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Post by hc87 on Mar 18, 2017 18:54:38 GMT -5
pp....evah hear the phrase "you doth protest too much?"
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Post by hcgrad94 on Mar 18, 2017 18:54:55 GMT -5
Talk to a parent who has a kid at both BC and HC about which is the better school. Sorry.....but lame Yep. But true. HC is a better school. Not as flashy. Not as sexy. Not as big. Not ACC. Just better.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 18, 2017 18:56:04 GMT -5
To illustrate a difference between BC and HC, there are 1,000+ finance majors at BC.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 18, 2017 18:57:55 GMT -5
pp....evah hear the phrase "you doth protest too much?" I prefer empirically-based arguments, not emotionally charged musings.
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Post by hc87 on Mar 18, 2017 18:58:46 GMT -5
It's all about perception to a great degree....no matter how good the undergraduate teaching is at HC, it's not perceived as the great school it once was.
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Post by hc87 on Mar 18, 2017 19:01:55 GMT -5
pp....evah hear the phrase "you doth protest too much?" I prefer empirically-based arguments, not emotionally charged musings. Are HC students getting into the elite grad schools they once were? That's empirical....I really don't know but my gut says no....I just don't see HC having the elan it once did in the post-war era through the 1980s.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 18, 2017 19:03:05 GMT -5
IMO, HC's competitiveness and selectivity would be higher if it admitted and enrolled more females, but HC seems to have chosen a path of admitting slightly less qualitied males to achieve gender parity, or very close to it.
Its not for nothing that ADNP unenrolls all those females studying abroad to bring the M/F ratio to one slightly favoring males, and does so for Title IX.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 18, 2017 19:10:49 GMT -5
I prefer empirically-based arguments, not emotionally charged musings. Are HC students getting into the elite grad schools they once were? That's empirical....I really don't know but my gut says no....I just don't see HC having the elan it once did in the post-war era through the 1980s. I was told by a class agent that one class in the 1960s sent five or six graduates to Harvard Med, from just one class. Now I think its more likely to be one per decade. RIP Fr. 'Bunny' Busam. So you are probably correct in that perception. But I doubt there was any class in the 1980s that could make such a claim either. Where HC comes up short is the low percentage of Asians. Asians should be 15-20 percent of the class, if you truly want a competitive class. .
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Post by hc87 on Mar 18, 2017 19:16:55 GMT -5
My father was a recipient of Fr Busam's guidance in getting into med school......as I said, I don't know.....I did live on the same hall as Jim Collins one year....not sure many Jim Collins' are enrolling at HC today.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 18, 2017 19:29:43 GMT -5
I prefer empirically-based arguments, not emotionally charged musings. Are HC students getting into the elite grad schools they once were? That's empirical ....I really don't know but my gut says no....I just don't see HC having the elan it once did in the post-war era through the 1980s.You see what you want to see and I think you always will. I think you are sometimes right and sometimes wrong, but you always see what you want to see. Just one man's opinion.
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Post by timholycross on Mar 18, 2017 19:31:40 GMT -5
I have bled purple since birth pp.....my college choice had nothing to do with conference affiliation, which was in its nascent origins when I applied to HC....all I'm saying (and have been saying here for ovah a decade on this or the old board) is that there is a direct correalation between the drop in HC's academic reputation/national brand and our membership in the PL. Not only was the league in its infancy, it was sold as a football league only....Brooks et. al. sprung "all sports" on us 2 or 3 years later...more or less after Davidson came and left and Fordham joined. Just football in that league might not have been as big of a disaster.
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Post by hc87 on Mar 18, 2017 19:42:22 GMT -5
Are HC students getting into the elite grad schools they once were? That's empirical ....I really don't know but my gut says no....I just don't see HC having the elan it once did in the post-war era through the 1980s.You see what you want to see and I think you always will. I think you are sometimes right and sometimes wrong, but you always see what you want to see. Just one man's opinion. The only "evidence" I have is, is having worked in high school academia for about 25 years....I just don't see HC as being held as in high regard from students, guidance counselors etc as it was when I first started teaching...take that for what it's worth.
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Post by cfrivals on Mar 18, 2017 19:51:26 GMT -5
Again I will preface this with not an alum so all the rankings of students and grad school dropoffs mean nothing to this basketball fan. We were once thought of as the elite in Northeast basketball. We had a player on the cover of Sports Illustrated as one of the 10 best players in the freaking country standing next to Bird and Magic!!! How can you not be distraught if you lived thru that 38 years ago and then turned down an invite to be the best in the College BB conference because your foolish leader "wasn't in the entertainment business" what a joke!! So when tons of followers of this program disgusted with that comment and the deemphesis of sports on hill left, the sports programs especially BB have continued down the road to obscurity. I have hung in there reluctantly at times, but I will admit, I am getting tired of the excuses and the apathy. Just for instance, I watch game after game in the tourney and I see shooter after shooter who have a natural sweet stroke and then I watch us and we had one player who showed that kind of stroke! Why?? I am glad I am not an alum as I would have walked away many years ago.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 18, 2017 20:18:14 GMT -5
From the Common Data Sets Percentage of enrolled students in the top tenth of their high school class. Holy Cross 61 percent (class of 2020) Providence 9 percent (class of 2019) Boston College (does not prepare a CDS, and no BC-published data on high school rank) Villanova 62 percent (class of 2020) Georgetown 89 percent (class of 2019) St. John's 17 percent (class of 2015) Seton Hall 21 percent (class of 2008?) Does this confirm Villanova is now enrolling stronger students than Holy Cross? Makes sense since their average ACT is 30 and HC's is a 'test score optional' 29. (There is substantial daylight between a 'test score optional' 29 and a regular 30). (Off the topic but Providence statistic jumped out as peculiar, their website states this: "Approximately 39% graduated from high school in the top 10% of their class and 62% fell within the top 20%." Of course their website notes class of 2020, but I'd go with that number. ).
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 18, 2017 20:52:50 GMT -5
Clearly the academic rivalry with BC is long gone. The stats confirm the current and fairly wide disparity in admission criteria. I'm afraid the academic credentials of incoming VU freshmen are far stronger than HC now. I am not sure the increased number of football scholarships and the huge new athletic facility being build will help us win back those strong academic kids. Heck, admissions may not even see that as a mission. Talk to a parent who has a kid at both BC and HC about which is the better school. The use of sunscreen has increased in the last 30 years The rate of skin cancer has almost doubled in the last 30 years. Clearly, then, sunscreen causes skin cancer. Correlation is not causation. Non-Catholic private colleges', especially the Ivy's, greatly diminished prejudice against Catholic students Catholic parents being far less concerned about their kids getting a Catholic college education Holy Cross' obviously Catholic (or at least Christian) affiliation IMO, all play a far greater role in the phenomena you are describing than who we play in basketball or football. And as to HC vs. BC ... I'll back up hcgrad94's assertion with an anecdote. A friend and classmate's oldest daughter went to HC. His second daughter to BC. A couple of years ago, without asking or prompt from me, he volunteered that he was far more satisfied with the education his daughter received at HC. Had to do with the quality of the classes, individualized attention, availability of classes to graduate in 4 years, research opportunities and faculty support ... his 3rd & 4th daughters are at HC now. And for full disclosure his son is at Haverford.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 19, 2017 7:16:18 GMT -5
I guess I am one of those weirdos who does not long for high major glory in basketball. I probably have not watched a full power conference game in at least 2-3 years. I could name more players on Vermont's team than players in any entire power conference. But that's just me, and there is no right or wrong here. Like cfrivals, I don't spend a lot of time worrying about acceptance rates or rankings. I just want to root for a strong, consistent program. I would gladly take the success of either Bucknell or Vermont; 2 programs that remained consistent through a transition of coaches. I'm not right....nor am I wrong. If the level of competition was the number 1 priority for me, I would watch nothing but the NBA.
I realize we cannot become Gonzaga - but I would love to see HC become a program that rises above the level of competition.......and raises the level of the programs around them - like the Zags have done to a certain extent.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 19, 2017 7:46:38 GMT -5
Talk to a parent who has a kid at both BC and HC about which is the better school. Sorry.....but lame Perhaps, but also accurate. You can also get a similar reaction from high school counselors.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 19, 2017 8:36:49 GMT -5
If I was in charge, and was absolutely mandated to make a change in conference affiliation, for the most realistic "reach" conference, in this, the year 2017, I would choose the CAA.
For now, I would absolutely want to see these changes in the PL:
1) do away with the odd Monday and Sunday games (yes, I know, its for TV). Whether its Wednesday-Saturday or Friday-Sunday, 2 days where everyone plays. 2) Cut the league schedule from 18 to 16 games. Could be easily done if you divided the league into 3 geographical zones (not real divisions), where you play everyone in your zone twice, and rotate in the other 2 zones where you play 1 team from both zones once in a season. There, 16 games, 8 home and away. Not brain surgery. 3) Get rid of the CBS deal; get the ESPN 4:30 slot on Friday back. Get on ESPN3 (I'm sure you smart guys can then get in onto your TVs). I HATE the current setup.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 19, 2017 8:39:37 GMT -5
If I was in charge, and was absolutely mandated to make a change in conference affiliation, for the most realistic "reach" conference, in this, the year 2017, I would choose the CAA. For now, I would absolutely want to see these changes in the PL: 1) do away with the odd Monday and Sunday games (yes, I know, its for TV). Whether its Wednesday-Saturday or Friday-Sunday, 2 days where everyone plays. 2) Cut the league schedule from 18 to 16 games. Could be easily done if you divided the league into 3 geographical zones (not real divisions), where you play everyone in your zone twice, and rotate in the other 2 zones where you play 1 team from both zones once in a season. There, 16 games, 8 home and away. Not brain surgery. 3) Get rid of the CBS deal; get the ESPN 4:30 slot on Friday back. Get on ESPN3 (I'm sure you smart guys can then get in onto your TVs). I HATE the current setup. Creative thinking, Dave. (The current set-up was OK until I could suddenly no longer get the video of Patriot League games on my MacBook.)
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 19, 2017 8:43:22 GMT -5
The other thing I would miss (and again I know it means nothing/next to nothing for some) is the personal connection with the players, those that truly appreciate the support they receive, as opposed to possibly having a bunch of "how dare you come up to me" types.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 19, 2017 8:57:43 GMT -5
The other thing I would miss (and again I know it means nothing/next to nothing for some) is the personal connection with the players, those that truly appreciate the support they receive, as opposed to possibly having a bunch of "how dare you come up to me" types. That would be a loss, but I would hope that HC (and HCBC) would not go after those sports prima donnas.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 19, 2017 9:05:49 GMT -5
hcpride, I googled a bit further. and did indeed find a copy of Providences 2016-17 CDS, and the upper tenth is reported as 39 percent. PC is now also SAT optional.
Looking at the percentage of class of 2020 students who scored between 700-800 in the SAT V &M, (my assumption being that nearly all applicants scoring in this range will submit those scores)
Verbal / Math Colgate 37.6% / 49.2% Villanova 25.65% / 35.1% Holy Cross 19.3% / 24.1% Providence 5.1% / 6.4% BC only breaks out the 25-75 scores. BC's applications dropped by over 500 for the class of 2020.
27-75 percentiles class of 2020 (V/M total) Colgate 1290-1460 BC 1260-1460 Villanova 1220-1420 HC 1220-1370 Lafayette 1200-1390 Providence 1030-1240
It is a measure of Ann's failure that Lafayette had 1500+ more applications for a smaller enrolling class than HC did.
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Post by cfrivals on Mar 19, 2017 9:59:49 GMT -5
Ok, so it's safe to assume that our conference affiliation and administration has push HC into the trouble spots that we are in now. I understand that a BE move is out of the question, but I don't understand why we had accepted our current state. We talk about not wanting to be Fordham in the A10 but we are a bottom tier PL team and that is acceptable?? Crazy talk!!!
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Post by timholycross on Mar 19, 2017 10:24:51 GMT -5
If I was in charge, and was absolutely mandated to make a change in conference affiliation, for the most realistic "reach" conference, in this, the year 2017, I would choose the CAA. For now, I would absolutely want to see these changes in the PL: 1) do away with the odd Monday and Sunday games (yes, I know, its for TV). Whether its Wednesday-Saturday or Friday-Sunday, 2 days where everyone plays. 2) Cut the league schedule from 18 to 16 games. Could be easily done if you divided the league into 3 geographical zones (not real divisions), where you play everyone in your zone twice, and rotate in the other 2 zones where you play 1 team from both zones once in a season. There, 16 games, 8 home and away. Not brain surgery. 3) Get rid of the CBS deal; get the ESPN 4:30 slot on Friday back. Get on ESPN3 (I'm sure you smart guys can then get in onto your TVs). I HATE the current setup. Creative thinking, Dave. (The current set-up was OK until I could suddenly no longer get the video of Patriot League games on my MacBook.) Except how do you divide 10 by 3 evenly??? Your math's a little off.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 19, 2017 10:35:09 GMT -5
hcpride, I googled a bit further. and did indeed find a copy of Providences 2016-17 CDS, and the upper tenth is reported as 39 percent. PC is now also SAT optional. Looking at the percentage of class of 2020 students who scored between 700-800 in the SAT V &M, (my assumption being that nearly all applicants scoring in this range will submit those scores) Verbal / MathColgate 37.6% / 49.2% Villanova 25.65% / 35.1% Holy Cross 19.3% / 24.1% Providence 5.1% / 6.4% BC only breaks out the 25-75 scores. BC's applications dropped by over 500 for the class of 2020. 27-75 percentiles class of 2020 (V/M total)Colgate 1290-1460 BC 1260-1460 Villanova 1220-1420 HC 1220-1370 Lafayette 1200-1390 Providence 1030-1240 It is a measure of Ann's failure that Lafayette had 1500+ more applications for a smaller enrolling class than HC did. PP: Beyond the fact this will finally convince the VU deniers, I am afraid HC stats are worse than appears. I strongly (as in 99.999%) suspect that 19.3% of HC students who submitted SAT scores received a 700-800 on Verbal (for example). That yields a wildly inflated number (19.3%). Why? Among the admitted students it has been scientifically demonstrated that those with the higher scores at a 'test optional' school are the ones who tend to submit their scores. So, of the strongest SAT takers admitted to HC, 19.1% scored 700-800. I believe CDS says 38% submit SAT (and/or 23% submit ACT). The Lafayette application comparison may be worse than you depict because 'test score optional' has been scientifically shown to substantially (some say artificially) increase applications. Holy Cross' ballooned 41% in 2006 immediately after making the switch. (See article here ) As you know, Lafayette is not 'test score optional' and we are. Neither of these dramatic effects are unknown to a school opting for 'test optional'. Both effects, once explained to the lay person, are eye-openers. And it changes some opinions regarding data and relative reputations.
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