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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 9, 2017 0:45:21 GMT -5
Kudos to those who remember Jeff Jones pulling this off against poor Emmett Davis.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 9, 2017 8:09:07 GMT -5
This is a classic play that any coach should anticipate
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Post by crusader1970 on Feb 10, 2017 17:08:33 GMT -5
The ironic thing is that it takes place within the "no charge" circle under the hoop.
I guess that area only applies if you have the ball.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Feb 10, 2017 17:38:23 GMT -5
A few days earlier, VCU snatched an even more implausible victory from the jaws of defeat against St. Bonaventure. Bonnies took the lead, 66-65, with half a tic left in regulation, but were then assessed a technical when their fans rushed the court thinking the game was over. JeQuan Lewis (same guy who drew the charge and made the winning FTs in the GM game) sank the free throw, game went into OT, where VCU won. You can't make this stuff up. Links to the stories for both games below. www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=400918472www.vcuramnation.com/2017/02/vcu-loses-wins-54-53/
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Post by bison137 on Feb 10, 2017 17:42:22 GMT -5
The ironic thing is that it takes place within the "no charge" circle under the hoop. I guess that area only applies if you have the ball. In this case, the offensive player was run over by a defender, so the charge rule does not apply.
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Post by bison137 on Feb 10, 2017 17:52:32 GMT -5
Kudos to those who remember Jeff Jones pulling this off against poor Emmett Davis. Emmett Davis' blunder was worse, however. In his game, there were only 0.2 seconds left - meaning by rule no American player was allowed to catch and shoot. The ONLY way for them to score was a really long pass and a tip-in. Virtually impossible, even if Davis had his whole squad stand by their own bench. At least VCU still had enough time, in theory, to pass out beyond mid-court and shoot. Still very long odds, but not impossible - which should have been the case for Colgate back in 2007.
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Post by hchoops on Feb 10, 2017 18:02:52 GMT -5
Tough to blame Davis or the GW coach unless one knows that they did not prepare their teams for this play.
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Post by bison137 on Feb 10, 2017 18:09:12 GMT -5
Tough to blame Davis or the GW coach unless one knows that they did not prepare their teams for this play. Dont know about GW, but the talk ten years ago was that the Colgate defenders were unaware of the possibility of that play. Given the time remaining in the Colgate game, there was really no need to even guard the inbound passer. The only thing thing to worry about was a 90 foot pass and an instantaneous tip-in.
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Post by hchoops on Feb 10, 2017 18:24:11 GMT -5
Tough to blame Davis or the GW coach unless one knows that they did not prepare their teams for this play. Dont know about GW, but the talk ten years ago was that the Colgate defenders were unaware of the possibility of that play. Given the time remaining in the Colgate game, there was really no need to even guard the inbound passer. The only thing thing to worry about was a 90 foot pass and an instantaneous tip-in. Tough to rely on "the talk'.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Feb 10, 2017 18:42:52 GMT -5
I seem to remember Princeton (Carril) pulling this on someone years ago......
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Post by bison137 on Feb 10, 2017 19:10:17 GMT -5
Dont know about GW, but the talk ten years ago was that the Colgate defenders were unaware of the possibility of that play. Given the time remaining in the Colgate game, there was really no need to even guard the inbound passer. The only thing thing to worry about was a 90 foot pass and an instantaneous tip-in. Tough to rely on "the talk'. Some of the talk was from his own player.
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Post by res on Feb 10, 2017 19:26:03 GMT -5
A few days earlier, VCU snatched an even more implausible victory from the jaws of defeat against St. Bonaventure. Bonnies took the lead, 66-65, with half a tic left in regulation, but were then assessed a technical when their fans rushed the court thinking the game was over. A much reported story. The only problem is, it never happened which the league belatedly admitted. Worcester native Matt Mobley hit his 9th 3-pointer of the day with 0.4 left on the clock. Bedlam ensued but only a CBS Sports cameraman and one 15 year old high school kid, who bumped into official Gary Prager, were on the court during the deadball period. After the shot the ball bounded to a security guard who walked up the court with it while keeping his eye on the crowd. A VCU player ran over grabbed the ball and inbounded it. One of the officials waved his had to start the clock, VCU took and missed a shot as the clock ran to 0.00 and the LED lights around the backboard went off, game over. About two seconds later, the students stormed the court. Only after that did the officials go back to the scorer's table and look at the monitors. A technical foul was assessed after the fact by Prager for exactly what is still not clear. Unfortunately, that evening the league issued a statement that backed up the officials for assessing a technical for a "premature" court storm. The next day, when faced with the evidence, it backtracked though it indicated a technical should have been called because of the actions of either the security guard or the 15-year old kid. The league also indicated it was disciplining the officials essentially for mispresentation of events and failing to control the game properly. Even though ESPN.com picked up on the retraction, no one including ESPN's TV lineup seemed to pick up on it. The league then ordered coachs Will Wade and Mark Schmidt not to talk about it in their weekly press conferences. Here's a link from a couple of days ago from CBS Sports Network that gets most of it correct: sports.yahoo.com/video/inside-college-basketball-vcu-defeats-025949509.html
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Post by res on Feb 10, 2017 19:33:03 GMT -5
And as far as the GW game goes, Lewis had one foot out of bounds when he drew the "charge". VCU had a pretty fortunate four days.
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Post by bison137 on Feb 10, 2017 21:46:15 GMT -5
And then there was Fairfield's Mitch Buonaguro, who ran onto the court when his player hit what he thought was the game-winning shot at the end of a MAAC tournament game. The only problem was that there was still a second or two on the clock. He was t'd up, and the two free throws cost them the game.
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Post by bison137 on Feb 10, 2017 21:48:20 GMT -5
And as far as the GW game goes, Lewis had one foot out of bounds when he drew the "charge". VCU had a pretty fortunate four days. If a defender slams into an offensive player who happens to have a foot on the sideline at the time, does that mean a foul can't be called?
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Post by res on Feb 11, 2017 8:10:15 GMT -5
Beats me, '137, but I would think it might depend on the type of foul called. Let's say the offensive player is hit while in the act of shooting. If he has already stepped out of bounds, I would think it would be a no-call unless the contact was ruled intentional in which case I would think the official would have to call some sort of flagrant. But, as I said, I've got no clue.
Back to the game in question, the consensus on the A10 board including the opinion of a lower-level college referee who sometimes posts there is that Lewis can't establish legal position with one foot over the endline and thus the call that was made was incorrect.
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Post by bison137 on Feb 11, 2017 12:34:58 GMT -5
Beats me, '137, but I would think it might depend on the type of foul called. Let's say the offensive player is hit while in the act of shooting. If he has already stepped out of bounds, I would think it would be a no-call unless the contact was ruled intentional in which case I would think the official would have to call some sort of flagrant. But, as I said, I've got no clue. Back to the game in question, the consensus on the A10 board including the opinion of a lower-level college referee who sometimes posts there is that Lewis can't establish legal position with one foot over the endline and thus the call that was made was incorrect. I don't think that is correct. It seems like people are forgetting the player who was hit was an OFFENSIVE player. He does not need to establish legal guarding position since he is not a defender. I have seen fouls called in the NBA when an offensive player was hit when he was completely out of bounds as he ran the baseline around a screen. I am fairly sure the rule in college would be about the same.
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Post by res on Feb 13, 2017 13:23:40 GMT -5
You are correct, though it appears changes are brewing. This, from Seth Davis: www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/02/13/hoop-thoughts-burning-questions-gonzaga-villanova-kansas"At the moment Lewis set that screen, his left foot was out of bounds. The next day, I got a text message from an officiating source telling me that Lewis’s screen should have been ruled illegal. I sent a text to another official who has refereed in the Final Four, and he confirmed the interpretation that a player cannot set a screen out of bounds. So I wrote on Twitter that the refs had gotten the call wrong, and George Washington should have won the game. Turns out, all three of us were wrong. While the rules do explicitly state that a defensive player cannot take a charge out of bounds, there is nothing in the book that says an offensive player cannot set a screen while standing out of bounds. When I spoke with Bryan Kersey, the coordinator of officials for the Atlantic 10, he confirmed that by rule, the referees had done the right thing. Still, there seems to broad agreement that a player should not be allowed to set a screen if he is out of bounds. Therefore, later this week, Art Hyland, who is secretary editor of the rules committee, will issue an interpretation fixing this omission in the rulebook. Once that interpretation is posted, the rule change goes into effect immediately. Hyland told me on Sunday that he expects the committee will revisit this situation at its meetings next May and discuss whether to write the change into the rulebook."
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Post by bison137 on Feb 13, 2017 14:16:19 GMT -5
I am surprised that officials didn't know that rule.
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 13, 2017 14:34:46 GMT -5
There are several rules that official may not know (or at least the latest form of the ruling). That happens in every sport (and why, as an official, I review the rule book and the new rules every season). I love it when a coach quotes a rule by heart that was changed some years back. If we want the athletes to get a fair shake, officials need to know the rules (in their current form) at every game. (Something of a pet peeve of mine.)
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Post by hchoops on Feb 13, 2017 15:57:03 GMT -5
There are several rules that official may not know (or at least the latest form of the ruling). That happens in every sport (and why, as an official, I review the rule book and the new rules every season). I love it when a coach quotes a rule by heart that was changed some years back. If we want the athletes to get a fair shake, officials need to know the rules (in their current form) at every game. (Something of a pet peeve of mine.) are you a hoops official ?
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 13, 2017 16:54:10 GMT -5
Once back in the day I was...now just track and field (starter) or swimming (timer / finish judge).
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