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Post by Tom on Dec 29, 2017 14:22:07 GMT -5
I . . .have never bought the argument that HC has to make major academic concessions to succeed in a nationally competitive conference. During the time I was a student at HC, the men’s hoops program brought national recognition to the college with student-athletes like Potter, Vicens, Perry, Doran, O’Connor et al and as far as I could tell, didn’t lower its academic standards to do so. Since when are academic and athletic excellence mutually exclusive. Back then the Georgetown's of the world weren't letting Patrick Ewing in the door either. Back in those days (before the advent of ESPN and stupid money) every school made some effort to having actual student athletes. With so much money on the table the top schools have abandoned the student half of the equation (at least for the guys with playing time) and simply have athletes wearing school uniforms. There are exceptions to the rule, but I firmly believe that at all the Power 5 conferences the last 30-50 kids academically let in the door are athletes playing revenue sports. ESPN and the money involved changed the entire landscape. Just because it was possible 40 years ago doesn't mean it's possible today
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Dec 29, 2017 14:35:34 GMT -5
It's absolutely mind-boggling that some simply cannot grasp that the NCAA landscape is not what it was in regards to HC in 1987 (FB), let alone in 1977 or earlier (MBB).
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Post by bikeman on Dec 29, 2017 14:45:20 GMT -5
What mind-boggles me is that some people think HC has to compromise it's academic principles to compete at a higher level.
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Post by trimster on Dec 29, 2017 15:02:50 GMT -5
I think if you surveyed HC alums, the vast majority, myself included, would say they’d rather see HC remain in the PL than do what Georgetown did under John Thompson as it relates to the academic side of the student athlete equation.
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Post by Tom on Dec 29, 2017 15:37:06 GMT -5
What mind-boggles me is that some people think HC has to compromise it's academic principles to compete at a higher level. Best guess. . . What percentage of scholarship basketball or football players at BC would not be in the school if they weren't athletes? Not kids who would be representative of the bottom 10 percent of admitted students, but kids that are totally off the bell curve. Just looking for a wild guess
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Post by hc87 on Dec 29, 2017 16:11:56 GMT -5
The irony of the situation is that we joined (in many ways, formed) the Colonial League on philosophical terms....now we are in many ways (according to O'Kane/Fenwick) "stuck/trapped" in the PL due to our faltering academic reputation.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 29, 2017 16:15:01 GMT -5
Did you get coal in your stocking again this year?
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Post by ncaam on Dec 29, 2017 17:07:54 GMT -5
I think if you surveyed HC alums, the vast majority, myself included, would say they’d rather see HC remain in the PL than do what Georgetown did under John Thompson as it relates to the academic side of the student athlete equation. We should be so lucky to have the current academic rating of Georgetown. Their bball athletes may not be academic stars but the rest of the school is solid +.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 30, 2017 0:10:41 GMT -5
What mind-boggles me is that some people think HC has to compromise it's academic principles to compete at a higher level. Best guess. . . What percentage of scholarship basketball or football players at BC would not be in the school if they weren't athletes? Not kids who would be representative of the bottom 10 percent of admitted students, but kids that are totally off the bell curve. Just looking for a wild guess Not nearly as many as the schools BC is competing against. I would think Duke, ND, WF and Virginia are comparable, but not the rest of the ACC.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 30, 2017 0:26:06 GMT -5
I love the hand-wringing, clutching of pearls we have over admitting football/basketball players at HC in 2017...it didn't hurt the school's academic reputation in the 1940s, 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s, when a solid argument could be made that the school's academic reputation was bettah then than it is now in 2017.
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Post by Tom on Dec 30, 2017 8:29:54 GMT -5
Best guess. . . What percentage of scholarship basketball or football players at BC would not be in the school if they weren't athletes? Not kids who would be representative of the bottom 10 percent of admitted students, but kids that are totally off the bell curve. Just looking for a wild guess Not nearly as many as the schools BC is competing against. I would think Duke, ND, WF and Virginia are comparable, but not the rest of the ACC. I don't disagree. I think BC has a significant percentage but fewer than their ACC bretheren. Of course that might be part of the reason BC isn't generally competitive in the ACC I'm not saying letting in a few kids who have no business going to the school would hurt the academic reputation of the school. Look at Georgetown . The response was to the statement about the school's academic principles. In my opinion even if the reputation of the school wasn't hurt, lowering standards for athletes would be compromising their academic principles
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 30, 2017 10:24:08 GMT -5
Ewing was the poster child for the benefits of lowering academic standards for one top notch player. He did ot hurt BC's academic reputation and in the long run the positives far outweighed any negatives. I remember the BC game against Georgetown where the students had a sheet in the rafters hat read "Everyone here can read this expect Patrick Ewing." Thompson refused to start the game until that was taken down. I admire him for that...not so much for his clear racist views in his recruiting.
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Post by trimster on Dec 30, 2017 10:50:40 GMT -5
Maybe it's time to complete the de-emphasis of HC athletics and see if Williams and Amherst will take us in. Since all we have to tout about the athletics program these days are participation rates and the stellar academic work of our student athletes, we might as well look for a way to reduce missed class time by competing in a league where we aren't a geographic outlier. A benefit to a more local league might the development of rivalries with neighboring colleges, alums and students actually being able to travel to away games and a reduction in travel costs. We could also see a considerable savings in coaches salaries and scholarship costs.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 30, 2017 10:58:06 GMT -5
Williams and Amherst are not at all interested in being joined by HC so we can forget about that. Would HC really want to join a league that is still, in this century, so anti-Catholic? We seem to be part of a group that it is still fair game to "offend."
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Post by trimster on Dec 30, 2017 11:04:59 GMT -5
When Holy Cross had a chance many, many years ago, to affiliate itself with a league that was largely Catholic, it said no.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 30, 2017 11:16:04 GMT -5
Maybe it's time to complete the de-emphasis of HC athletics and see if Williams and Amherst will take us in. Since all we have to tout about the athletics program these days are participation rates and the stellar academic work of our student athletes, we might as well look for a way to reduce missed class time by competing in a league where we aren't a geographic outlier. A benefit to a more local league might the development of rivalries with neighboring colleges, alums and students actually being able to travel to away games and a reduction in travel costs. We could also see a considerable savings in coaches salaries and scholarship costs. Don't know about NESCAC but when very expensive programs are losing and the academic reputation is flagging it is natural to look for change. I don't necessarily agree that the University of Chicago or Tufts or Brandeis or Williams athletic route is right for us but there is nothing wrong with constant reexamination. Heck, a partial cut, like Boston University and Northeastern, might even be in order.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 30, 2017 11:17:18 GMT -5
Ewing was the poster child for the benefits of lowering academic standards for one top notch player. He did ot hurt BC's academic reputation and in the long run the positives far outweighed any negatives. Ewing went to Georgetown. Georgetown also admitted Allen Iverson.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 30, 2017 11:19:33 GMT -5
Ewing was the poster child for the benefits of lowering academic standards for one top notch player. He did ot hurt BC's academic reputation and in the long run the positives far outweighed any negatives. Ewing went to Georgetown. Georgetown also admitted Allen Iverson. At this point our academic reputation is not nearly Georgetown or BC but nevertheless, it is an interesting point.
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Post by Xmassader on Dec 30, 2017 14:41:04 GMT -5
When the Kevin Condron-led Athletic Committee of the BOT was asked to evaluate the direction of HC athletics @ 1995, possible membership in NESCAC was explored and NESCAC indicated an unwillngness to accept HC. Some posters like to say that the ship to get into the NBE or A-10 has sailed. I don’t happen to agree. But if the ship to get into the NBE or A-10 has sailed, the ship to get into NESCAC has sunk.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 31, 2017 19:23:17 GMT -5
If raising the College's profile via athletics is the only goal, there is only one path that I can see. These are the steps: 1. Drop football because FCS football doesn't help raise our profile and we cannot play BCS football with any success at all. 2. Drop as many sports as the PL will allow us to drop 3. Play a national OOC mens basketball schedule while pouring as much money as necessary into the program. (This would include a $1 million dollar or more head coach and well paid assistants.) 4. Win the PL several times. 5. Get in the Big East because, quite frankly, the A10 and the CAA are not worth it from a publicity perspective.6. Succeed in the Big East (including by lowering admissions standards for basketball players) This should not take more than 10-15 years to accomplish and then, maybe, just maybe we might see some results. Another way to look at this is to remember that raising the college's profile to attract non athletes is the job of the Admissions Office. To the extent that athletics success helps that cause, that's great, but in the meantime, I would like to see more direct mail, more counselors going to more high schools and an increased endowment to allow the elimination of loans from financial aid packages and to guarantee every student $3500 for one summer of unpaid internship or research. Obviously we can never raise our basketball profile while sponsoring FCS football. Maybe we should follow Villanova's footsteps and drop the sport. That's how the won the national championship two years ago, right?
4 to 5 is quite a leap. Butler had to first leap into the A-10 before getting invited to the Big East. And that was after reaching the NATIONALCHAMPIONSHIP GAME twice in a row. And obviously they must not have an FCS football team because otherwise men's basketball success in Division I would be impossible. But then again, they are lowly Butler. We are mighty HOLY CROSS and the barriers to entry to the Big East will part like the Red Sea merely by re-creating Willard-era level of success in the PL.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 31, 2017 19:26:55 GMT -5
Sarcasm right? You are aware Villanova plays and was national FCS football champs a few years back. I have not read they dropped the sport.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 31, 2017 20:11:31 GMT -5
Sarcasm right? You are aware Villanova plays and was national FCS football champs a few years back. I have not read they dropped the sport. Yes, you win a Matt Szczur-autographed bobblehead.
I was in Philly for our FCS Round of 16 loss to the eventual national champs. As it turns out, we gave them almost a good a game as any they would face that postseason. The next week, they bulldozed UNH something like 45-6 in a snowstorm.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 31, 2017 20:30:24 GMT -5
I was there at that game as well and pretty sure no other team came closer to winning than us.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 31, 2017 21:15:22 GMT -5
I was there at that game as well and pretty sure no other team came closer to winning than us. The google machine and wiki are your friends....great game against Nova but they eked out closer games against Bill&Mary and Montana on their way to the natty. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_NCAA_Division_I_FCS_football_season
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Post by lou on Jan 1, 2018 8:41:40 GMT -5
Wicked cold that day at Nova, we had the sunny side however
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