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Post by hcpride on Sept 26, 2017 11:11:04 GMT -5
Well....what they're doing now isn't really working. Crowds were higher when Dan Allen was the coach. Why not try something new and different. Bravehearts sell plenty of beer at their games...great family atmosphere and no problems. My opinion on the biggest problem why crowds leave....games are too long. UNH game was around 3 hours and 40 minutes. I love football but not that much. The world has changed significantly since Dan Allen was coach. Ivy games were drawing 15-18000 in those days now draw 5000. We will likely have 10-11000 Saturday, which I would guess will be one of the largest FCS crowds of the weekend in the Northeast. Not bad for a school of 2800. Certainly agree crowds FCS crowds are smaller now. (Not to nitpick but but on Saturday Yale-Cornell drew 11K at Yale and Harvard-Brown drew over 10K. HYP at home v Ivy League are probably double (or more) the 5K estimate.)
I'd be very pleasantly surprised with 10-11K at Homecoming Weekend against Lafayette. At this point. UNH game - more of a regional rivalry and much higher quality than Lafayette IMHO - was 8K.
IMHO UMass would be a better move for us crowd wise/football wise than a return to playing BC 2018, 2020. Apologize if that is heresy for some of those who remember BC and HC as long ago academic and football rivals. But that is another story.
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Post by hc89 on Sept 26, 2017 12:14:39 GMT -5
Beer can, and should, be sold at our games. Check out what Villanova is doing this year www.villanova.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/091217aaa.html
I was at Villanova for Family Weekend and we went to the fan fest- great selection of beer, wine, food, etc. available inside the stadium beginning 90 minutes before kickoff. It made for a very festive pre-game experience. And, no, there were not a "bunch of drunks" stumbling around the stadium during the game. It was great and HC should try the same thing.
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Post by joe on Sept 26, 2017 12:55:49 GMT -5
We draw nice crowds for an FCS school. There is an insignificant difference between now and the Dan Allen years. If we simply threw in some seatbacks we can elegantly reduce seating by 30% or more. 8-10k fans in seatbacks spread out evenly in a closed in stadium makes for a nice atmosphere. We can keep some bleachers under the purple tarp and open them up for overflow. Just nail the goddam seat backs right into the existing aluminum bleachers and make them big and comfortable. This move alone would improve the game day atmosphere by about 1,000 percent. I'm so tired of people talking about all the empty seats. The frickin stadium has too many frickin seats. Same conversation for like 30 years. Enough! And close off the open end with something so it doesn't look like high school. I have seriously considered hiring my own architect and brining the plans to the athletic office.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Sept 26, 2017 13:11:10 GMT -5
If we simply threw in some seatbacks we can elegantly reduce seating by 30% or more. 8-10k fans in seatbacks spread out evenly in a closed in stadium makes for a nice atmosphere. I've thought about this, too. It doesn't even have to be that many chair back seats. A number of schools at our level have carved out a section of chair backs at midfield on the home side. I think it would be great about halfway up the bleachers on the home side from the 40 to the 40, to have chair backs here. PP, what would this cost?
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Post by joe on Sept 26, 2017 13:15:38 GMT -5
See, make the whole thing big fat seat backs and spread people around the stadium. Keep a section of bleachers for the band and students and a few more covered bleacher sections up in the nose bleeds that you could uncover and use when needed. What will happen with partial seatbacks is that cheapskates won't want to pay extra and everyone will crowd into the bleachers. Partial seatbacks are a waste of time. There's no that many seats, just do it correctly. Problem of attendance solved. No way you trigger ADA simply by replacing seats. You technically don't even need seats, just folding seat backs screws into the aluminum. They don't need to fold down and they don't need arm rests. This is more akin to maintenance than renovation. See what I'm saying? Just a bunch of little tombstone looking things stapled behind the seats to direct people's asses as to where to plop, keeping a certain distance between people such that the crowd is more evenly distributed. Simple trick of the eye is all I'm saying. Just order 8 thousand of them. The cost would be peanuts.
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Post by alum on Sept 26, 2017 13:20:54 GMT -5
Selling beer inside the stadium doesn't guarantee people will come in any quicker. The UCONN crowd was streaming in well into the second quarter and they sell a large variety of beer at the Rent.
The letter cost nothing to send. No harm can possibly come from it. Why complain at all.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 26, 2017 14:05:15 GMT -5
I'd sell beer at a reasonable price--no need to gouge with $8.00 pro stadium prices. 12 OZ draught of domestic (Budweiser, e.g.) in a great looking, collectible Crusaders cup for $3.25.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 26, 2017 15:56:56 GMT -5
See, make the whole thing big fat seat backs and spread people around the stadium. Keep a section of bleachers for the band and students and a few more covered bleacher sections up in the nose bleeds that you could uncover and use when needed. What will happen with partial seatbacks is that cheapskates won't want to pay extra and everyone will crowd into the bleachers. Partial seatbacks are a waste of time. There's no that many seats, just do it correctly. Problem of attendance solved. No way you trigger ADA simply by replacing seats. You technically don't even need seats, just folding seat backs screws into the aluminum. They don't need to fold down and they don't need arm rests. This is more akin to maintenance than renovation. See what I'm saying? Just a bunch of little tombstone looking things stapled behind the seats to direct people's asses as to where to plop, keeping a certain distance between people such that the crowd is more evenly distributed. Simple trick of the eye is all I'm saying. Just order 8 thousand of them. The cost would be peanuts. If it triggers the ADA regulations for Fitton, the cost could be millions before all is done.
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Post by joe on Sept 26, 2017 16:14:56 GMT -5
Don't see how or why this would trigger anything if executed correctly, although I do not know the letter of the law. Here's an example: www.seatingsolutions.com/products/bleachair/Scroll to the Ohio Dominican photo and note how the seats are widely spaced. Imagine this at Fitton in royal purple.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 27, 2017 6:43:51 GMT -5
Don't see how or why this would trigger anything if executed correctly, although I do not know the letter of the law. Here's an example: www.seatingsolutions.com/products/bleachair/Scroll to the Ohio Dominican photo and note how the seats are widely spaced. Imagine this at Fitton in royal purple. If the seats are attached to the stands, it is a change top the stadium and could trigger ADA regulates that are overdue for compliance.
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Post by joe on Sept 27, 2017 7:31:20 GMT -5
What if we painted new numbers on the seats, is that a change? What about new arm rails for the stairs? I mean where do they draw the line? Frankly, unless any of us have any first hand experience or can quote law, I think we're all talking out of our asses. I can't imagine there not being a workaround for something like this. Everything is give and take and a negotiation. Throw in some ADA elevators and promise to do a full ADA upgrade within 10 years in return for a few simple modifications now.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 27, 2017 7:53:12 GMT -5
"Holy Cross, Wealthy Catholic College, Refuses to Accommodate Disabled Fans in Stadium"--- can you just see the headlines now?
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Post by joe on Sept 27, 2017 7:59:38 GMT -5
"Holy Cross, Wealthy Catholic College, Refuses to Accommodate Disabled Fans in Stadium"--- can you just see the headlines now? We wouldn't just do something without clearing it first. And hell, if they wanted to publish an article like that, they should. Perhaps our stadium should be ADA accessible already. It sort of goes against what the college stands for. "People (and a Stadium) for Others".
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Post by td128 on Sept 27, 2017 8:07:35 GMT -5
I had not previously noticed but there is a ramp into the stands on the Visitor's side of the stadium in the corner by the home locker room.
Does anybody know when that was put in?
I certainly don't think that alone meets the ADA requirements for the stadium as a whole but it does provide access that was not previously there. I think I would recall if I had seen that last year.
Props to ADNP for doing everything within his power to create a nice gameday environment. Always more to do but after having walked through the desert for so many years, it's nice to have a little taste that is beginning to come forth now.
Let's Win!!
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Post by joe on Sept 27, 2017 8:56:20 GMT -5
Fitton Field, as it is today, with all the snazzy details and nice grass field, looks pretty both in person and also on TV, with the exception being the abundance of empty seats in the background, even during games when the attendance is solid. I recall even the UMass and UNH games looking less than impressive from certain angles, and those were big crowds. I can't count how many times I'm watching a game on TV and someone in the room asks why there isn't anyone at the game. This is the difference between looking big vs small time to potential new fans, supporters, and especially potential football recruits giving the school a look. In the smart phone era, optics are so very important, no matter how trivial it may seem. It would be one thing if we actually had no crowds, nothing you can do about that. But the truth is we still have a nice turnout, comparable to about any FCS school in New England, but it does not appear so in person or on live media. Die hard like us know what's going on, but the potential audience in 2017 does not have the attention span or interest to see beyond this. It would take just a touch more imagination and inspiration to fix this. No shortage of possible solutions.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 27, 2017 10:16:51 GMT -5
Pride, let me call you out because this is a real "nitpick." I assume at some point you have been to the Yale Bowl but a crowd of 11,000 there would make a crowd of 5,000 in Fitton look like standing room only. In addition, the Yale student body is considerably larger than Holy Cross'.
While I might agree with your overall point, this example doesn't do it. The Harvard game at Brown comes closer to your point but not much.
The "problem," and I don't see it that much, is that our stadium is too large at 23,000+ seating capacity. Our crowds are not bad at all for D-IAA in New England. In a 15,000 seating capacity, the 7,000-9,000 we get would look good and the occasional night game getting 10,000-12,000 would look packed.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 27, 2017 10:37:26 GMT -5
Agreed....we basically have the problem that some of the Ivies have vis a vis stadia: they were built in a different era when Ivy League football (and HC to an extent) were on a more national stage/consciousness.
Princeton would probably like a mulligan after they rebuilt Palmer Stadium with a close to 40K capacity in the 1990s. They haven't come close to filling it since the first year it was opened. Harvard and Yale are going to fill (or come close to filling) their stadia once every other year when they play each other...other than that, largely vacant most game-days.
I didn't mean to poo-poo Nate's letter too much....I agree, no harm done in doing so...it just smacked of, maybe not desperation, but concern. I think the turn-out (or lack of one....or the optics of one) for the UNH game has him a little spooked.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 27, 2017 10:56:36 GMT -5
Pride, let me call you out because this is a real "nitpick." I assume at some point you have been to the Yale Bowl but a crowd of 11,000 there would make a crowd of 5,000 in Fitton look like standing room only. In addition, the Yale student body is considerably larger than Holy Cross'. While I might agree with your overall point, this example doesn't do it. The Harvard game at Brown comes closer to your point but not much. The "problem," and I don't see it that much, is that our stadium is too large at 23,000+ seating capacity. Our crowds are not bad at all for D-IAA in New England. In a 15,000 seating capacity, the 7,000-9,000 we get would look good and the occasional night game getting 10,000-12,000 would look packed. Sader: ?
This was posted (hcgrad94 ): The world has changed significantly since Dan Allen was coach. Ivy games were drawing 15-18000 in those days now draw 5000. We will likely have 10-11000 Saturday, which I would guess will be one of the largest FCS crowds of the weekend in the Northeast. Not bad for a school of 2800.
I responded directly to that: Certainly agree crowds FCS crowds are smaller now. (Not to nitpick but on Saturday Yale-Cornell drew 11K at Yale and Harvard-Brown drew over 10K. HYP at home v Ivy League are probably double (or more) the 5K estimate.)
My response to the the 5,000 Ivy league attendance figure had nothing at all to do with the optics of half empty or half full at Yale bowl, Fitton, or elsewhere. That is a completely different point - certainly addressed elsewhere in the thread by others - and I agree with you there. It is certainly true Yale and Harvard and many other schools have larger student bodies than HC. That, too, is a completely different point. And there too I agree with you (and, of course hcgrad94 ). And to further agree with you on another point I did not address, I am routinely in a very attractive now-12,300 seat stadium (Stony Brook) and can confirm a crowd of 8K looks great and a packed house is rocking. Finally, in a list of concerns about HC athletics, Fitton Field is not near the top for me.
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Post by joe on Sept 27, 2017 11:11:32 GMT -5
We should try to preserve the scale and feel of Fitton because what player doesn't like to see a large stadium on a recruiting trip, and to also play in one on gameday. In other words, we don't really want to have a smaller stadium, just less seating. All the other stuff like lights, concessions, upgraded press box, video scoreboard are also important, but significantly less so, if our goals are both improve optics and to create a more exciting game day environment. We should also have an interactive Ring of Honor wall closing off the open end near the baseball field, with statues and plaques celebrating the heroes of HC football through the centuries through which fans can walk and learn. Getting the ball rolling with the proposed seatbacks is the most important and highest yield change and it would be so simple, so easily done, literally over a weekend with a bunch of seatbacks, an air compressor, and a power drill.
This is not lipstick on a pig, because Fitton is not a pig. I'm not sure we need to invent in a 20 million dollar renovation. An aluminum stadium will remain for a million years after the human race has become extinct, so just freshen it up a bit and add some long overlooked details. I've always felt that Fitton was a very clean stadium, which always appears solid and presents very well as it is.
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Post by gks on Sept 27, 2017 11:13:58 GMT -5
Parts of Fitton Field are 80+ years old. Probably needs more work than we realize.
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Post by joe on Sept 27, 2017 11:17:04 GMT -5
Thought the older parts were already repaired/replaced a while back, no? Wasn't this something to do with the concrete support? I don't recall exactly. Just looking at how it's built, I think Fitton is probably good for another 100 years, but what do I know.
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Post by crusader12 on Sept 27, 2017 11:32:19 GMT -5
I had not previously noticed but there is a ramp into the stands on the Visitor's side of the stadium in the corner by the home locker room. Does anybody know when that was put in? I certainly don't think that alone meets the ADA requirements for the stadium as a whole but it does provide access that was not previously there. I think I would recall if I had seen that last year. Props to ADNP for doing everything within his power to create a nice gameday environment. Always more to do but after having walked through the desert for so many years, it's nice to have a little taste that is beginning to come forth now. Let's Win!! It has been 4 years at least maybe more.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 27, 2017 11:32:53 GMT -5
Agreed....we basically have the problem that some of the Ivies have vis a vis stadia: they were built in a different era when Ivy League football (and HC to an extent) were on a more national stage/consciousness. Princeton would probably like a mulligan after they rebuilt Palmer Stadium with a close to 40K capacity in the 1990s. They haven't come close to filling it since the first year it was opened. Harvard and Yale are going to fill (or come close to filling) their stadia once every other year when they play each other...other than that, largely vacant most game-days. I didn't mean to poo-poo Nate's letter too much....I agree, no harm done in doing so...it just smacked of, maybe not desperation, but concern. I think the turn-out (or lack of one....or the optics of one) for the UNH game has him a little spooked. I think one of Princeton's goals was to reduce the capacity of their old stadium so they went down from about 46 K to about 27 K. I agree that in retrospect they could have gone down even more.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 27, 2017 11:43:50 GMT -5
You are correct Sir...my bad, the new Princeton Stadium holds 27,773 according to wiki...thought it was bigger for some reason. I could see a rare game approaching that there (a Rutgers game, game for the Ivy title etc) but I doubt they too will ever approach 20K anytime too soon either. I'm just glad I got to see my one and only game at Palmer Stadium in 1988....Tim Donovan is still running
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 27, 2017 16:43:33 GMT -5
What if we painted new numbers on the seats, is that a change? What about new arm rails for the stairs? I mean where do they draw the line? Frankly, unless any of us have any first hand experience or can quote law, I think we're all talking out of our asses. I can't imagine there not being a workaround for something like this. Everything is give and take and a negotiation. Throw in some ADA elevators and promise to do a full ADA upgrade within 10 years in return for a few simple modifications now. Painting is simple maintenance. No ADA implications. New rails can be considered a change to the structure itself. I do have first hand experience. It took one local high school three years to get a new press box approved (simply replacing the old ones) because they did not provide an elevator to accommodate anyone in a wheelchair. The ADA can be tricky to navigate. I would trust TPTB at HC on this one. IMHO, ADNP knows the best way to handle this.
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