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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 17, 2017 11:16:43 GMT -5
2013-14 / 2014-15 / 2015-16
Dollars in thousands
Baseball $366 / $397/$447
Basketball M $1919 / $2586 / $2403
Basketball W $1483 / $1589 / $1616
All track combined M $$257 / 412 / $441
All track combined W $958 / $946 / $922
Field Hockey $642 / $651 / $806
Football $4359 / $4776 / $5186
Golf M $52 / $81 / $80
Golf W $42 / $59 / $52
Ice hockey M $1213 / $1285 / $1583
Ice hockey W $522 / $517 / $478
Lacrosse M $370 / $497 / $633
Lacrosse W $436 / $472 / $551
Rowing M $319 / $276 / $274
Rowing W $437 / $445 / $421
Soccer M $829 / $832 / $929
Soccer W $732 / $812 / $868
Softball $563 / $568 / $580
Swimming M $77 / $84 / $102
Swimming W $80 / $104 / $150
Tennis M $19 / $19 / $43
Tennis W $15 / $26 / $50
Volleyball $451 / $4488 / $565
Last two items include 2012-13
Not allocated expenses $8163 / $6397 / $7779 / $7740
Grand total $24028 / $22535 / $25700 / $26922
Conclusion re: non-allocated expenses is that, as of 2015-16, ADNP had not reallocated some of this money to direct spending on sports. Non allocated expenses are believed to include architect and engineering services, and minor improvements in athletic facilities.
_______________________________________________________
______________________________________________________
HC Fin Aid 2014-15 / 2015-16
M $5402 / $6059 +$650K
W $3738 / $3809 +70K (net of no additional scollies)
Comparing other PL football schools
Bucknell increased fin aid $1 million for men, $900K for women
Colgate increased $200K men, and $200K for womebn
Lafayette increased $130K for men, and $200K for women
Lehigh decreased $200K for men, and increased $900K for women
PL Fin Aid for women ranked 2015-16
BostonU $9.8M
Bucknell $6.0M
Lehigh $5.3M
Colgate $5.1M
HC $3.8M
Lafayette $3.2M
Loyola $3.1M
American $3.0M
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Football expenses 2015-16 for NBE, A10, PL (in millions)
Richmond $6.8
Villanova $6.7
Fordham $6.0
Colgate $5.6
Lafayette $5.6
HC $5.2
Lehigh $5.0
Bucknell $4.6
Duquesne $3.0
Georgetown $1.8
Davidson $1.5
Dayton $1.1
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Post by sarasota on Mar 17, 2017 13:11:09 GMT -5
Why has mens rowing declined 3 yrs in a row? What was total home attendance for football versus mens basketball?
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Post by lou on Mar 17, 2017 13:32:32 GMT -5
Why has mens rowing declined 3 yrs in a row? What was total home attendance for football versus mens basketball? Guesstimate, 5000/game football, 1700/per game basketball |
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Post by WCHC Sports on Mar 17, 2017 14:23:39 GMT -5
Bye, football.
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Post by hchoops on Mar 17, 2017 14:25:29 GMT -5
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Mar 17, 2017 14:33:34 GMT -5
This info has been posted a dozen times here by the same poster. What's the point?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 17, 2017 14:43:51 GMT -5
2015-2016 PL spending rankings by sport, $ in thousands
M All track combined
BostU $1153K
Bucknell $655K
Lehigh $461
HC $441
American $421
Lafayette $238
Colgate $187
Loyola $88 x-country only
W All track combined
Boston U $1442
Bucknell $1433
Lehigh $1090
HC $922
Lafayette $378
American $301
Colgate $167
Loyola $48 x country only, $103 ($206?) indoor/outdoor
Baseball
Lafayette $683
Lehigh $454
Bucknell $447
HC $447 (tie)
M Basketball
HC $2403
Bucknell $2172
Bost U $2093
Loyola $2048
American $1935
Colgate $1821
Lafayette $1816
Lehigh $1483
W Basketball
Lafayette $1861
Bost U $1858
Bucknell $1642
HC $1616
American $1561
Colgate $1546
Lehigh $1497
Loyola $1486
Field Hockey
Boston U $1169
American $1080
Bucknell $878
Lafayette $867
Lehigh $809
HC $806
Colgate $586
M Lacrosse
Loyola $1535
Boston U $1372
Lehigh $1360
Colgate $968
Lafayette $730
Bucknell $701
HC $633
W Lacrosse
Loyola $1293
Boston U $1154
Colgate $1050
Lehigh $1024
Lafayette $1007
Bucknell $911
HC $551
American $456
_________________________
The decrease in M's rowing is likely the result of differences in the number of participants (boats entered), and the number of regattas.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Mar 17, 2017 14:46:52 GMT -5
Good lord.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 17, 2017 15:40:13 GMT -5
This info has been posted a dozen times here by the same poster. What's the point? I think perhaps it is to show how HC spends less than everyone else on sports...that we get what we pay for. |
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 17, 2017 15:54:00 GMT -5
This info has been posted a dozen times here by the same poster. What's the point? I think perhaps it is to show how HC spends less than everyone else on sports...that we get what we pay for. IMO, one gets the W-L results that one is willing to pay for; the main factors differentiating schools in the PL are the amount of scollie aid for a sport and the coaches' salaries for that sport. M Soccer
Loyola $1058 Boston U $1058 (tie) American $935 HC $929 Lehigh $892 Colgate $834 Lafayette $805 Bucknell $632 W Soccer
Boston U $1386 Colgate $1269 Loyola $1207 Bucknell $1015 HC $869 Lehigh $819 Lafayette $789 American $673
Softball
BostonU $1073 Lehigh $976 Bucknell $875 Colgate $812 HC $580 Lafayette $540 Volleyball
American $1112 Lehigh $757 Bucknell $728 Colgate $677 Loyola $646 HC $565 Lafayette $492 M/W Swimming
Boston U $1850 Bucknell $1691 Lehigh $986 Colgate $747 Loyola $686 Lafayette $369 HC $252 AU $237
M/W Golf
HC is 4th of four in women's golf, and sixth of six in men's golf. M/W Tennis
HC is 7th of seven in men's tennis, and 7th of seven in women's tennis M/W Rowing
HC is 2nd of four in men's rowing, and 3rd of six in women's rowing. M ice hockey (all play in different conferences)BostU $2904 Colgate $1954 HC $1584 W ice hockey
BostU $1920 Colgate $1587 HC $478 _____________________ Wrestling
(I believe this is the only other sport played by three or more PL members, but not by HC)Lehigh 1424 American 938 Bucknell 918 |
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Mar 17, 2017 16:18:43 GMT -5
This info has been posted a dozen times here by the same poster. What's the point? I think perhaps it is to show how HC spends less than everyone else on sports...that we get what we pay for. And we gathered this the first time it was posted. |
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Post by hcnation on Mar 17, 2017 16:28:42 GMT -5
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Post by hchoops on Mar 17, 2017 17:09:20 GMT -5
Better on St. Patrick's Day--hurling
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Post by realism on Mar 17, 2017 17:18:10 GMT -5
This is part of the evidence that HC is in the wrong conference. And perhaps, with the exception of a last ditch stab in Div. 1 for football and basketball H.C. belongs in Division 3 for most of its sports. No doubt money expended influences relative results. But, HC is unlikely to get the biggest bang for the buck by just increasing expenditures in the PL. In contrast to HC over the past decade, most of the PL schools strategically expanded the geographic origin of their students. This has contributed to most PL institutions increasingly perceived as national brands by secondary school student-athletes throughout the country. A byproduct of this has been ferrtile pipelines of non-scholly full-pay student athletes who nicely complement scholly athletes on PL rosters in the Olympic sports. With athletic schollies, the PL has evolved into a financially resurseful niche within Div. ! . Even if HC pays up, it will take a lot of time to replicate these valuable pipelines of scholly and full pay student-athletes from selected geograhic pockets of athletic strength from around the country.
The frustration of posters on this board is palpable. That after decades of HC neglect resulting in athletic atrophy. reviving a respectable athletic tradition is harder than expected. The writing is on the wall. For HC, neiither continued membership in the PL nor participation in Division1 for all sports offer an enlightened athletic strategy nor the most cost efficient way to rebrand itself.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 17, 2017 17:20:24 GMT -5
1. CTP: As we have seen, some of us want to keep posting until others agree. (After all, how many times did we get to read the w/l record of FCMB at MSM?
2. Hoops: Hurling used to have a cute wrinkle that I think has been stopped. Some players sharpened the edge of their stick making it so fine, it could (and sometimes did) slice open an opponent's stray limb. (My cousin in Cork had his arm opened from elbow t wrist by such a stick.) Ever been to Gaelic Park, the field near Manhattan? There are some very entertaining games played there - and players still practice at Van Cortland Park in NYC.
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Post by bison137 on Mar 18, 2017 0:40:55 GMT -5
This is part of the evidence that HC is in the wrong conference. And perhaps, with the exception of a last ditch stab in Div. 1 for football and basketball H.C. belongs in Division 3 for most of its sports.. . . The frustration of posters on this board is palpable. That after decades of HC neglect resulting in athletic atrophy. reviving a respectable athletic tradition is harder than expected. The writing is on the wall. For HC, neiither continued membership in the PL nor participation in Division1 for all sports offer an enlightened athletic strategy nor the most cost efficient way to rebrand itself. Not it sure if you're aware that HC cannot drop to D2/D3 in selected sports. Unless basketball is dropped to D3 - and that is not happening - then all sponsored sports must remain D1. |
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 18, 2017 6:27:58 GMT -5
Y'all getting this arithmetic 'cuz I got an empty suit livin' in my town ..
Phreek's conclusions:
> Spending wise, HC ain't competitive yet with the rest of the PL, except hoops, where it leads the pack.
> ADNP needs to re-allocate about $3 million of indirect spending to non-revenue sports, and he ain't done it yet.
> HC might be able to afford ECAC hockey (paying for it out of the $3 million above) but can't afford HE for both M/W.
> TV contract notwithstanding, NBE schools are losing their shirt.
Comparison of spending on revenue / non-revenue sports: 2005-06 / 2015-16
Bucknell total spending 13.6 / 25.4
Bucknell hoops (2.2) / (3.8)
Bucknell football (2.5) / (4.6)
Bucknell non-revenue sports (6.2 / 12.9)
Bucknell indirect spending (2.7) / (4.1)
Colgate total spending 18.0 / 24.5
Colgate hoops (1.9) / (3.4)
Colgate football (3.6) / (5.6)
Colgate ice hockey (2.2) / (3.5)
Colgate non-revenue sports (6.2 / 8.1)
Colgate indirect spending (4.1) / (3.9)
HC total spending 12.2 / 26.9
HC hoops (2.4) / (4.0)
HC football (2.7) / (5.2)
HC ice hockey (1.0) / (2.1)
HC non-revenue sports (3.3) / (7.7)
HC indirect spending (2.8) / (7.7)
Lafayette total spending 18.0 / 24.5
Lafayette hoops (1.5) / (3.7)
Lafayette football (3.1) / (5.6)
Lafayette non-revenue sports (9.3 / 11.3)
Lafayette indirect spending (4.1) / (3.9)
Lehigh total spending 19.0 / 32.0
Lehigh hoops (1.7) / (3.0)
Lehigh football (3.3) / (5.0)
Lehigh non-revenue sports (6.3) / (11.9)
Lehigh indirect spending (7.7) / (12.1)
Georgetown total spending 23.6 / 37.7
GU hoops (6.5) / (14.2)
GU football (1.7) / (1.8)
GU non-revenue sports (7.4) / (12.9)
GU indirect spending (8.0) / (8.8)
Providence total 13.8 / 30.8
Providence hoops (4.9) / (10.5)
Providence ice hockey (2.3) / (5.2)
Providence non-revenue sports (3.4 / 8.7)
Providence indirect (3.2) / (6.4)
Richmond total spending 21.3 / 27.6
Richmond hoops (3.2) / (7.0)
Richmond football (3.7) / (6.8)
Richmond non-revenue sports (5.0 / 8.1)
Richmond indirect spending (9.4) / (5.7)
Villanova total spending 21.5 / 39.5
Villanova hoops (5.3) / (12.0)
Villanova football (3.8) / (6.6)
Villanova non-revenue sports (6.3) / (12.6)
Villanova indirect spending (6.1) / (8.3)
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Spending on women's sports other than W basketball in thousands
Bucknell $8345
Villanova $8089
Richmond $7603
Colgate $6939
Lehigh* $6931
Providence $6800
Georgetown $6652
HC* $5444
Lafayette* $4410
* Schools enrolling more men than women
One can see HC's and ADNP's 'problem': HC is $1.5-2.0 million short from being competitive in women's sports.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Mar 18, 2017 7:33:34 GMT -5
We were also told by you that HC "could not afford" to fire MB, so I guess your math isn't always accurate.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 18, 2017 8:23:55 GMT -5
We were also told by you that HC "could not afford" to fire MB, so I guess your math isn't always accurate. To err is human, to forgive Divine.  |
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 18, 2017 8:58:59 GMT -5
We were also told by you that HC "could not afford" to fire MB, so I guess your math isn't always accurate. To err is human, to forgive Divine. On the old board, I said, more than once, that if I was without error, I'd be in Rome. And my recollection of my post regarding the cost to HC of firing FCMB was that it was posted the season before the season he was let go. And, my post(s) on said subject opined that FADDR could not approach TPTB with the cost of now firing two hoops coaches in a row, in the early years of their multi-year contracts |
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Post by sarasota on Mar 18, 2017 11:13:37 GMT -5
Not it sure if you're aware that HC cannot drop to D2/D3 in selected sports. Unless basketball is dropped to D3 - and that is not happening - then all sponsored sports must remain D1. Thanks for providing another example of the Monster Monopoly of the NCAA. I have pointed out this atrocious regulation in the past. |
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Post by realism on Mar 18, 2017 15:05:40 GMT -5
This is part of the evidence that HC is in the wrong conference. And perhaps, with the exception of a last ditch stab in Div. 1 for football and basketball H.C. belongs in Division 3 for most of its sports.. . . The frustration of posters on this board is palpable. That after decades of HC neglect resulting in athletic atrophy. reviving a respectable athletic tradition is harder than expected. The writing is on the wall. For HC, neiither continued membership in the PL nor participation in Division1 for all sports offer an enlightened athletic strategy nor the most cost efficient way to rebrand itself. Not it sure if you're aware that HC cannot drop to D2/D3 in selected sports. Unless basketball is dropped to D3 - and that is not happening - then all sponsored sports must remain D1. I am aware of the DI/D2 or D3 combo limitations. But, I'm also aware of how boxed in HC is on all options. Take the bluster of "upgrading to A-10,HE, NBE, etc." This is simply absurd! All of the schools in those conferences not only have higher expenditures on schollies. But, they also have the national pipelines for full pay student athletes from around the country to complement the scholly athletes. Time to face the music. TPTB woke up too late on both geographic reach and supporting athletics after the collegiate world changed dramatically over the past decade. Time to suck it up and gracefully become the "Catholic Conn. College," and just accept it. |
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 18, 2017 17:13:30 GMT -5
Not it sure if you're aware that HC cannot drop to D2/D3 in selected sports. Unless basketball is dropped to D3 - and that is not happening - then all sponsored sports must remain D1. I am aware of the DI/D2 or D3 combo limitations. But, I'm also aware of how boxed in HC is on all options. Take the bluster of "upgrading to A-10,HE, NBE, etc." This is simply absurd! All of the schools in those conferences not only have higher expenditures on schollies. But, they also have the national pipelines for full pay student athletes from around the country to complement the scholly athletes. .... With respect to A-10, and NBE, these schools offer less schollie aid... Below four private schools from each of these two conferences, amount of scollie aid for men / women, plus Colgate as a PL benchmark. Even a public institution that was a member of the A-10 and playing scollie football (UMass and FBS) offers less scollie aid than Colgate. Marquette $2.9 / $3.5 Xavier $2.2 / $2.8 Butler $2.3 / $2.5 Creighton $1.9 / $2.4 St. Joe's $3.3 / $4.0 Saint Louis $2.6 / $3.2 Dayton $2.5 / $3.0 Davidson $1.9 / $1.7 Colgate $6.4 / $5.1 None of the eight play scollie football, and none play ice hockey. IMO, scollie footrball generates more scollie aid for women. And I disagree that most of the NBE and the A-10 have national pipelines for full pays. Most of the private schools are regional institutions, and the public institutions are also regional in character. . |
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Post by realism on Mar 18, 2017 20:54:39 GMT -5
My error PP. I misspoke without the full facts at hand.
I really don't know about the NBE schools at all. I guess you have to pull out hockey, football and other PL school anomalies ( Lehigh-wrestling, Loyola M & W Lax, the Service Academies' full schoolies across the board, etc ) to understand how different Pl institutions compare. And your financial facts help compare the PL to the other options that some suggest are available to HC today.
I am familiar with the private schools Davidson, George Washington, Fordham and Richmond in the A-10. Who knows--HC may indeed be better off in the A-10 or NBE, and throw in HE while you're at it..But the financial facts help put this all in perspective.
Any way you cut it, HC is a fish out of water in the Pl. And, it's going to take a lot longer than most posters think to regain a decent athletic brand. Pooh-poohing the Pl is like pissing in the wind. With careful strategic planning, HC may get better re-branding in other conferences and other divisions. Creating a national ( and 10 % international, if deemed appropriate ) student body should parallel efforts to restore athletic respectability to truly improve the HC brand in a sustainable way.
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alcovefan
Climbing Mt. St. James
Enter your message here...
Posts: 54 
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Post by alcovefan on Mar 21, 2017 10:58:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the thread, always interesting to look at the numbers.
Football is, as it will continue to be, the elephant in the room. It is painful given the history and what is a great classic New England college stadium, but the realities of modern college athletics demand sacrifice.
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