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Post by sader1970 on Feb 9, 2017 8:49:56 GMT -5
As happens frequently on Crossports, as Crusader fans we want championships on a regular basis - NOW!
But college teams take a while to build and there is 100% turnover in any team every 4 years +/- depending on redshirts and transfers and other small deviations.
One thing I will say about CWC is he does not seem to practice the standard POTUS excuse of blaming his predecessor for any lack of success. And he DID win the PL tournament in the most amazing fashion.
I am frustrated with the inconsistency of our team, especially when laden with seniors from whom you would expect consistency, if nothing else. Certainly, some of this has been due to injuries. I am also greatly frustrated at not only the lack of rebounds but the purposeful lack of effort to try to get rebounds.
But I never played the game competitively nor coached, save my CYO undefeated streak and have to defer to the infinitely greater experience and expertise of our coach.
I was curious about the circumstances of Carmody's reign at Princeton where he had so much success and is perhaps the closest situation to Holy Cross in that it is an academic first environment even more so than Northwestern but competing more against like-minded league opponents.
So, what did CWC inherit at Princeton compared to Holy Cross? We know he followed Pete Carril whose last record at Princeton in '95-'96 was 22-7 and 12-2 in the IL. Carmody came in for the '96-'97 season and improved on that with a 24-4 record and undefeated 14-0 in the IL, presumably with mostly Carril's players. The following year he did even better at 27-2 overall and again undefeated in the IL at 14-0. That's starting with a 28 game league winning streak. You figure roughly half those players were Carril recruits. The next year, a tail off but one we'd be happy to have as the Tigers went 22-8 and 11-3 in the IL, just one loss more than Carril's final year. In Carmody's last year at Princeton, he went 19-11 and again 11-3 in the IL.
So the bottom line for me is, I will try to temper my frustration with the team especially since he delivered a league championship his first year and really try to be a little more patient until more of his recruits find their way onto the court as I have no doubt the players he is trying to get are ones that can play in his system.
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Post by HC92 on Feb 9, 2017 9:10:00 GMT -5
Carmody's tenure at HC will be judged almost entirely on how the entering class of 2017 pans out. If they are not a very strong group, he likely will have a very mediocre overall tenure at HC. With only one available schollie for 2018, his next opportunity to get a significant influx of talent will be 2019. That group likely won't pay strong dividends until at least 2020-2021. So, it's class of 2017 or bust. I still think several of the younger guys have chances to be very strong players as upperclassmen, but even the most optimistic projections for their development will still require a lot of help from the 2017s if we want to regularly finish at or near the top of the PL.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Feb 9, 2017 9:27:04 GMT -5
I still think several of the younger guys have chances to be very strong players as upperclassmen, but even the most optimistic projections for their development will still require a lot of help from the 2017s right away if we want to regularly finish at or near the top of the PL. Fixed it. If we pen in KC, PB, and JF (an offensive misfit for the PO) as starters, we're almost certainly going to need one or two of the freshmen to start. |
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 9, 2017 9:37:25 GMT -5
I still think several of the younger guys have chances to be very strong players as upperclassmen, but even the most optimistic projections for their development will still require a lot of help from the 2017s right away if we want to regularly finish at or near the top of the PL. Fixed it. If we pen in KC, PB, and JF (an offensive misfit for the PO) as starters, we're almost certainly going to need one or two of the freshmen to start. Lafayette did OK with three frosh starters last night.  With them they are a different club than then we saw the first time around. |
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Post by hc6774 on Feb 9, 2017 9:44:23 GMT -5
I think that we are impatient for that one player who makes the others better by the quality and consistency of his play. Bill Bradley turned Princeton from a football school to a basketball school.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 9, 2017 9:48:14 GMT -5
I think the incoming recruit class could be an outstanding one. I'm really excited, as one example, by Austin Butler. We saw his highlight reel when we signed him and most every poster was excited by what appeared to be incredible range on his three pointers. Then we learned more about him--QB of the football team, star javelin thrower--the guy is an all around athlete. More importantly we saw as we followed this year's games that he's not just a long distance bomber (some times great HS shooters have a hard time getting shots off in college against defenders who are much quicker and taller than their HS defenders) but a guy who got a bunch of twos in close as well. He also rebounds. Now I am not "putting too much pressure" on him and I do not expect him to get 15 points a game as a freshman but I think he will be a big asset. A couple of the other recruits also impress this non-expert as likely early contributors. If I could place a futures bet on this class I would do so. I think hc92 hits this one right on the money
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 9, 2017 10:00:22 GMT -5
I was curious about the circumstances of Carmody's reign at Princeton where he had so much success and is perhaps the closest situation to Holy Cross in that it is an academic first environment even more so than Northwestern but competing more against like-minded league opponents. So, what did CWC inherit at Princeton compared to Holy Cross? We know he followed Pete Carril whose last record at Princeton in '95-'96 was 22-7 and 12-2 in the IL. Carmody came in for the '96-'97 season and improved on that with a 24-4 record and undefeated 14-0 in the IL, presumably with mostly Carril's players. The following year he did even better at 27-2 overall and again undefeated in the IL at 14-0. That's starting with a 28 game league winning streak. You figure roughly half those players were Carril recruits. The next year, a tail off but one we'd be happy to have as the Tigers went 22-8 and 11-3 in the IL, just one loss more than Carril's final year. In Carmody's last year at Princeton, he went 19-11 and again 11-3 in the IL. I posted this over the weekend, but I'll summarize again here. In Princeton's NCAA win in Carmody's 2nd year, 100% of the scoring and ~95% of the minutes played belonged to Juniors and Seniors who were recruited by Carril and initially taught the PO by Carril. The slide that started in Carmody's final 2 years continued in JTIII's first two years, as Carril's influence grew farther and farther apart from the program. ---- I don't think anyone expected two championships in Carmody's first two years, but speaking for myself, my impatience comes things such as this rigid style, lack of player development, 1-trick pony defense that is atrocious if the other team doesn't turn it over, lack of emotion and toughness with Carmody's style of play, refusal to adapt gameplans based on opposing teams, abysmal recruiting returns so far. I am far more concerned that it does not appear that the program is developing and taking any steps forward than I am with a Win/Loss record. |
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Post by hchoops on Feb 9, 2017 10:13:12 GMT -5
I believe that it is not as easy as some think to continue and even surpass a legend's(Carrill"s) success just because CBC had many/ most of the players that Carill recruited.
CBC still coached them to those wins at Princeton.
Should they not count on his record.?
the losses in his early years at Northwestern with his predecessor's players are counted against his record.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 9, 2017 10:15:19 GMT -5
Hoops, don't you know that Carm won because of Carrill's players, but, if he had lost, it would have been because he's a poor coach?
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Post by dharry13 on Feb 9, 2017 10:26:28 GMT -5
This incoming class reminds me of the 92/93 class in terms of numbers and size. Frank P. - 6'7; Mashburn 6'7; Farkes - 6'3; Walker 6'4 and Breslin - 6'1
They basically had a PG, SG, Small forward, and two swings 3/4; same idea with Niego/Faw as swings and then Copeland - small forward at 6'4 with Butler and Green in the back court.
We could only be so lucky if this class is close to that group, but what made that group special is they were all close friends and great guys. If this class coming in together stays together in terms of its play and personality, they have a shot.
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Post by ncaam on Feb 9, 2017 10:37:06 GMT -5
Hoops, don't you know that Carm won because of Carrill's players, but, if he had lost, it would have been because he's a poor coach? Correction: poor recruiting |
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 9, 2017 10:38:14 GMT -5
Hoops, don't you know that Carm won because of Carrill's players, but, if he had lost, it would have been because he's a poor coach? Correction: poor recruiting Can't judge until year five with all of his guys, right? |
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Post by ncaam on Feb 9, 2017 10:38:47 GMT -5
Correction: poor recruiting Can't judge until year five with all of his guys, right? |
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Post by ncaam on Feb 9, 2017 10:42:04 GMT -5
Judging late Princeton, nw'ern, and early HC.....not looking to can him....players are not playing hard in my opinion...did you see his post game with lutsk?...he knows it....similar to what csk and cmb faced...but of course you know that better than anyone
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Post by HC92 on Feb 9, 2017 10:46:44 GMT -5
For the record, i do think Jack Stevens will become a very solid player for us despite the lack of PT as a frosh. For those craving that big, physical 5, he could well be it. He's also a pretty good passer and decent shooter. Very few centers at our level contribute meaningfully in their first year. I'm sayin' there's a chance.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 9, 2017 10:50:19 GMT -5
I believe that it is not as easy as some think to continue and even surpass a legend's(Carrill"s) success just because CBC had many/ most of the players that Carill recruited. CBC still coached them to those wins at Princeton. Should they not count on his record.? the losses in his early years at Northwestern with his predecessor's players are counted against his record. That's not what I said. The fact of the matter is that Carmody's two most successful years (by a wide margin) were his first two years, which occurred 20 years ago, and occurred with a roster that was (a) brought in by Pete Carril and (b) taught the system that Carmody uses by Pete Carril. Since then, Princeton took a step back in his last two years there, then he wasn't able to get Northwestern into the NCAA Tournament or even the top half of the Big 10 in 13 chances, and now, outside of a miracle 4-game run last March, his tenure at HC has been extremely underwhelming. Of course Carmody gets credit for those wins at Princeton, but if you look at the sample size over all 19 season, it is extremely clear that those first two years were an aberration from all other results. |
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Post by HC92 on Feb 9, 2017 10:59:11 GMT -5
I would love for us to get to a point where 41-19, 22-6 over a two year period is considered a step back.
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 9, 2017 11:11:46 GMT -5
Hoops, don't you know that Carm won because of Carrill's players, but, if he had lost, it would have been because he's a poor coach? Of course! lol  |
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 9, 2017 11:12:03 GMT -5
Let me quote myself:
So, even with Carril's players, Carmody improved on his predecessor's record in his first two years and in the second year, presumably that 1/4 of the players were his. We can debate this back and forth, and I guess that is the purpose of Crossports, but as I said, as for me I will try to be more patient.
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Post by HC92 on Feb 9, 2017 11:26:28 GMT -5
Didn't Carmody have a significant role in recruiting the players he inherited given that he was the top assistant under Carril?
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Post by WCHC Sports on Feb 9, 2017 11:27:36 GMT -5
My frustration is not directly with CBC, but he is at the helm of a program that has drawn my frustration over the course of the last several years. It has trended in the wrong direction, diluted its talent, weakened its schedule, lost hold of the top of the Patriot League, seen Bucknell stay consistent near the top, and both Lehigh and Bucknell produce strong NBA players.
Whoever is here-- player, coach, AD-- has the job to "turn the ship around." They didn't make the mess, but I can only comment on this current group's success or failure in doing that job. Otherwise, I am indianhoop bemoaning the PL, HC70 defending MB, or any other poster that beats the dead horse deader.
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Post by timholycross on Feb 9, 2017 12:26:16 GMT -5
Let me quote myself: So, even with Carril's players, Carmody improved on his predecessor's record in his first two years and in the second year, presumably that 1/4 of the players were his. We can debate this back and forth, and I guess that is the purpose of Crossports, but as I said, as for me I will try to be more patient. Sounds a lot like the guy at Bucknell right now. Jrs & Srs are not his, sophs may or may not be (he got hired in March of the year those kids came in; consider KC vis-à-vis MP; maybe there's a JP or two that chose to go elsewhere as well). Freshmen definitely his. Team was good before he arrived and is doing as well as that, save for that bump-in-the-road last March. |
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Post by hchoops on Feb 9, 2017 12:29:22 GMT -5
Let me quote myself: So, even with Carril's players, Carmody improved on his predecessor's record in his first two years and in the second year, presumably that 1/4 of the players were his. We can debate this back and forth, and I guess that is the purpose of Crossports, but as I said, as for me I will try to be more patient. Sounds a lot like the guy at Bucknell right now. Jrs & Srs are not his, sophs may or may not be (he got hired in March of the year those kids came in; consider KC vis-à-vis MP; maybe there's a JP or two that chose to go elsewhere as well). Freshmen definitely his. Team was good before he arrived and is doing as well as that, save for that bump-in-the-road last March. A pretty big bump, until he wins one when he is top seed. bison fans may be concerned after last night. |
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Post by timholycross on Feb 9, 2017 12:34:43 GMT -5
My frustration is not directly with CBC, but he is at the helm of a program that has drawn my frustration over the course of the last several years. It has trended in the wrong direction, diluted its talent, weakened its schedule, lost hold of the top of the Patriot League, seen Bucknell stay consistent near the top, and both Lehigh and Bucknell produce strong NBA players. Whoever is here-- player, coach, AD-- has the job to "turn the ship around." They didn't make the mess, but I can only comment on this current group's success or failure in doing that job. Otherwise, I am indianhoop bemoaning the PL, HC70 defending MB, or any other poster that beats the dead horse deader. 2017-18 will tell the tale. There are only 1-2 spots open the year after, if 3 or 4 of the incoming 5 don't look like they can play; not even the Bill Carmody version of HC70 will be saying "just wait until"... One thing I'm looking forward to, recruits aside, is AT leaving. I actually like him more than most here, but I think the multiple-midgets-on-the-court, which goes back to AT paired with JB, has run its course. |
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Post by timholycross on Feb 9, 2017 12:36:12 GMT -5
Sounds a lot like the guy at Bucknell right now. Jrs & Srs are not his, sophs may or may not be (he got hired in March of the year those kids came in; consider KC vis-à-vis MP; maybe there's a JP or two that chose to go elsewhere as well). Freshmen definitely his. Team was good before he arrived and is doing as well as that, save for that bump-in-the-road last March. A pretty big bump, until he wins one when he is top seed. bison fans may be concerned after last night. I'm trying not to take shots at the guy. I like the team he's putting out there. And I don't like the team (not its individuals, but the collective group) HC is putting out there. |
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