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Post by gks on Jun 21, 2018 8:20:02 GMT -5
RI is going to be given every opportunity to get their crap together with this...as they should. Whether they do or not is another question.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Jun 21, 2018 9:00:44 GMT -5
I would be shocked if this doesn't go RIs way at the final bell.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 21, 2018 9:17:37 GMT -5
The only sure thing is that either Pawtucket/RI or Worcester/MA are going to be ticked off when it goes the other way. No question in my mind that the XXXSox are playing off one against the other. While annoying to the local citizenry in both places, a smart move for any business.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Jun 21, 2018 9:28:39 GMT -5
Unless the state of RI changes their position last minute and backs the bonds I don’t see the team staying in Pawtucket. After the 38 Studios mess the likelihood of R.I. guaranteeing the bonds is slim.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 21, 2018 9:48:26 GMT -5
Yeah, but that involved a former Red Sox player. This has nothing to do with the Red Sox. Oh, wait.
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Post by timholycross on Jun 21, 2018 12:22:14 GMT -5
Yeah, but that involved a former Red Sox player. This has nothing to do with the Red Sox. Oh, wait. ...if you look at the word "slippery" in Webster's, you'll find a photo of Larry Lucchino next to it.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 21, 2018 12:37:32 GMT -5
Thank goodness, New York never had that kind of issue . . . . oh, wait . . . . Steinbrenner and that real estate tycoon, whatever his name is.
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Post by Tom on Jun 21, 2018 13:41:38 GMT -5
Unless the state of RI changes their position last minute and backs the bonds I don’t see the team staying in Pawtucket. After the 38 Studios mess the likelihood of R.I. guaranteeing the bonds is slim. One minor difference - that was a start up. This is a business that has been going for 45 years. That doesn't mean the 38 thing won't affect their thought process, just that backing a startup is different than backing an ongoing enterprise
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Post by rf1 on Jun 22, 2018 17:32:32 GMT -5
The PawSox bill passes the RI House: Will need to be reconciled with the long ago passed Senate bill. Governor has already expressed support and will sign a bill. It looks like the team will have an offer from RI for its consideration.
PawSox stadium financing bill passes R.I. House
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Post by cmo on Jun 23, 2018 14:43:38 GMT -5
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 23, 2018 15:05:26 GMT -5
No surprise--wasn't this the plan all along?
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Post by rf1 on Jun 23, 2018 16:07:40 GMT -5
No surprise--wasn't this the plan all along?
Nothing is actually settled at this point. It however appears that the PawSox will likely have two offers to consider - Pawtucket and Worcester. Details of the Worcester proposal to spend tens of millions of taxpayer money are not yet known as city and state leaders have chosen not to seek the input or involvement of the general public, instead doing all dealings behind closed doors. Based on unsubstantiated rumors, the Worcester stadium deal may be more attractive requiring less investment from the team. The Pawtucket offer however may be a better long term option given its location in the larger market, more sponsorship potential, established fan base, etc...It will be up to the ownership to decide what it feels is best.
The PawSox are owned by a group of partners. They include former Boston Red Sox President and CEO Larry Lucchino, Bernard Cammarata (former TJX CEO), William P. Egan (part time Newport resident/venture capitalist & part owner of Boston Celtics), Habib Gorgi (Providence based Nautic Partners Manager) , Paul Salem (richest RI resident worth est 1B+/Brown alum/co-founder and Senior Managing Director of Providence Equity Partners), James Skeffington, Jr (CVS exec and son of the deceased well connected RI lawyer that was president of PawSox prior to Lucchino), J. Terrence Murray (RI native & resident/former Fleet Bank CEO), Thomas M. Ryan (URI alum/RI resident/former CVS CEO), as well as Fenway Sports Management (a division of the BoSox' parent company, Fenway Sports Group), and two limited partners in FSG, Arthur E. Nicholas and Frank M. Resnek.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Jun 23, 2018 18:56:30 GMT -5
The International League needs to sign off on this deal as well. They have already announced publicly they will not agree to the deal offered by the state of Rhode Island. Also, what is this idea that the “market” around Pawtucket is bigger? I bet there are more people living within 1 hour of Worcester than there are within 1 hour of Pawtucket. Worcester is the better location, Worcester is where this team belongs. If the Pawsox ownership decides to remain where they are under much worse financial terms I will tip my cap to them. Loyalty is something rare in this day and age. And believe me, I really want them to move to Worcester.
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Post by hc6774 on Jun 24, 2018 6:17:38 GMT -5
last evening local Fox News announced that RI [legislature & governor] & the club have agreed to a deal & that Worcester had lost out.
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 24, 2018 6:39:53 GMT -5
Perhaps Worcester should get behind teams that will actually "be there" now and in the future...like Holy Cross?
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Jun 24, 2018 6:45:47 GMT -5
last evening local Fox News announced that RI [legislature & governor] & the club have agreed to a deal & that Worcester had lost out. I checked every news outlet and the Fox Providence news website and saw no story stating what you said. Do you have a link? I would think that would be the headline at least on the Worcester Telegram website.
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Post by hc6774 on Jun 24, 2018 7:02:23 GMT -5
last evening local Fox News announced that RI [legislature & governor] & the club have agreed to a deal & that Worcester had lost out. I checked every news outlet and the Fox Providence news website and saw no story stating what you said. Do you have a link? I would think that would be the headline at least on the Worcester Telegram website. agree... don't see it any place... it was on the 11pm newscast and specifically called it a 3 way deal... legislature, governor & the club... earlier reports note the passage of the necessary legislation Friday... another report suggests the deal is dependant on the success of the bond sales, i.e. Worcester is not out yet.
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Post by rf1 on Jun 24, 2018 9:08:29 GMT -5
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Post by rf1 on Jun 24, 2018 9:59:53 GMT -5
The International League needs to sign off on this deal as well. They have already announced publicly they will not agree to the deal offered by the state of Rhode Island. Also, what is this idea that the “market” around Pawtucket is bigger? I bet there are more people living within 1 hour of Worcester than there are within 1 hour of Pawtucket. Worcester is the better location, Worcester is where this team belongs. If the Pawsox ownership decides to remain where they are under much worse financial terms I will tip my cap to them. Loyalty is something rare in this day and age. And believe me, I really want them to move to Worcester.
While the International league has final approval, they have not not made any announcement that it will oppose the RI stadium proposal. To my knowledge, its only comment has been it has some concerns about the investment by the team. Not surprisingly, it likes deals where the taxpayer is more fleeced (Worcester would probably be more to their liking in that respect but I would imagine they will yield to the will of the team).
The Providence metro market is nearly twice the size of that of Worcester. There is no real debate about market size.
Pawtucket, which along with the state of RI has embraced and supported the team, has been the home of the PawSox for 45 years and it is where the rightfully team belongs. It is the far better location via its market and stadium site right next to the heavily traveled Route 95 (daily traffic in 2010 was 162,000 vehicles).
If the team chooses Worcester, it may do so at its own peril as the city has a well documented history of failed minor league sports teams. Attendance will likely never reach the numbers it did in Pawtucket or what it could do there with a new ballpark. Corporate sponsorship money (currently 3M/yr in Pawtucket) will likely be far less per Bill Ballou of the Telegram. Ballou has also in the past indicated that Worcester not having any over the air tv stations news broadcasts throughout its entire metro was a problem for its former AHL teams. Not having free daily highlights shown on the news each night keeping the team in the public eye was seen as a missing ingredient in driving attendance.
The Worcester stadium deal is thought to be the better deal on that front. It will however be very interesting to see how the public reacts to the plan once all the details come out and taxpayers see how much of their money will be spent. While the upfront money by the team will be less in Worcester, the long term financial operating prospects are likely better in RI. Keep in mind that there is much more risk in making a move than staying where you already know the market and its potential. PawSox ownership, with several prominent Rhode Islanders among its partners, will have to weigh all the factors and make a decision based on what they deem best meets their objectives.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Jun 24, 2018 10:24:45 GMT -5
The International League needs to sign off on this deal as well. They have already announced publicly they will not agree to the deal offered by the state of Rhode Island. Also, what is this idea that the “market” around Pawtucket is bigger? I bet there are more people living within 1 hour of Worcester than there are within 1 hour of Pawtucket. Worcester is the better location, Worcester is where this team belongs. If the Pawsox ownership decides to remain where they are under much worse financial terms I will tip my cap to them. Loyalty is something rare in this day and age. And believe me, I really want them to move to Worcester.
While the International league has final approval, they have not not made any announcement that it will oppose the RI stadium proposal. To my knowledge, its only comment has been it has some concerns about the investment by the team. Not surprisingly, it likes deals where the taxpayer is more fleeced (Worcester would probably be more to their liking in that respect but I would imagine they will yield to the will of the team).
The Providence metro market is nearly twice the size of that of Worcester. There is no real debate about market size.
Pawtucket, which along with the state of RI has embraced and supported the team, has been the home of the PawSox for 45 years and it is where the rightfully team belongs. It is the far better location via its market and stadium site right next to the heavily traveled Route 95 (daily traffic in 2010 was 162,000 vehicles).
If the team chooses Worcester, it may do so at its own peril as the city has a well documented history of failed minor league sports teams. Attendance will likely never reach the numbers it did in Pawtucket or what it could do there with a new ballpark. Corporate sponsorship money (currently 3M/yr in Pawtucket) will likely be far less per Bill Ballou of the Telegram. Ballou has also in the past indicated that Worcester not having any over the air tv stations news broadcasts throughout its entire metro was a problem for its former AHL teams. Not having free daily highlights shown on the news each night keeping the team in the public eye was seen as a missing ingredient in driving attendance.
The Worcester stadium deal is thought to be the better deal on that front. It will however be very interesting to see how the public reacts to the plan once all the details come out and taxpayers see how much of their money will be spent. While the upfront money by the team will be less in Worcester, the long term financial operating prospects are likely better in RI. Keep in mind that there is much more risk in making a move than staying where you already know the market and its potential. PawSox ownership, with several prominent Rhode Islanders among its partners, will have to weigh all the factors and make a decision based on what they deem best meets their objectives.
Disagree on the corporate sponsorship, per Bill Ballou’s articles the team was very impressed by the corporate support in Worcester. And if you are talking market size you have to go beyond Worcester County to also include Marlboro, Hudson, Framingham, Natick and even out to Springfield. I think there is more population within an hour of Worcester than there is Pawtucket. Also, I wouldn’t spend one cent on the junk bonds offered to finance the Pawtucket deal. As far as the AHL teams I disagree they were failed ventures, the Sharks moved because of AHL expansion, and moved 3,000 miles to be closer to the parent club. The Icecats got new owners and moved the team. The area where the Worcester stadium is proposed is a far better spot than anywhere Pawtucket would offer. Attendance would be far better in Worcester than in Pawtucket.
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Post by rf1 on Jun 24, 2018 10:25:34 GMT -5
To be clear, let me state that I am not against Worcester getting a professional minor league baseball team. I however do want it to do so by stealing the team I grew up with in my native city. A team that, while living across the state border in North Alltleborough-MA is still just five miles away from my home (I can hear the fireworks at the stadium after the games regularly as I did last night). If Pawtucket were to keep the PawSox, I would hope that its management not block any prospective Worcester team given all the cooperation the city extended to them. I would hope that the cities/communities of the Blackstone River National Heritage Corridor do no harm to one another.
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Post by rf1 on Jun 24, 2018 10:39:21 GMT -5
While the International league has final approval, they have not not made any announcement that it will oppose the RI stadium proposal. To my knowledge, its only comment has been it has some concerns about the investment by the team. Not surprisingly, it likes deals where the taxpayer is more fleeced (Worcester would probably be more to their liking in that respect but I would imagine they will yield to the will of the team).
The Providence metro market is nearly twice the size of that of Worcester. There is no real debate about market size.
Pawtucket, which along with the state of RI has embraced and supported the team, has been the home of the PawSox for 45 years and it is where the rightfully team belongs. It is the far better location via its market and stadium site right next to the heavily traveled Route 95 (daily traffic in 2010 was 162,000 vehicles).
If the team chooses Worcester, it may do so at its own peril as the city has a well documented history of failed minor league sports teams. Attendance will likely never reach the numbers it did in Pawtucket or what it could do there with a new ballpark. Corporate sponsorship money (currently 3M/yr in Pawtucket) will likely be far less per Bill Ballou of the Telegram. Ballou has also in the past indicated that Worcester not having any over the air tv stations news broadcasts throughout its entire metro was a problem for its former AHL teams. Not having free daily highlights shown on the news each night keeping the team in the public eye was seen as a missing ingredient in driving attendance.
The Worcester stadium deal is thought to be the better deal on that front. It will however be very interesting to see how the public reacts to the plan once all the details come out and taxpayers see how much of their money will be spent. While the upfront money by the team will be less in Worcester, the long term financial operating prospects are likely better in RI. Keep in mind that there is much more risk in making a move than staying where you already know the market and its potential. PawSox ownership, with several prominent Rhode Islanders among its partners, will have to weigh all the factors and make a decision based on what they deem best meets their objectives.
Disagree on the corporate sponsorship, per Bill Ballou’s articles the team was very impressed by the corporate support in Worcester. And if you are talking market size you have to go beyond Worcester County to also include Marlboro, Hudson, Framingham, Natick and even out to Springfield. I think there is more population within an hour of Worcester than there is Pawtucket. Also, I wouldn’t spend one cent on the junk bonds offered to finance the Pawtucket deal. As far as the AHL teams I disagree they were failed ventures, the Sharks moved because of AHL expansion, and moved 3,000 miles to be closer to the parent club. The Icecats got new owners and moved the team. The area where the Worcester stadium is proposed is a far better spot than anywhere Pawtucket would offer. Attendance would be far better in Worcester than in Pawtucket.
Regarding sponsorship, I am going off what Bill Ballou himself wrote several months ago. Regarding market size, no reasonable demographics expert would back your assertion. Claiming that Worcester would draw better is fool's gold since there is nothing to back it up. The team, with its current less than ideal location some one mile from the highway, has already achieved many seasons with attendance over 600k, once even as high as 688k. Its past attendance as well as AHL comparisons between Providence and Worcester all point toward higher attendance in RI. It is a fact that the RI teams have more often than not been among the highest attendance teams in both the International League and AHL for much of the last two decades. To the disappointment of many Holy Cross fans, RI also has a history of far better support for its college teams as well. Market size and local media matter.
The PawSox rightful home is where it already is and has been for some 45 years.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 24, 2018 14:28:13 GMT -5
rf1, forget 45 years in Pawtucket. Tradition means nothing. The owners of the P/WSox are businessmen. Heck, even Holy Cross has recently shown tradition means nothing and, of course, the College is a "business" too - just less obviously so. [Personal observation: the HC Fund is taking a hit this fiscal year and deservedly so].
I certainly admire your support for keeping the AAA team in Pawtucket but if I recall rightly, the PawSox were looking to become the ProSox by moving to Providence because Pawtucket really isn't the Garden of Eden and they thought a downtown location would be a big success. PVD demurred. So, this isn't a "Providence is a bigger market than Worcester" discussion. It is Worcester vs. Pawtucket.
Worcester has historically been the second largest city in New England to Boston. Providence has beaten them out a couple of census years, so it's close. Last I saw, Worcester took the lead again. I don't think there are a lot of Westerly fans of the PawSox and going to McCoy, or Newport or (name any RI town 10 miles south of Providence). The very newness of having an AAA-level baseball team in Worcester would draw better, at least initially, than Pawtucket. A new Pawtucket stadium is probably not going to drive a lot of new PawSox fans but will make those who already fans happy. A new team and a new stadium in Worcester will likely draw better in the long run especially if they play well.
As for TV, how many people watch the PawSox on RI TV? (sort of rhetorical as the answer is likely virtually nil and on a cable channel).
Whatever the decision, it'll be interesting because the Sox owners will owe everyone an explanation of why they chose the way they did as this looks like a toss-up to me.
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Post by Tom on Jun 24, 2018 16:36:37 GMT -5
Random question: Do channels 12 and 10 (or whatever WJAR is after the NBC Boston thing) give PawSox highlights on the nightly news?
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Post by rf1 on Jun 24, 2018 16:56:55 GMT -5
Random question: Do channels 12 and 10 (or whatever WJAR is after the NBC Boston thing) give PawSox highlights on the nightly news?
There are four nightly newscasts for Providence - WJAR (10 NBC), WPRI (12 CBS), WLNE (6 ABC), and WNAC (64 Fox managed by WPRI with a 10pm newscast). They all have the score of PawSox (and PBruins) games every night and often have video highlights. The stations will also have live telecasts on certain occasions as part of the 6pm newcasts (such as opening day or if a Boston player is down for rehab). This is free PR for the teams every day of the baseball season constantly keeping the team in the public eye. Bill Ballou of the Telegram has written the lack of this in Worcester was seen as a negative disadvantage for its since departed AHL teams.
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