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Post by rgs318 on Apr 9, 2017 3:52:24 GMT -5
Thanks, breezy. The article My Crusade for the Crusader by Hanna Seariac, Chief Web Editor I found to be outstanding. Her use of logic and the argument she constructs are both impressive. This is the type of writing I remember from my days on the hill. I agree with Hanna, but even if I did not, I feel she must get credit for her approach to this topic in light of the apparent lack of diversity that is going on in many ways at HC in this "discussion" of our nickname and mascot. BTW - I also like her avoidance of ageism and the use of phrases and labels such as "the old farts..."
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 9, 2017 8:00:30 GMT -5
As an old fart, I will take the liberty of going on a genealogical tangent.
I can trace my direct ancestral line back to Teutomer, Duke of Dacia Ripensisa, a Frankish general (302-363) and at the time of his death, in the service of Julian the Apostate, emperor (361-363) Julian was several emperors after Constantine, and was the last non-Christian emperor of the Roman Empire. Julian tried to bring back Rome to what it was before In Hoc Signo Vinces. (Teutoner was living when In Hoc Signo Vinces occurred.)
Julian died in the battle of Samarra Iraq in 363, against the Persians, and, given the date, Teutomer may have died in the same campaign. (And nota bene, Mohammed has not yet been born.) Source: Ammianus Marcellinus, Roman historian.
During this period, Dacia Ripensisa (current day Bulgatia/Romania), was the base of the XIII Legion, the Gemina. The XIII Legion was the legion that crossed the Rubicon with one Julius Caesar.
Teutoner's son was Flavius Richomeres, consul of Rome (consul was an annual position,, and there were two consuls, ranking immediately below the emperor. holding this position every year.)
Subsequently, and along the way, an ancestor is St. Arnoul, the married bishop of Metz (582-640) Still venerated in the R.C. church, feast day July 18, patron saint of beer brewers. There may be another saint as well, also married obviously. He is one of two alternatives. There is one patricide, and at least several murders..
^^^^ None of this tracing could have been done without the Internet. I am certain that my medieval ancestors had no clue as to their forebears.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 9, 2017 8:16:39 GMT -5
Impressive genealogy (impressive research as well), Pak.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 9, 2017 8:30:25 GMT -5
Impressive genealogy (impressive research as well), Pak. The line before 1000 CE was much easier to do than the line between 1000 and 1750. The only way to get most/all the names between 1500 and 1750 may be to read a 79 page manuscript, available only on microfilm in the National Library of Ireland. The English branch of the line is well-documented, but it too falls apart after the family supported Mary Queen of Scots against Elizabeth I. The Irish branch, well...... in the phrasing of a book on Irish peerage, 'fell into obscurity after the last baron de Neville was sent to the Tower of London in 1535 for treason, and all the family lands forfeited'. When you are no longer one of them (the nobility) nobody cares. I say easier to do, only because of the documentation that exists on the Web. Impossible to do, 20 years ago, probably even ten years ago. But -- and its a huge BUT, the family has to be nobility the entire period one is seeking to trace. ___________________________________ Most of Marcellinus' History of Rome is lost, the volumes that remain fortuitously cover the period of my earliest ancestor. I have not read through them yet. (And as the ancestor was Frankish, there probably is no earlier lineage to be found to those who ruled Rome pre 300 CE.) penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/ammian/home.html
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Post by sarasota on Apr 9, 2017 11:29:27 GMT -5
PP- Are you OK?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 9, 2017 12:24:55 GMT -5
Only be worried if I trace my roots to Noah!
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Post by Chu Chu on Apr 9, 2017 13:15:31 GMT -5
Very impressive, PP. Wow.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 9, 2017 16:06:39 GMT -5
Very impressive, indeed. My niece has traced our family back a few generations--my grandparents came from Galway but I didn't know much before that. The small details you learn can be interesting, e.g. learning that a great ( or maybe great great) grandfather had been fined by the magistrate for grazing his sheep on the lord's (or maybe just a rich guy) lawn....
No nobility found yet...,
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 9, 2017 16:35:02 GMT -5
By my count, the ancestral line stretches back 23 generations from 1025 and the birth of Richard de Neville. I will say that when its 'family', it tends to make history 'alive'. For example, generation 2 (from the beginning) is Flavius Richomeres. His father, generation 1, was a general in the service of Emperor Julian the Apostate. So presumably a supporter of Julian's quest to return the old pagan ways. Flavius Richomeres' brother was Flavius Bauto, who succeeded him as consul. Bauto's daughter was named Aelia Eudoxia. Where Bauto stood on Christianity is uncertain, but as a senator, he objected to the removal of the pagan Alter of Victory from the Senate. So perhaps ambivalent at best. Aelia marries the eastern emperor, subsequently becomes an Augusta, meaning she can wear the royal purple, and coins can be circulated with her image. Here is one of the coins, not the reverse side. She became friends with St. John Chrysostom, and supported him. But within one powerful family, one can sense the tension between those who yearned for a return to pagan Rome, and those who were on the Christian 'bandwagon', so to speak.
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Post by Tom on Apr 10, 2017 8:53:44 GMT -5
Breezy - thank you for that link. I'm glad they printed a dissenting view.
I bumped into a kid who is currently a senior and I asked him about the issue. His opinion is that the vast majority of the students don't care. They have no objection to the Crusader and all talk of change is faculty driven. On the other hand, even though there is very little student opposition to the name Crusader, there wouldn't be a huge uprising to oppose the vocal minority that wants the name changed
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Post by Chu Chu on Apr 10, 2017 10:21:17 GMT -5
Aelia Eudoxia was quite the babe!
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Post by WCHC Sports on Apr 10, 2017 10:31:20 GMT -5
theholycrosscrusader.com/2017/03/31/a-crusade-on-the-crusader/This is disgusting. Besides grammatical errors, the tone of this column, particularly at the end, is telling. The author is perturbed about the lack of a perceived "buzz" around campus for an issue that sound minds-- and the majority of students at HC, apparently-- are not offended by. " My paraphrasing: "Why aren't more people outraged that the KKK used our mascot as their newspaper name? We have an obligation to think about changing the school paper's name in response! If one student is offended, we have the obligation to all listen to them and heed their concerns!" The Crusader newspaper would more appropriately have the obligation to continue the tradition of good writing and reporting, commentary on meaningful events on campus and in the community, than to react snap-necked to outlandish behavior by the morally corrupt or impassioned few. We should set the tone of the conversation rather than seek out, nay, SOLICIT, the offended-ness of weaker hearts and minds. This is not the HC I support.
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Post by beaven302 on Apr 10, 2017 11:32:27 GMT -5
My paraphrasing: "Why aren't more people outraged that the KKK used our mascot as their newspaper name? We have an obligation to think about changing the school paper's name in response! If one student is offended, we have the obligation to all listen to them and heed their concerns!." "Outraged" -- one of the most overused words in modern journalism. What ever happened to "annoyed," "perturbed," "irritated," etc.?
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Post by WCHC Sports on Apr 10, 2017 13:28:27 GMT -5
Outraged is a way to imply that the person who ISN'T in agreement is way out of line to disagree with such an egregious offense. Journalism uses too many opinion-based words rather than facts. Leave the adjectives out it.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 10, 2017 17:20:22 GMT -5
Not clear to me what qualities / virtues of the historical crusaders the HC crusader is intended to emulate. ____________________
For those who might value the crusader efforts to capture and hold the Holy Land, I offer Charles, son on Pepin de Herstal., for consideration. Charles did more to save Europe from Islam than all the crusades combined. For his success, he was named Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer).
Unfortunately, I can't find a good nickname that salutes Charles and his achievement, other than perhaps the Dukes. (He was a duke, prince, and ultimately, King of the Franks.) No licensing deals with Fenway Franks seem likely. Or perhaps the Chevaliers. (Cavaliers is taken.) Chevaliers de la Croix. knights of the Cross?
Disclaimer: Charles Martel is in my direct ancestral line, so my opinions are not entirely objective.
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Post by ncaam on Apr 10, 2017 17:34:08 GMT -5
Martel and Sobieski...say no more
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Post by Chu Chu on Apr 11, 2017 9:54:38 GMT -5
We could be the Charlies"!
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Post by WCHC Sports on Apr 11, 2017 10:08:42 GMT -5
Charlies...Charles... Charlemagne, or Charles the Great. He was a man, a great man. This implies that men are great, but there is no accompanying "women are great, too/equally," so this mascot proposal is inherently sexist. I am now offended. How are more people not OUTRAGED?
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Post by Chu Chu on Apr 11, 2017 10:11:13 GMT -5
I don't think that you have picked up on the real argument of the piece. Instead, you have made up an argument that you disagree with. The article clearly states that, in regard to the Klu Klux Klan, The point of this is that because an increasing number of people see the term Crusader as an indication of hate and intolerance, because of this and other examples, they may get an inaccurate and very unflattering view of Holy Cross or the student newspaper, because of our choosing and using the Crusader name. We may have a quite different idea of what is communicated than what the reality is. This is not about "being hurt" or "political correctness", but rather, it is a question of how do we accurately project the true image and aspirations of our great college and it's student newspaper to those who do not know us. The issue raises many questions for me. For example, does this have any affect on who and how many students apply to Holy Cross? We need to take the big picture and the long view, and not be reactionary!
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Post by Chu Chu on Apr 11, 2017 10:12:23 GMT -5
Charlies...Charles... Charlemagne, or Charles the Great. He was a man, a great man. This implies that men are great, but there is no accompanying "women are great, too/equally," so this mascot proposal is inherently sexist. I am now offended. How are more people not OUTRAGED? You are out of date! I have a granddaughter named "Charley".
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Post by zambonihomie13 on Apr 11, 2017 10:43:29 GMT -5
I don't think that you have picked up on the real argument of the piece. Instead, you have made up an argument that you disagree with. The article clearly states that, in regard to the Klu Klux Klan, The point of this is that because an increasing number of people see the term Crusader as an indication of hate and intolerance, because of this and other examples, they may get an inaccurate and very unflattering view of Holy Cross or the student newspaper, because of our choosing and using the Crusader name. We may have a quite different idea of what is communicated than what the reality is. This is not about "being hurt" or "political correctness", but rather, it is a question of how do we accurately project the true image and aspirations of our great college and it's student newspaper to those who do not know us. The issue raises many questions for me. For example, does this have any affect on who and how many students apply to Holy Cross? We need to take the big picture and the long view, and not be reactionary! I guess one could argue that this very piece and the questions that it raises are mostly reactionary. Our use of the term "Crusader" pre-dates the newspaper in question, and while the article claims that it is not a reaction to the current political climate, I think at the very least the current political climate set in motion the themes that led to this discussion. I'm also wary of the notion that "we did not choose the name, therefore we are not wed to it." However, the name was chosen by students, albeit not the current ones. That should hold some meaning, otherwise what is to stop future student bodies from changing the name on a whim? It will be hard to anticipate what nicknames will prove to never offend a single student for perpetuity. I, for one, am a little worried about what this indicates in regards to the perceived weakness of our brand. If we are truly so inconsequential to allow a name to be co-opted by some fringe, radical hate-blog, then what does that say about the kind of weight we pull? How truly strong is our tradition? For all the talk about the varying interpretations of what a Crusader meant in the Middle Ages, there really hasn't been reference to the fact that for the last century, the term has meant a student or alumnus from the College of the Holy Cross. Did Notre Dame think of changing its nickname at the height of the Troubles? Will Ole Miss or UNLV change their names from the Rebels, since this is a direct reference to a racist institution and not one that was co-opted after they adopted it? It'd be great if we had the tradition of an alternative nickname, like Harvard has the Johnnies, but sadly it seems our tradition cannot even support one. Does the term Crusader scare away applicants? Maybe. I suspect the name "Holy Cross" does more. That's a different discussion. For awhile, I thought that was a silly one, as there was no way the school would change its name. Now, I am no so sure.
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Post by ncaam on Apr 11, 2017 12:56:03 GMT -5
The kkk taking the Crusader had no impact on what I think about the Holy Cross Crusaders.
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Post by sarasota on Apr 11, 2017 13:13:22 GMT -5
"The Jesuit College of Worcester"
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 11, 2017 13:21:56 GMT -5
Once we let outsiders decide what our symbols mean we may be in real trouble. The idea that "if one is offended, a symbol is de facto offensive" has a little problem. What if the one offended is simply an outsider who is also a nut?
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Post by hcpride on Apr 11, 2017 14:15:09 GMT -5
Once we let outsiders decide what our symbols mean we may be in real trouble. The idea that "if one is offended, a symbol is de facto offensive" has a little problem. What if the one offended is simply an outsider who is also a nut? I am offended by the use of the word 'nut'. Therefore, that word is offensive and its very utterance constitutes a microaggression. In the dingbat community, nut is considered hate speech.
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