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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 8, 2017 11:05:15 GMT -5
No. As discussed repeatedly here, it has more to do with the composition of the student body which is more female (obviously) and, more importantly, their interests are much more varied with so many more options than to just go to a basketball/football game or go to the library and study. The wired campus makes for an assortment of other amusements and the extensive number of sports teams makes so many more "participants" than "observers." And when they are not participating themselves in games or practices and just observing, they can spend time watching LAX, field hockey, soccer, ice hockey, etc., etc., etc. of their roommates or classmates. And, yes, some of these students have little interest in athletics and instead focus on helping the Worcester community or practice the fine arts. In the 60's, many did the former but few did the latter. While "losing" doesn't help the situation, I don't think that is the main reason, just one of many factors. We need to build momentum by winning, having some level of excitement with our style of play, and playing games at times where students will show up. Ralph's brand of basketball wasn't exciting.
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Post by ncaam on Feb 8, 2017 11:13:15 GMT -5
Winning was, however. And I'm not just thinking about bball losing but ALL losing.
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Post by JRGNYR on Feb 8, 2017 11:14:06 GMT -5
We need to build momentum by winning, having some level of excitement with our style of play, and playing games at times where students will show up. Ralph's brand of basketball wasn't exciting. Agreed. His brand of basketball was meant to win games in the 50s if necessary. It was only exciting inasmuch as the defense gave HC a chance to compete against teams that were more talented during non-conference play and the postseason.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 8, 2017 11:14:28 GMT -5
We need to build momentum by winning, having some level of excitement with our style of play, and playing games at times where students will show up. Ralph's brand of basketball wasn't exciting. It was a heck of a lot more exciting that the current brand of slow down, stand around, chuck 3's, emotion-less blah. His teams had life, they played with emotion, and there was a toughness about them that was enjoyable to watch.
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Post by ncaam on Feb 8, 2017 11:20:14 GMT -5
Is attendance continuing to fall? Students too?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 8, 2017 11:25:39 GMT -5
Ralph's brand of basketball wasn't exciting. Agreed. His brand of basketball was meant to win games in the 50s if necessary. It was only exciting inasmuch as the defense gave HC a chance to compete against teams that were more talented during non-conference play and the postseason. Exactly right. Winning was exciting. Competing against top 100 teams was exciting. The play itself wasn't exactly exciting. Although, to me, I did enjoy flummoxing opponents that were ostensibly more talented than us.
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Post by JRGNYR on Feb 8, 2017 11:28:22 GMT -5
Agreed. His brand of basketball was meant to win games in the 50s if necessary. It was only exciting inasmuch as the defense gave HC a chance to compete against teams that were more talented during non-conference play and the postseason. Exactly right. Winning was exciting. Competing against top 100 teams was exciting. The play itself wasn't exactly exciting. Although, to me, I did enjoy flummoxing opponents that were ostensibly more talented than us. This is wading into territory that good offense leads to good basketball, while good defense leads to bad basketball. Both can be winning basketball though, which is ultimately what matters.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 8, 2017 11:35:12 GMT -5
Agreed. His brand of basketball was meant to win games in the 50s if necessary. It was only exciting inasmuch as the defense gave HC a chance to compete against teams that were more talented during non-conference play and the postseason. Exactly right. Winning was exciting. Competing against top 100 teams was exciting. The play itself wasn't exactly exciting. Although, to me, I did enjoy flummoxing opponents that were ostensibly more talented than us. You sure the play wasn't excited? Do you remember the ESPNU game at the Hart Center in Willard's 2nd to last season (07-08)? The building was rocking, the emotion from the players was palpable, Andrew Keister was concussed and bleeding all over the floor, Willard and Flannery were going at each other. Take a look back at the attendance in RW's final seasons and compare it with what we're seeing now.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 8, 2017 11:37:51 GMT -5
Exactly right. Winning was exciting. Competing against top 100 teams was exciting. The play itself wasn't exactly exciting. Although, to me, I did enjoy flummoxing opponents that were ostensibly more talented than us. You sure the play wasn't excited? Do you remember the ESPNU game at the Hart Center in Willard's 2nd to last season (07-08)? The building was rocking, the emotion from the players was palpable, Andrew Keister was concussed and bleeding all over the floor, Willard and Flannery were going at each other. Take a look back at the attendance in RW's final seasons and compare it with what we're seeing now. You shouldn't have said "style of play" then because nothing in this post touches on "style of play."
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Post by JRGNYR on Feb 8, 2017 11:41:11 GMT -5
Exactly right. Winning was exciting. Competing against top 100 teams was exciting. The play itself wasn't exactly exciting. Although, to me, I did enjoy flummoxing opponents that were ostensibly more talented than us. You sure the play wasn't excited? Do you remember the ESPNU game at the Hart Center in Willard's 2nd to last season (07-08)? The building was rocking, the emotion from the players was palpable, Andrew Keister was concussed and bleeding all over the floor, Willard and Flannery were going at each other. Take a look back at the attendance in RW's final seasons and compare it with what we're seeing now. Let's be fair here. At that time the program had been to the postseason 5 of the previous 7 years, had an NIT victory, 3 close calls in the NCAAs and was a perennial league contender. The games were exciting because the program itself was exciting, plus there was a rivalry with Bucknell, Flannery playing the role of the heel. The building was rocking because the program was rocking. That atmosphere was at least 7 years in the making. And it was all dismantled in short order. It takes time to get back to that again.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 8, 2017 11:41:30 GMT -5
You sure the play wasn't excited? Do you remember the ESPNU game at the Hart Center in Willard's 2nd to last season (07-08)? The building was rocking, the emotion from the players was palpable, Andrew Keister was concussed and bleeding all over the floor, Willard and Flannery were going at each other. Take a look back at the attendance in RW's final seasons and compare it with what we're seeing now. You shouldn't have said "style of play" then because nothing in this post touches on "style of play." The style of play included emotion and toughness.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 8, 2017 12:42:32 GMT -5
During the CRW years there was an endless drumbeat on the message board about how bad and how boring the offense was. We heard that on every thread as I recall. We all, however, enjoyed the wins.....
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Post by nhteamer on Feb 8, 2017 21:08:03 GMT -5
BUMP
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Post by hc87 on Feb 9, 2017 20:25:52 GMT -5
Would you say this is the lowest level of interest (in terms of football and basketball) HC has ever had with both programs being scholarship? (The late 1990s non-scholarship programs were in a world all of their own in terms of fan enthusiasm.)
I think it has to be....
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 9, 2017 21:00:17 GMT -5
No, I don't think so. The nadir was perhaps 3-4 years ago, IMHO. But you go right on thinking it is now.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 9, 2017 21:17:37 GMT -5
I dunno....it just seems that even with the NCAA trip, the Fordham game at Yankee Stadium etc there seems to be a marked disinterest in general with both programs right now with students/alumni/general populace alike.
Posting here seems to be down overall, attendance at Fitton/Hart is dreadful....there just seems to be an overall lack of enthusiasm/interest with the two premier programs at HC that I haven't seen before.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 9, 2017 21:30:45 GMT -5
I agree there seems to be fewer posts and it also seems to be fewer posters under the new Crossports banner. In part, no doubt, because of the "one man (pardon) - one poster rule", no more aliases. and some of the people who posted very frequently are gone for any number of reasons, including banishment. Where, for example, is GateRaider? Perhaps he has lost interest in HC sports or, more likely, the elimination of politics where he posted innumerable times has caused him to move elsewhere.
The days of the broad and rabid support for HC football and basketball are over for all the reasons I suggested awhile ago. However, fan support is a relative thing. I have no doubt that getting onto a consistently winning track will enhance support among the marginal Crusader supporters. But even then, I would be shocked if the student attendance at football and basketball games reaches what it was in the 60's when there was little else to do or even later when the school was co-ed but prior to the age of social media and the rapid expansion of women's sports courtesy of title IX. All attractive diversions from the big two sports.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 9, 2017 21:54:59 GMT -5
Believe me, I'm not looking for a fight...we're on the same team here as it were....I just think there is an overall malaise with both programs right now. I don't think it can completely be chalked up to HC being coed, the growth of social media etc. etc.
Obviously winning cures a million sins....but it just feels (to me anyway) that we are "going through the motions" with both programs right now.....I know, the expansion of Hart, the bettah football schedules etc etc....but I just don't see those things paying any dividends yet....God willing, hopefully they will....let's just say, I'm skeptical at the moment.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 9, 2017 22:05:50 GMT -5
Come on, we are investing huge new sums of $$$$ in athletics, so isn't it ridiculous to say "we are going through the motions" ? You can say factually that we have not seen results, you can state the opinion that we have bad plans or strategies, but I just don't see how you can suggest that we are not making a big effort to improve our programs.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 9, 2017 22:15:31 GMT -5
I don't disagree in general....I will say this, much of this (Hart expansion, football schedules) will be "lipstick on a pig" if we don't turn these programs around in the next few years. All I'm saying (and teamer too I believe by starting this thread) is that as I type this, general interest in scholarship football/basketball has never been lower at HC than it is right now.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Feb 9, 2017 22:18:51 GMT -5
Believe me, I'm not looking for a fight...we're on the same team here as it were....I just think there is an overall malaise with both programs right now. I don't think it can completely be chalked up to HC being coed, the growth of social media etc. etc. Obviously winning cures a million sins....but it just feels (to me anyway) that we are "going through the motions" with both programs right now.....I know, the expansion of Hart, the bettah football schedules etc etc....but I just don't see those things paying any dividends yet....God willing, hopefully they will....let's just say, I'm skeptical at the moment. OK 87, I'll play along. Rather than moaning every nite w/o offering any suggestions other than changing hoop leagues, what do YOU think should be done to fix the issues that are of concern to you, and what would be your game plan to execute these things?
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Post by hc87 on Feb 9, 2017 22:28:21 GMT -5
Hoop league has to be changed for starters....I know that wasn't my option...but it's really the school's only option.
Football is badly in need of a coaching change...need new blood/new regime.
If I could wave my magic wand, we would be Villanova in athletics tomorrow.
Essentially, the school has to start thinking in how to make that happen rather than building new practice facilities in order to lose to Lafayette in basketball and lose by 40 to Syracuse in football.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 9, 2017 23:45:28 GMT -5
Do you think the new facilities will have any positive effect on recruiting or team/player development?
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Post by ncaam on Feb 10, 2017 8:34:47 GMT -5
Do you think the new facilities will have any positive effect on recruiting or team/player development? No, still a hs gymnasium. BTW I believe gr and the moderator had a tiff. GR left because he felt insulted. Fwiw
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 10, 2017 9:42:51 GMT -5
I can't believe that the new indoor practice facility will not help football recruiting
I'd love to get the input of the former football players in our group--would they have seen the new facility as a positive when they were being recruited???
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