If former hippies who are now investment bankers don’t get that, I’m disappointed. Former hippies can pat themselves on the back and think their protests ended the war in Vietnam…they didn’t. They lost the support of the average American, helped get Nixon elected and helped extend the war several years. These pro-Palestinian protestors are just a bunch of over privileged kids that should be ignored.
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Post by alum on Apr 19, 2024 20:04:43 GMT -5
One can disagree with the students (antisemitism is wrong) but, “Shut up and go to the library” isn’t the answer. If former hippies who are now investment bankers don’t get that, I’m disappointed. Former hippies can pat themselves on the back and think their protests ended the war in Vietnam…they didn’t. They lost the support of the average American, helped get Nixon elected and helped extend the war several years. These pro-Palestinian protestors are just a bunch of over privileged kids that should be ignored. Don’t you think the bombing hospitals and humanitarian workers will cause Americans to lose support for Israel? But that’s not the point. The point is that protest is good for democracy even when the message is wrong.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 19, 2024 20:34:42 GMT -5
One can disagree with the students (antisemitism is wrong) but, “Shut up and go to the library” isn’t the answer. If former hippies who are now investment bankers don’t get that, I’m disappointed. Former hippies can pat themselves on the back and think their protests ended the war in Vietnam…they didn’t. They lost the support of the average American, helped get Nixon elected and helped extend the war several years. These pro-Palestinian protestors are just a bunch of over privileged kids that should be ignored. Uh, I think it went in the opposite direction. I watched Walter Cronkite stop supporting the war, then Tip O'Neill stop supporting the war, then my father stop supporting the war. It was like the Vietnam "Domino Effect" in reverse. I don't actually remember whether Cronkite or Tip went first but remember my father, a WWII veteran crediting Tip O'Neill as the reason he stopped supporting the Vietnam War. There's a Bruce Springsteen song where he talks about his father always saying "wait until the Army gets ahold of you, that will straighten you out" or something similar. Then when Bruce got drafted but was medically rejected, his father quietly said "good." I think the country gradually changed it's opinion against the war based on the 50,000 American Soldier deaths when the U.S. had not been attacked, so it wasn't possible for the protesters to have lost the support of the country because the country moved in their direction.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Apr 19, 2024 20:36:47 GMT -5
Former hippies can pat themselves on the back and think their protests ended the war in Vietnam…they didn’t. They lost the support of the average American, helped get Nixon elected and helped extend the war several years. These pro-Palestinian protestors are just a bunch of over privileged kids that should be ignored. Don’t you think the bombing hospitals and humanitarian workers will cause Americans to lose support for Israel? But that’s not the point. The point is that protest is good for democracy even when the message is wrong. They can protest all they want. They deserve nothing but to be ignored.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 19, 2024 22:24:24 GMT -5
One MAJOR difference between then and Columbia's spectacle (FWIW) is that there are many Jewish students on campus who are subject to the antisemitic chants and signs (and confrontations). A hallmark of the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel crew on the ‘elite’ campuses of late. Longsuffering's point (in bold) is well taken regarding the current issue. Off the topic but I don't think the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel 'protestors' grasp the meaning of their two favorite words ('genocide' and 'apartheid'). One can disagree with the students (antisemitism is wrong) but, “Shut up and go to the library” isn’t the answer. If former hippies who are now investment bankers don’t get that, I’m disappointed. Not sure about your notion of “Shut up and go to the library”. (Longsuffering asked, “Why can't students at an academic institution respond to current events in an academic way by doing research, writing papers with new ideas, holding symposiums etc.?“ That would seem more productive than the tiresome and antisemitic signage and sloganeering in support of Palestine, Gaza, Hamas, etc., etc.)
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Post by alum on Apr 20, 2024 5:19:28 GMT -5
I disagree. I see no difference between what long suffering said and “Shut up and dribble” (Ingraham to Lebron) and “Shut up and sing” (social media to Taylor Swift.)
Protest is good. The answer to speech we don’t like is more speech; not less. I have no problem with a private school enforcing clearly described limitations on hateful speech and placing reasonable time, place, and manner limitations but the idea that public demonstrations ought not be a valuable form of expression is simply wrong.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 20, 2024 6:12:09 GMT -5
We'll disagree whether recommending a student symposium is tantamount to saying "shut up and go to the library" relative to the matter at hand but, beyond that, we witnessed antisemitism and trespass (not to mention intimidation and a climate of fear) at Columbia. Hence the reasonable request of the college president for the 100 NYPD arrests on campus.
That, of course, has nothing to do with lawful public demonstrations (and their value as public expression) writ large.
On a happier note, there is some entertainment in reading and hearing the protestor fantasy language regarding 'genocide' and 'apartheid'. Only topped by the inevitable 'Lesbians for Liberation" and Queers for Palestine" spotted in the Columbia protest encampment. Lets hope those weren't actual Columbia students and/or representative of the learning going on there.
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Post by alum on Apr 20, 2024 6:17:44 GMT -5
We'll disagree whether recommending a student symposium is tantamount to saying "shut up and go to the library" relative to the matter at hand but, beyond that, we witnessed antisemitism and trespass (not to mention intimidation and a climate of fear) at Columbia. Hence the reasonable request of the college president for the 100 NYPD arrests on campus. That, of course, has nothing to do with lawful public demonstrations (and their value as public expression) writ large. On a happier note, there is some entertainment in reading and hearing the protestor fantasy language regarding 'genocide' and 'apartheid'. Only topped by the inevitable 'Lesbians for Liberation" and Queers for Palestine" spotted in the Columbia protest encampment. Let’s hope those weren't actual Columbia students and/or representative of the learning going on there. I don’t think that Israel’s reaction is genocide, but, as a former soldier, do you think it has become disproportionate?
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Post by hcpride on Apr 20, 2024 7:01:24 GMT -5
We'll disagree whether recommending a student symposium is tantamount to saying "shut up and go to the library" relative to the matter at hand but, beyond that, we witnessed antisemitism and trespass (not to mention intimidation and a climate of fear) at Columbia. Hence the reasonable request of the college president for the 100 NYPD arrests on campus. That, of course, has nothing to do with lawful public demonstrations (and their value as public expression) writ large. On a happier note, there is some entertainment in reading and hearing the protestor fantasy language regarding 'genocide' and 'apartheid'. Only topped by the inevitable 'Lesbians for Liberation" and Queers for Palestine" spotted in the Columbia protest encampment. Let’s hope those weren't actual Columbia students and/or representative of the learning going on there. I don’t think that Israel’s reaction is genocide, but, as a former soldier, do you think it has become disproportionate? Well, many more Palestinian Gazans than Israelis have been killed in the recent events. (Whether that is due to Hamas' tactics of hiding amongst their own civilians or Israel's callous disregard for Palestinian civilian life is a different question.) The military uses the word proportional (or disproportionate) in a different way. In the context of urban warfare in very densely populated areas the balance of potential military gains versus likelihood of civilian deaths (proportionality) is a particularly involved calculus. I have been part of that routine US decision cycle and believe Israel makes the same sort of analysis. (Certainly, Israel could completely destroy Palestine and kill all the civilians [and Hamas] rather easily if it really wanted to just as it could have refrained from any sort of Gazan incursion/bombing following the slaughter.)
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 20, 2024 7:44:01 GMT -5
The 9-11 airline hi-jackers and the September 7th(?) Kibbutz attackers caught great military powers napping. The deaths and expense of the retribution after both has been breathtaking.
"Fool me once shame on me" and then fixing security lapses might have saved lives and treasure but we'll never know.
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Post by matunuck on Apr 21, 2024 17:09:44 GMT -5
White House statement on the situation at Columbia University:
“While every American has the right to peaceful protest, calls for violence and physical intimidation targeting Jewish students and the Jewish community are blatantly Antisemitic, unconscionable, and dangerous – they have absolutely no place on any college campus, or anywhere in the United States of America. And echoing the rhetoric of terrorist organizations, especially in the wake of the worst massacre committed against the Jewish people since the Holocaust, is despicable. We condemn these statements in the strongest terms.”
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Post by Dean Wormer on Apr 21, 2024 19:33:03 GMT -5
I think this thread has pretty much run its course and at best is barely tangential to Holy Cross.
Locking the thread before it goes off the rails.
And please remember this is for Non-Sports Discussions about Holy Cross.
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