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Post by clmetsfan on Sept 27, 2017 15:47:21 GMT -5
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Post by Tom on Sept 28, 2017 8:04:04 GMT -5
I don't think the decline in boxing's popularity as a spectator sport has anything to do with the health risks. I think it's a combination of too many sanctioning bodies leading to multiple "champions" at every weight class and the belief that it's rigged at the upper levels
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Post by clmetsfan on Sept 28, 2017 9:15:08 GMT -5
I don't think the decline in boxing's popularity as a spectator sport has anything to do with the health risks. I think it's a combination of too many sanctioning bodies leading to multiple "champions" at every weight class and the belief that it's rigged at the upper levels Eh, I agree that the new awareness of CTE and concussions hasn't had much of an effect because boxing has been a niche sport for much longer than that, but I think a big part of boxing's decline was based on more and more people thinking that it's simply barbaric to watch two people pummel each other for sport. I suppose "health risks" are part of that, but now we're just talking semantics.
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jstew
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Post by jstew on Sept 29, 2017 8:44:48 GMT -5
What does this CTE research prove without a control group? There are many many factors that contribute to people developing cognitive issues. Unless they are comparing CTE football brains with brains of folks with depression, ALS, Alzheimer's, dementia, etc. who did NOT play football how can you really draw any conclusions?
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Post by lou on Sept 29, 2017 9:03:49 GMT -5
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Post by clmetsfan on Sept 29, 2017 9:08:06 GMT -5
What does this CTE research prove without a control group? There are many many factors that contribute to people developing cognitive issues. Unless they are comparing CTE football brains with brains of folks with depression, ALS, Alzheimer's, dementia, etc. who did NOT play football how can you really draw any conclusions? What makes you think that this research is being done without control groups?
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jstew
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Post by jstew on Sept 29, 2017 9:09:06 GMT -5
Are there any people who didn't play football that experience problems with judgment, reasoning, problem solving, impulse control, and aggression?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 29, 2017 9:10:55 GMT -5
Shall I send you the list of members of the US Congress?
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Post by hchoops on Sept 29, 2017 9:14:26 GMT -5
or even the executive branch ? (that pitch was an easy one,Ky)
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jstew
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Post by jstew on Sept 29, 2017 9:18:50 GMT -5
Haha. Thank you for helping to make my point...
There are many people who experience these issues who did not play football. The symptoms are broad in many cases and can be attributed to other contributing factors. There are cases of some players having had CTE, but displaying no symptoms. I'm not a scientist or statistician but it appears to me that the conclusions people are making about causation and the relationship with football are not following scientific method. I imagine that abuse of drugs and alcohol can cause these types of symptoms without playing football. Perhaps there is a genetic component as well. I just think we should be asking a lot more questions of these researchers before drawing conclusions and demonizing football.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 29, 2017 9:38:06 GMT -5
The marker that's been identified is unique to CTE. Individuals with other neurological ailments, some of the symptoms of which may be similar to CTE, would not have this marker. And CTE is not a condition found only in football players. The reason that the Veterans Administration is funding the Boston University research is veterans who are or may be suffering from it. See this Kristof article from five years ago. www.nytimes.com/2012/04/26/opinion/kristof-veterans-and-brain-disease.htmlAnd this is why there is great concern in the VA. There are probably a lot more members of the military who may have CTE than there are football or ice hockey players with the disease.. pilotonline.com/news/military/veterans/a-navy-seal-s-last-act-of-service-a-search/article_8ee3d886-638d-59b8-b7ff-e1e9956e79a5.html___________________________________ I am not aware of individuals who have had a post-mortem CTE diagnosis yet who displayed no symptoms. There is a known and understood research bias in the Boston U. studies because the brains are donated by either individuals or their families because they suspect there is something wrong. There was at least one NFL player who deliberately committed suicide in a way so the whole brain would be unaffected. When makes a biomarker such as this unique is that they have not found the marker in the brains of people who did not have CTE. That's the control.
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Post by clmetsfan on Sept 29, 2017 10:12:27 GMT -5
Haha. Thank you for helping to make my point... There are many people who experience these issues who did not play football. The symptoms are broad in many cases and can be attributed to other contributing factors. There are cases of some players having had CTE, but displaying no symptoms. I'm not a scientist or statistician but it appears to me that the conclusions people are making about causation and the relationship with football are not following scientific method. I imagine that abuse of drugs and alcohol can cause these types of symptoms without playing football. Perhaps there is a genetic component as well. I just think we should be asking a lot more questions of these researchers before drawing conclusions and demonizing football. Again, what are you basing this on? Do you really think the researchers at BU and elsewhere are not following basic scientific protocol?
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jstew
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Post by jstew on Sept 29, 2017 10:15:19 GMT -5
I assume you're referring to the CCL11 biomarker that researchers are associating with CTE (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0185541).
A quick google search tells me that CCL11 is a protein found naturally in the brain and at higher levels in aging people and schizophrenics. A study done with mice showed that exposure to CCL11 led to decreases in neurogenesis and cognitive performance (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170097/).
While I agree that this could be a great discovery in helping to diagnose CTE, it does not tell us a whole lot about what causes higher levels of CCL11.
I appreciate the input and look forward to feedback/comments from others.
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jstew
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Post by jstew on Sept 29, 2017 10:18:09 GMT -5
clmetsfan, you make a good point. But if you can point me to some literature where this is spelled out I would love to see it.
For all I know they are absolutely doing that control group comparison but I have not seen it and it certainly is not included in the articles that journalists breathlessly churn out to discourage people from letting their children play football.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 29, 2017 13:55:10 GMT -5
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Post by clmetsfan on Sept 29, 2017 13:58:01 GMT -5
clmetsfan, you make a good point. But if you can point me to some literature where this is spelled out I would love to see it. For all I know they are absolutely doing that control group comparison but I have not seen it and it certainly is not included in the articles that journalists breathlessly churn out to discourage people from letting their children play football. The best source is always the reports themselves, which are always peer-reviewed before they're published. Don't stop with just the media "analysis" of them, which will always emphasize the most sensationalist aspects. The infamous report from a couple months ago in which 111 out of 112 brains studied is a perfect example. The report that was published in the Journal of the AMA clearly states that that particular study was limited in scope to just brains that had been donated by families who suspected CTE, which is a clear confirmation bias. That aspect got downplayed in all the media coverage of the report, but it was definitely there. As for other studies, here's one from the Journal of Alzheimer's disease last year that studied 78 former NFL players' brains (aged 40-69) and included a control group of 16 same-age brains from people who played non-contact sports: content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-alzheimers-disease/jad151028?resultNumber=7&totalResults=48&start=0&q=exosome&resultsPageSize=10&rows=10
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jstew
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Post by jstew on Sept 29, 2017 14:36:07 GMT -5
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 28, 2017 16:49:44 GMT -5
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 28, 2017 17:22:02 GMT -5
Is this the beginning of the end of organized football ? $95mm Luth ? Possibly. It is good that the Luth is for many sports and not just football.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 9, 2017 15:14:29 GMT -5
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jstew
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Post by jstew on Nov 20, 2017 11:44:28 GMT -5
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