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Post by efg72 on Dec 28, 2017 18:45:41 GMT -5
An opinion of one only
But
I am not sure our athletic records alone matter as much to other conferences as our ability to pay the entrance fee and the Board and Administration remain committed to improving the programs and staying in that conference. From many conversations thirty two or so years ago with EBW and JEB, the Big East wanted one large check, which was not going to be an issue, but they also were nervous about JEB staying committed to the conference. We all know the rest of the story.
My bet is we can move tomorrow if we are willing to write a check and the desired conference trusts the HC Board and Administration will remain committed to athletics. For most conferences our academic reputation, graduation rates, and athletic traditions (yes even the old NCAA Championships matter) help make us a desirable partner.
As I said perhaps I am alone in this view but I truly believe a move today is more likely than it was in the 84-85 time period , which was ever so close.
I am interested in the reactions of others as I am not close to the Board, Administration or Coaches as I once was before the late 90s, especially those who post that were involved at the time of BEC first and second opportunity, and the 1989 ? opportunity to create a 16 School Catholic Conference.
Thanks
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Post by trimster on Dec 28, 2017 18:54:10 GMT -5
EFG,
I am not close to anyone "in the know" but I agree with your thinking that our academic reputation, our history and maybe even our location could be more important than our current on-field performance when it comes to any interest from another conference.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 28, 2017 19:03:21 GMT -5
You might be right, Trimster, but I am at least trying to throw out suggestions. It seems like after every game I hear the same stuff by those who want out:
1. Man, this Patriot League is like a major bummer, man, it sucks. 2. Yeah, its holding us back, and Ann too. We gotta get better athletes; can't do it in this crummy league. 3. I know - you know, we coulda been in the Big East back in the 70's, lets do it now. 4. Yeah, cool; let's dive in, I got a couple of hundred guys that will show up for the first game! 5. Awesome; can't wait - I'll have bragging rights real soon around the Keurig machine at work! 6. I know, man, it's going to be wicked cool! I'm going to be a major stallion with the wife too, once she finds out!
Rinse, lather, repeat....over and over and over.
I just want to hear a real exit plan; a real one.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 28, 2017 19:23:27 GMT -5
An exit plan requires we know where we are going, and if we know that, have alignment with a Conference, the rest is simple
I interviewed Arian Foster last year before our Global Conference and talked to him about his role as a football player, philanthropist and the future of Foods. His response as a player and investor was when my WHY and their WHY are aligned it is simple—I play or invest. The same is true for Crusader sports.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 28, 2017 20:04:26 GMT -5
If the following schools can do it in basketball, why can't we: Boston College, Villanova, Providence, Seton Hall, Xavier, St. Joe's, Gonzaga, St. Bonnie's, St. Louis, DePaul, San Francisco, Fordham, LaSalle, etc, BC - Boston market v. Worcester, $$$ from ACC football contract, academic standards for athletes not even remotely comparable Villanova - top dog in Philly market; somewhat unrelated but "Nova basically destroys the "you can't be good at basketball while sponsoring scholarship FCS football" argument. Providence - PC is probably the exact parallel of where we SHOULD be in the college basketball world, had the right athletics decisions been made. Again, academic standards apples to oranges. Seton Hall - Their best days are way behind them, BE membership only card they have to play at this suburban commuter school. Academics not close to comparable. Xavier - Along with Cincy, having no NBA team in a major league media market definitely helps elevate the two big college teams here. St. Joe's - like PC, probably somewhat comparable to where HC belongs in the college basketball world. Gonzaga - Academics don't compare. One of a kind mid-major. St. Bonnie's - See PC & St. Joe's. If Olean, NY can support an A-10 team, so could Worcester. St. Louis - Only DI college team in a major league market lacking an NBA team. STL should go back to the Valley IMO, though (unless they get invited to the BE). DePaul/Fordham/San Francisco/La Salle - which of these schools would you say are "doing it" in men's hoops? I'd rather be Bucknell or Vermont than any of these four.
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Post by DiMarz on Dec 28, 2017 21:29:47 GMT -5
I think one place that needs to really help elevate the programs at the Cross must begin with the student body..The students have to get to games and bring back that home court atmosphere. That will help our teams gain wins, and there for grow the programs...I think back to the early years of the Hart Center games..The stands were full 20 minutes before tipoff..Tickets were so hard to come by, the band doubled in size, with hopeful students/muscians wanting to get into the games (half the band played at home games on a rotating basis)..
I think when that type of atmosphere develops, everything else will take car of itself...road games against better competition, then home games (perhaps downtown), and eventually a step or two up in leagues.....
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Post by southernsader on Dec 28, 2017 21:46:30 GMT -5
Father Brooks "staying committed" was never the issue. He wanted no part of it. Thought (not wrongly) that college sports in general were going down a deleterious path. Exhibit A for him was what he considered the academically indefensible admission of Patrick Ewing to Georgetown.
All of that said, he was an enthusiastic fan and always present at the games, especially football, home and away.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 28, 2017 23:11:39 GMT -5
Southernsader I was not close to JEB and defer to you on his position, but from the conversations I was part of he appeared to be much closer to blessing the move the second time around (vs where he was during round 1) and EBW was fine with supporting the funding.
But like you said everybody knew how JEB felt personally about all leagues outside of the Ivies, and despite assurances by EBW the BEC was not comfortable even if JEB said yes- in other words despite it being a closer call, JEB may very well have stopped the process cold, but he also made the Commissioner, basketball leaders, ADs, and Presidents nervous that he could and would pull the plug at any time-and back then that was important
The PE piece is absolutely correct and there were many others admitted even less qualified, but it never hurt the academic reputation of the school, admission standards dramatically improved, and funding from alumni and other sources ( globally) took off to new levels. Beyond the negative direction of college athletics, I believe that is the piece JEB found most disturbing and hard to accept from another Jesuit institution.
The question remains if a change is desired what is the plan and strategy to shift away from the PL and what are the near term options? JEBs plan was to be an Ivy League institution or something close, but that approach hasn’t worked for us athletically or academically.
So what happens, if anything, between now and 2020?
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 28, 2017 23:35:36 GMT -5
I think one place that needs to really help elevate the programs at the Cross must begin with the student body..The students have to get to games and bring back that home court atmosphere. That will help our teams gain wins, and there for grow the programs...I think back to the early years of the Hart Center games..The stands were full 20 minutes before tipoff..Tickets were so hard to come by, the band doubled in size, with hopeful students/muscians wanting to get into the games (half the band played at home games on a rotating basis).. I think when that type of atmosphere develops, everything else will take car of itself...road games against better competition, then home games (perhaps downtown), and eventually a step or two up in leagues..... This will be our 4th consecutive losing season in MBB. It is understandable why they are disinterested in the program.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 28, 2017 23:46:09 GMT -5
the PL and what are the near term options? JEBs plan was to be an Ivy League institution or something close, but that approach hasn’t worked for us athletically or academically. So what happens, if anything, between now and 2020? No seismic changes will be occurring between now and the end of Trump's first term. Despite no tangible, to date, step up in play on the gridiron, hardwood or ice since NP took over, I do believe that most involved HC athletic alumni would concur that positive change IS happening. Personally, Bob Chesney excites me more than any coach hire since I set foot on the hill in August 2006, and by a landslide. We are all waiting patiently for Carmody to turn the basketball program around. I am personally somewhat skeptical of our program's progress the past three years and am not the biggest believer in HCBC's system. However, we should be very excited about this year's freshmen class. A strong incoming class and we could have something brewing.
While some like to put the cart in front of the horse, the math is simple. Step it up within the Patriot League -- and maybe dominate -- doors could open.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 28, 2017 23:50:08 GMT -5
I think one place that needs to really help elevate the programs at the Cross must begin with the student body..The students have to get to games and bring back that home court atmosphere. That will help our teams gain wins, and there for grow the programs That "home court atmosphere" hasn't been there since the 2007-2008 season. I'm lucky to have caught the very tail end of what was left of it.
These days 2,100 is a great crowd at the Hart. Sad.
While I may seem like a Debbie-downer here, I do firmly believe better times are coming.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 29, 2017 9:33:59 GMT -5
the PL and what are the near term options? JEBs plan was to be an Ivy League institution or something close, but that approach hasn’t worked for us athletically or academically. So what happens, if anything, between now and 2020? No seismic changes will be occurring between now and the end of Trump's first term. Despite no tangible, to date, step up in play on the gridiron, hardwood or ice since NP took over, I do believe that most involved HC athletic alumni would concur that positive change IS happening. Personally, Bob Chesney excites me more than any coach hire since I set foot on the hill in August 2006, and by a landslide. We are all waiting patiently for Carmody to turn the basketball program around. I am personally somewhat skeptical of our program's progress the past three years and am not the biggest believer in HCBC's system. However, we should be very excited about this year's freshmen class. A strong incoming class and we could have something brewing.
While some like to put the cart in front of the horse, the math is simple. Step it up within the Patriot League -- and maybe dominate -- doors could open.
Apparently a Patriot League title and NCAA tourney invite and win are not "tangible" for some reason. Why is that?
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Post by efg72 on Dec 29, 2017 10:17:29 GMT -5
Nobody suggested they weren’t tangible and important. Since the title of the thread is JUST WONDERING that is what is taking place. Can we get into a higher level league, would we attract talent in a way that makes the program sustainable, at what cost, what is the benefit risk?
Anyway i think there are opportunities to go in a different direction and do more with athletics, however, the question remains is there a will to change or is the desire to change more of a generational issue
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Post by trimster on Dec 29, 2017 11:29:51 GMT -5
I really wish those of you who insist on trumpeting the fact we broke our long drought of not winning an NCAA game by beating Southern several years ago would stop it. It was a play-in game. When we played a real tourney game several nights later, we got hammered. I'd trade that in any day for not making the tourney but being competitive in a conference like the A 10.
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Post by Tom on Dec 29, 2017 11:36:04 GMT -5
I really wish those of you who insist on trumpeting the fact we broke our long drought of not winning an NCAA game by beating Southern several years ago would stop it. It was a play-in game. When we played a real tourney game several nights later, we got hammered. I'd trade that in any day for not making the tourney but being competitive in a conference like the A 10. Like Fordham?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 29, 2017 11:44:53 GMT -5
I really wish those of you who insist on trumpeting the fact we broke our long drought of not winning an NCAA game by beating Southern several years ago would stop it. It was a play-in game. When we played a real tourney game several nights later, we got hammered. I'd trade that in any day for not making the tourney but being competitive in a conference like the A 10. Like Fordham? Good example: Fordham has had its two best A-10 seasons in last two years (8-10 then 7-11) making it 35-131 in the past ten seasons.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Dec 29, 2017 12:11:22 GMT -5
To those who think that simply writing a fat check & having the BoT aboard is all it takes to move up the conference ladder should ask Memphis how their pitch to the BXII went with the entire school all in, and FedEx essentially willing to underwrite the move.
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Post by lou on Dec 29, 2017 12:11:53 GMT -5
I'd trade that in any day for not making the tourney but being competitive in a conference like the A 10. A10 is a great league, but you may have wait just as long for us to be competitive in that league as we waited to win an NCAA game, if you're willing to count the Southern game
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Post by alum on Dec 29, 2017 12:17:13 GMT -5
If raising the College's profile via athletics is the only goal, there is only one path that I can see. These are the steps:
1. Drop football because FCS football doesn't help raise our profile and we cannot play BCS football with any success at all. 2. Drop as many sports as the PL will allow us to drop 3. Play a national OOC mens basketball schedule while pouring as much money as necessary into the program. (This would include a $1 million dollar or more head coach and well paid assistants.) 4. Win the PL several times. 5. Get in the Big East because, quite frankly, the A10 and the CAA are not worth it from a publicity perspective. 6. Succeed in the Big East (including by lowering admissions standards for basketball players)
This should not take more than 10-15 years to accomplish and then, maybe, just maybe we might see some results.
Another way to look at this is to remember that raising the college's profile to attract non athletes is the job of the Admissions Office. To the extent that athletics success helps that cause, that's great, but in the meantime, I would like to see more direct mail, more counselors going to more high schools and an increased endowment to allow the elimination of loans from financial aid packages and to guarantee every student $3500 for one summer of unpaid internship or research.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 29, 2017 13:32:17 GMT -5
Nobody suggested they weren’t tangible and important. Since the title of the thread is JUST WONDERING that is what is taking place. Can we get into a higher level league, would we attract talent in a way that makes the program sustainable, at what cost, what is the benefit risk? Anyway i think there are opportunities to go in a different direction and do more with athletics, however, the question remains is there a will to change or is the desire to change more I may have misread you. When you wrote this "Despite no tangible, to date, step up in play on the gridiron, hardwood or ice since NP took over" didn't that mean no tangible changes? Were you only referring to league affiliation?
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 29, 2017 13:36:50 GMT -5
I really wish those of you who insist on trumpeting the fact we broke our long drought of not winning an NCAA game by beating Southern several years ago would stop it. It was a play-in game. When we played a real tourney game several nights later, we got hammered. I'd trade that in any day for not making the tourney but being competitive in a conference like the A 10. Sorry, the first round games are no longer "play-in" games. It was a "real" NCAA tournament game. I wish those who wish it had not happened because you want to ignore it would start dealing with the fact that it did occur. You are ceratinly entitled to wish HC could be a mediocre A10 team, but don't lose track of reality in the process. I would never want to have the record Fordham has had in the A10.
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Post by trimster on Dec 29, 2017 13:37:25 GMT -5
I give Fordham some credit for at least attempting to compete in a recognized conference. Whether that was the right decision for them, how much of a commitment they have made to succeeding in the conference, decisions involving coaching hires, etc are open to debate. I am not for dropping any sports; I doubt we would be able to play a national out of conference schedule; feel there are conferences other than the Big East that are worth pursuing and have never bought the argument that HC has to make major academic concessions to succeed in a nationally competitive conference. During the time I was a student at HC, the men’s hoops program brought national recognition to the college with student-athletes like Potter, Vicens, Perry, Doran, O’Connor et al and as far as I could tell, didn’t lower its academic standards to do so. Since when are academic and athletic excellence mutually exclusive.
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Post by bikeman on Dec 29, 2017 13:46:38 GMT -5
If Alums path to success is the only way, get used to being a bottom level PL team. It's hard to believe that HC was once run by people with "guts", who weren't afraid to take chances. Yes, I know, that was a long, long time ago.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 29, 2017 14:06:31 GMT -5
Father Brooks "staying committed" was never the issue. He wanted no part of it. Thought (not wrongly) that college sports in general were going down a deleterious path. Exhibit A for him was what he considered the academically indefensible admission of Patrick Ewing to Georgetown. All of that said, he was an enthusiastic fan and always present at the games, especially football, home and away. Father Brooks wouldn't let HC join the A10 in 1982 ...HC was then in the predecessor of America East and ended up in the MAAC. Maybe he considered the Big East at a later date it out of respect for EBW and others...but does anyone truly think given what transpired before and after that he was ever close to actually doing it?
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Post by timholycross on Dec 29, 2017 14:18:30 GMT -5
If raising the College's profile via athletics is the only goal, there is only one path that I can see. These are the steps: 1. Drop football because FCS football doesn't help raise our profile and we cannot play BCS football with any success at all. 2. Drop as many sports as the PL will allow us to drop 3. Play a national OOC mens basketball schedule while pouring as much money as necessary into the program. (This would include a $1 million dollar or more head coach and well paid assistants.) 4. Win the PL several times. 5. Get in the Big East because, quite frankly, the A10 and the CAA are not worth it from a publicity perspective. 6. Succeed in the Big East (including by lowering admissions standards for basketball players) This should not take more than 10-15 years to accomplish and then, maybe, just maybe we might see some results. Another way to look at this is to remember that raising the college's profile to attract non athletes is the job of the Admissions Office. To the extent that athletics success helps that cause, that's great, but in the meantime, I would like to see more direct mail, more counselors going to more high schools and an increased endowment to allow the elimination of loans from financial aid packages and to guarantee every student $3500 for one summer of unpaid internship or research. #3 is interesting. What would it take for Holy Cross to play Bucknell's schedule? 3 p5 schools and 4 a10s it appears from a glance.
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