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Post by trimster on Jun 14, 2018 15:39:56 GMT -5
Since his name has come up in a recent thread, I thought I'd bring up the possibility of adding Keith Hochstein's name and number to the group we have in the rafters of the Hart Center. Keith's numbers aren't as glossy as some due to the fact he only played in 58 varsity games but his averages of 20.2 points per game and 11.5 rebounds per game place him among the truly elite players in HC hoops history. Off the top of my head, I'd say others who deserve strong consideration are Ed Siudut and Rob Feaster. After those 3, I would say the group that deserves consideration consists of Potter and Vicens, Dwight Pernell, John Wendelken, Jim McCaffrey and Bob Kissane. Three guys whose point totals don't jump out at you but I feel deserve some mention when talking about our all-time greats are Ron Perry Sr., Stan Grayson and Jave Meade.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 14, 2018 15:50:30 GMT -5
Chris Potter would be my top choice among the players listed above but I did not see all of them play. I do love hearing the Hochstein stories from those lucky enough to see him play
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Post by hchoops on Jun 14, 2018 16:39:08 GMT -5
First, NP must be convinced
He says that only 1st team All Americans are eligible
Potter is my first choice if NP caves. Keith next.
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Post by possum on Jun 14, 2018 17:01:38 GMT -5
Potter and Vicens should go in as a tandem, they came in together and immediately turned a losing program into a winner and turned the city onto HC basketball again. Unfortunately, decisions made by the powers to be derailed the momentum these two players started and altered the course of HC basketball forever.
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Post by trimster on Jun 14, 2018 18:45:42 GMT -5
Forever is a long time but sadly, I think you are right. The power that be basically eviscerated the program.
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Post by Tom on Jun 15, 2018 9:38:20 GMT -5
IF someone had to go, I think it should be Potter. That being said, I'm perfectly happy with the All American rule. It doesn't need to be cluttered. If you follow the football ring of honor rule and take one from each era every year, it cheapens the honor.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 15, 2018 10:20:57 GMT -5
Agree. There should be some outside (more "objective") standards than just a player that we (purple glasses) feel was great. All-American status makes sense to me and very defensible to any outside observers and fans of opponents who wander into the Hart Center. I'd rather see fewer but outstanding names/numbers in the rafters.
Who is left? Ron Perry, Jr.'s number, I don't think is hanging there yet.
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 15, 2018 10:55:32 GMT -5
Every Holy Cross name mentioned is certainly worthy of Hall of Fame status...but a name in the rafters is (and needs to be - to remain special) something more than that. I could see bending the All-American rule, but it would take some truly unique accomplishment to offset that, IMHO.  |
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Post by alum on Jun 15, 2018 11:05:21 GMT -5
Whose numbers are up there right now? Kaftan, Cousy, Palazzi, Heinshon, RP, Sr., RP, Jr, and Jack the Shot? Am I missing anyone?
If the standard is going to be first team All American, we will never raise another number and maybe that's OK. Perhaps, there are other ways to honor people.
I would suggest that they find a place in the Hart Lobby to set up rotating exhibitions about HC basketball history. They could have pictures and video to watch. Perhaps busts of players. For instance, there could be one honoring Potter and Vincens. They could have an early season half time event honoring them. RP, Jr and GB could be asked to speak. Then the display could be up for a season. Another topic might be the great shooters of Holy Cross and Tommy H, RP Jr and Jack the Shot could introduce Rob Feaster and Jim McCaffrey with a special display for Scooter Tropf's record setting season.
You get the drift. This provides a reason to have an event and bring people to games. You could do it men and women in alternate seasons.
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Post by Ignutz on Jun 15, 2018 12:47:41 GMT -5
Whose numbers are up there right now? Kaftan, Cousy, Palazzi, Heinshon, RP, Sr., RP, Jr, and Jack the Shot? Am I missing anyone? If the standard is going to be first team All American, we will never raise another number and maybe that's OK. Perhaps, there are other ways to honor people. I would suggest that they find a place in the Hart Lobby to set up rotating exhibitions about HC basketball history. They could have pictures and video to watch. Perhaps busts of players. For instance, there could be one honoring Potter and Vincens. They could have an early season half time event honoring them. RP, Jr and GB could be asked to speak. Then the display could be up for a season. Another topic might be the great shooters of Holy Cross and Tommy H, RP Jr and Jack the Shot could introduce Rob Feaster and Jim McCaffrey with a special display for Scooter Tropf's record setting season. You get the drift. This provides a reason to have an event and bring people to games. You could do it men and women in alternate seasons. If the criteria is First Team All-America, I think we should resign ourselves to the fact that we're done raising jerseys. That being said, however, I wrote to ADNP in late 2014 to make the case for Chris Potter. His stats are beyond what most of us realize. Excerpts from my letter follow:
Chris was a three-time All East first team selection, a three-time All New England selection, a four-time NABC All-District selection, a 3rd team Academic All-America selection in 1977 and a 2nd team Academic All-America selection in 1978. He was elected to the New England Basketball Hall of Fame in 2006, and is one of only three Holy Cross basketball players to be elected to the Holy Cross Varsity Club Hall of Fame in his first year of eligibility – the others being Bob Cousy in the first year of the Hall of Fame in 1956 and Ron Perry, Jr. in 1985.
Statistically, Chris’s record is unmatched:
• There is only one basketball player in Holy Cross history in the top ten in points scored, rebounds and assists. That player is Chris Potter, and he’s in the top five in each of those categories.
o Chris is the school’s fifth leading scorer with 1789 points, and two of the players (Rob Feaster and Dwight Pernell) ahead of Chris had the advantage of having a three-point shot available. In fact, if you gave Pernell only two points for each of his threes, Chris would rank #4 is scoring.
• Chris is the third-ranked rebounder in Holy Cross history and one of only three players to finish his career with over 1000 points and 1000 rebounds. The other two are Tom Heinsohn and Togo Palazzi.
• Chris is ranked fourth all-time in assists, and, I believe, is the only “big man” in the top ten in this category.
o Chris is tied for second place for the most assists in a game (16) – and he was a forward!
• Unfortunately, it appears that the “Steals” statistics were not maintained in the mid-1970s, but I would bet that research would find Chris in the top-ten in this category as well. He was a smothering presence in the face of an opposing player attempting to inbound the ball against the full-court press.
• Chris’s top five ranking in these critical categories comes despite the fact that he is not in the top ten in Games Played or Minutes Played. In four years, the team played 116 games, and Chris played in 115 – starting each one, I believe. (My recollection is that the only game he missed was the result of a back injury as a sophomore.)
• Chris led the team in scoring (tied with Mike Vicens) as a freshman in 1975, led the team in rebounding in each of his four years, led the team in assists in 1977 and 1978 (his junior and senior years), and as a senior, led the team in field-goal percentage (.591).
From a team perspective:
• There have only been three teams in school history to graduate with four twenty-win seasons – 1953, 1954 and Chris’s 1978 team.
• The 1978 team had a four-year winning percentage of .733 – the best four year record since 1963 (.750), and un-matched since.
History making:
• Prior to Sunday’s win against Harvard (@td Garden 11/16/14), the last time Holy Cross beat a ranked opponent was in March 1977 when Chris hit a shot at the buzzer to beat eighth-ranked Providence College and send Holy Cross to the NCAA tournament for the first time since 1956.
• Less than three months earlier, Chris hit a buzzer beater to beat Providence and win the inaugural Colonial Classic tournament at a sold-out Boston Garden.
• Sports Illustrated had HC ranked #9 in its pre-season issue in November 1977
• The last time Holy Cross was ranked nationally was in 1977-78 when we opened the season at #17 and rose to #14 in mid-January (it was only a Top-20 back then).
Just sayin'..........................
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Post by trimster on Jun 15, 2018 12:47:49 GMT -5
RP Sr has a special plaque detailing his great contributions to HC athletics that is on display in the lobby of the Hart Center. It was unveiled the same day RP Jr and Jack the Shot's numbers were hoisted to the rafters. Ron Sr's number isn't in the rafters. I really like the idea of having an exhibit area in the lobby promoting the rich history of Holy Cross basketball.
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Post by hchoops on Jun 15, 2018 12:58:55 GMT -5
Ignutz,
Fine job in advancing Chris’ cause. One award you omitted was Chris’ Crusader of the year as the top senior athlete. I believe that only Ronnie P and Tom H were the only other hoops recipients of that high honor.
I wrote to NPine making the same argument with an unsolicited endorsement from Togo. That is when Pine responded with the first team All America criteria.
I do not want the high number that football has ( and will continue to grow)in the ring of honor, but I do want past, present and future players like Chris to be omitted because of Pine’s seemingly arbitrary criteria.
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Post by trimster on Jun 15, 2018 13:12:26 GMT -5
Regarding Chris Potter, I have been following HC basketball for going on 55 years, (hello Lloyd Hinchey and John Wendelken), and Chris Potter is my favorite player. I think what makes him unique are the ability to pass the basketball for a forward and his uncanny ability to be a one-man press by stealing inbounds passes as the point man of the press. Ignutz detailed both of those so well above.
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Post by Tom on Jun 15, 2018 13:18:24 GMT -5
RP Sr has a special plaque detailing his great contributions to HC athletics that is on display in the lobby of the Hart Center. It was unveiled the same day RP Jr and Jack the Shot's numbers were hoisted to the rafters. Ron Sr's number isn't in the rafters. I really like the idea of having an exhibit area in the lobby promoting the rich history of Holy Cross basketball. RP Sr's special plaque was on display in the lobby. I'm not sure I saw it there last season in the new re-designed set up. In all fairness, the building wasn't officially open at the time and that kind of stuff would be last |
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jun 15, 2018 13:53:45 GMT -5
Ignutz, I do not want the high number that football has ( and will continue to grow)in the ring of honor, but I do want past, present and future players like Chris to be omitted because of Pine’s seemingly arbitrary criteria. All-American accolades is not an arbitrary criterion. I like the Celtics, and there have many deserving players historically, but having every other number retired in the rafters is a bit much. If HC can't get players who truly shook the landscape of the program and had big, impact wins, then shame on us. We can't put names in the rafters because we're/they're "due." |
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 15, 2018 13:59:05 GMT -5
Have to agree with WCHC. It is not impossible that HC could still see an All-American down the road. It is a solid starting point to think of when considering this honor. I would qualify it by saying "All-American," but not limit it to only first team.
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Post by CHC8485 on Jun 15, 2018 13:59:38 GMT -5
Not sure it's Pine's standard as I seem to recall that being said before Nate arrived. Regardless, I feel the standard has to change for 2 reasons - 5 of the 6 guys who played over a 15 year period (Kaftan, Cooz, Heinsohn, Togo, & Jack the shot) that ended almost 60 years ago plus Ronnie Perry (almost 40 years ago). The history of HC basketball is much deeper than that and the men who (and women by the way) who represent the best of that history deserve some recognition.
- I think we all recognize that the liklihood of a Holy Cross player crossing the All-American standard is very low and so you'd like the players you're recruiting today to be able to think, maybe someday ...
Not saying we have to become the Yankees or Celtics and hang the jersey of every all-star who played on a championship team, but c'mon. Maybe any all-america team (1st, 2nd, or 3rd) which only adds Ed Siudut or academic all-americans (any team) - Siudut, Chris Potter, & Jim Nairus - or PL scholar athlete of the year (Nairus) makes sense. Academic All-Americans would add a few women too (Sherry Levin, Ann Lambiotte, Kathy Courtney & Amy O’Brien). And maybe you make the first team All-Americans stand out by making them a different color or larger - or put them at one end of the gyme and the others at the other end. Lots of ways to distinguish them. We deviated from the tradition of only having banners for the 2 championship teams to having banners for any team that made the NCAA or NIT. We can modify the rules here too. And while I'm at it, can we ditch the vinyl banners (both jerseys & NCAA/NIT) and make them cloth? Loved the old felt NCAA & NIT banners. Much more classic look than the plastic. I'd settle for nylon as they hang so much better than the stiff vinyl. And when we change them, I'd suggest making the 1947 & 1954 banners purple so they stand out in the sea of other banners - again, an attempt to highlight the special place those teams have in the history of HC basketball. |
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 15, 2018 14:02:39 GMT -5
chc8485,
Nicely put!
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Post by hchoops on Jun 15, 2018 14:03:38 GMT -5
Ignutz, I do not want the high number that football has ( and will continue to grow)in the ring of honor, but I do want past, present and future players like Chris to be omitted because of Pine’s seemingly If HC can't get players who truly shook the landscape of the program and had big, impact wins, then shame on us. To someone who never saw him play, Chris did both Some opposing coaches told me that when he and Ronnie played together they respected and planned defenses more for Chris |
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 15, 2018 14:10:22 GMT -5
The Luth Athletic Complex has 281,000 square feet. I've been on a couple of tours but never pay enough attention to various rooms within because it is so big.
For me, you keep the 1st Team All-Americans having their special place in the rafters - a pantheon of heroes. Others (lesser mortals?) like Potter, Vicens, Siudut, Hochstein, etc. should have a dedicated room for those who don't qualify for the summit of the rafters but were excellent in their own right. There has to be enough room for them in a $95 million facility and would be worth showing the history of Crusader basketball to recruits.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 15, 2018 14:13:36 GMT -5
Yes! Make a distinction between actually winning and a "participation trophy." I also don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility that we will have another 1st team All-American. Highly unlikely but not impossible. |
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Post by trimster on Jun 15, 2018 14:20:18 GMT -5
Amen to the dedicated room idea for mere mortals and while we are at it, include coaches Julian, Sheary, Blaney and Willard.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jun 15, 2018 14:30:23 GMT -5
The Luth Athletic Complex has 281,000 square feet. I've been on a couple of tours but never pay enough attention to various rooms within because it is so big. For me, you keep the 1st Team All-Americans having their special place in the rafters - a pantheon of heroes. Others (lesser mortals?) like Potter, Vicens, Siudut, Hochstein, etc. should have a dedicated room for those who don't qualify for the summit of the rafters but were excellent in their own right. There has to be enough room for them in a $95 million facility and would be worth showing the history of Crusader basketball to recruits. The names mentioned that have displayed additional meritorious accomplishments in Basketball, can be in the Blaney Gym. From past conversations, it was mentioned that video monitors will be on set up in the Hall of Fame area, as well as throughout the Complex that will provide the history of HC athletics achievements. I would recommend the special athletic event displays be set up in the McFarland Atrium, with interactive kiosks that provide information for each Varsity team. |
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 15, 2018 14:32:00 GMT -5
Not sure it's Pine's standard as I seem to recall that being said before Nate arrived. Regardless, I feel the standard has to change for 2 reasons - 5 of the 6 guys who played over a 15 year period (Kaftan, Cooz, Heinsohn, Togo, & Jack the shot) that ended almost 60 years ago plus Ronnie Perry (almost 40 years ago). The history of HC basketball is much deeper than that and the men who (and women by the way) who represent the best of that history deserve some recognition.
- I think we all recognize that the liklihood of a Holy Cross player crossing the All-American standard is very low and so you'd like the players you're recruiting today to be able to think, maybe someday ...
Not saying we have to become the Yankees or Celtics and hang the jersey of every all-star who played on a championship team, but c'mon. Maybe any all-america team (1st, 2nd, or 3rd) which only adds Ed Siudut or academic all-americans (any team) - Siudut, Chris Potter, & Jim Nairus - or PL scholar athlete of the year (Nairus) makes sense. Academic All-Americans would add a few women too (Sherry Levin, Ann Lambiotte, Kathy Courtney & Amy O’Brien). And maybe you make the first team All-Americans stand out by making them a different color or larger - or put them at one end of the gyme and the others at the other end. Lots of ways to distinguish them. We deviated from the tradition of only having banners for the 2 championship teams to having banners for any team that made the NCAA or NIT. We can modify the rules here too. And while I'm at it, can we ditch the vinyl banners (both jerseys & NCAA/NIT) and make them cloth? Loved the old felt NCAA & NIT banners. Much more classic look than the plastic. I'd settle for nylon as they hang so much better than the stiff vinyl. And when we change them, I'd suggest making the 1947 & 1954 banners purple so they stand out in the sea of other banners - again, an attempt to highlight the special place those teams have in the history of HC basketball. Monument Park in Yankee Stadium includes honors for Allie Reynolds, Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, Mel Stottlemyre and some others who were fine players but far from immortal. Perhaps they're appropriate in that the Park has different levels of honor: plaques on red granite blocks for true immortals Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, Joe D, and Miller Huggins with the other plaques placed on a wall. Still, as a lifelong Yankee fan, it seems to me that the standards are not the most stringent |
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 15, 2018 14:33:11 GMT -5
Yeah, let's not do that!
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