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Post by Tom on Dec 18, 2018 10:33:58 GMT -5
Cliff Rucker is quite impressive. He made a large amount of money in business elsewhere, is a big hockey fan, and has spent money freely, but wisely to make a positive impact in Worcester. Everybody loves the guy. Where I will give BBC's theme credence is that while HC can't reasonably compete with Cliff Rucker and the Railers, the AD should be able to get on the same wavelength with the City of Worcester and the Railers. Why? Because the City Manager was the Holy Cross Director of Governmental Affairs before becoming City Manager and was torn about leaving HC because he liked the school and the job so much, and Cliff Rucker has become a big Worcester Booster and is co-operating with and boosting the new Worcester Red Sox franchise as well as partnering with Worcester Academy and a couple of colleges in his new two rink hockey facility downtown. So, approached the right way, I suspect the City and the Railers could be boosters of Holy Cross Hockey where they could and not competitors. I'm sure the city would be big supporters of HC in Hockey East at the Centrum. More rent for the building and businesses around the building get a boost from foot traffic on all those days. I can't see how the Railers and HC in Hockey East could be anything but competitors. Sure there will be a college segment in the fanbase that won't care about AA pro's. There will be a segment that doesn't care about college. There will also be a segment of just plain old fans of good hockey without enough time to closely follow two Worcester teams. Rucker is a smart businessman and knows that HC in Hockey East would absolutely draw some fans from the Railers. With that exclusive clause in his pocket, there is no incentive for Rucker to want to be on the same wavelength as HC. All this being said, Rucker also knows that the Railers are a fledgling organization with no loyal supporters. He hopes to pick up the pi$$ed off Shark fans who supported that team for a number of years, but stayed away in droves after the announcement that the parent organization was yanking them to the west coast. Frankly, an average, recently jilted hockey fan, would likely choose a brand new Hockey East team over a brand new ECHL team. Rucker knows that and no amount of skillful politics from Nate Pine, Gordie Lockbaum, or any people-savvy AD would change that dynamic. What will change that dynamic is a little time. 18 months from now, the Railers will have 3 seasons under their belts and hopefully will have built their own fanbase. What will change is that Rucker's power in the situation will shrink, as the exclusive clause isn't eternal. In terms of the Railers, at worst they have been a postponement of HC in Hockey East, not the death. If three years from now, HC is not in HE, it will have nothing to do with the Railers. I think Pine did some things well, even if I'm not pleased with the win/loss record in the sports I care about. I do not see how he could have done anything differently with the city and Railers that would have HC in Hockey East
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Pine out?
Dec 18, 2018 10:40:20 GMT -5
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Post by joe on Dec 18, 2018 10:40:20 GMT -5
You can't just move some of the teams to D3. It is all or nothing. No I’m saying move the whole s**tshow to D3. Rucker should partner with HC, which can leverage a D1 hockey program to keep some interest in the Railers once the city hasn’t lost interest in another minor league sport.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 18, 2018 12:53:52 GMT -5
No FCS school plays football, basketball, and ice hockey in a high-level conference.
I'll define high level conference as A-10 for hoops, CAA for football, and HE for ice hockey.
No BE school plays scollie football, and only Providence plays ice hockey at any level
The two FCS schools, UNH and Maine, that compete in HE compete in AE for hoops.
So how is HC with 3,000 students going to migrate to higher level conferences across the board when there is no precedent for any other school having done so? At best, HC might pull off a Villanova or Richmond, which means no ice hockey. Or emulate Providence, and give up football.
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Post by JRGNYR on Dec 18, 2018 13:21:08 GMT -5
No FCS school plays football, basketball, and ice hockey in a high-level conference. I'll define high level conference as A-10 for hoops, CAA for football, and HE for ice hockey. No BE school plays scollie football, and only Providence plays ice hockey at any level The two FCS schools, UNH and Maine, that compete in HE compete in AE for hoops. So how is HC with 3,000 students going to migrate to higher level conferences across the board when there is no precedent for any other school having done so? At best, HC might pull off a Villanova or Richmond, which means no ice hockey. Or emulate Providence, and give up football. Hear what you're saying here, but Villanova plays scholarship football in the CAA.
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Pine out?
Dec 18, 2018 13:32:28 GMT -5
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Post by joe on Dec 18, 2018 13:32:28 GMT -5
Phreek - HC has always bucked what seems to be common sense. If you’re looking for HC to use precedent and convention as means of future planning, I think you may be missing the point. However, when a school with a student body of 2,800 tries to field a full load of D1 sports and presumably hopes to win, it will eventually have to do something that bucks historical trends, and what the guy next door does.
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Post by Tom on Dec 18, 2018 14:33:14 GMT -5
Or emulate Providence, and give up football. Minor nit-pic, but I have no recollection of Providence ever playing football. The sport they recently gave up was baseball
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Post by JRGNYR on Dec 18, 2018 14:45:20 GMT -5
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 18, 2018 15:04:14 GMT -5
No FCS school plays football, basketball, and ice hockey in a high-level conference. I'll define high level conference as A-10 for hoops, CAA for football, and HE for ice hockey. No BE school plays scollie football, and only Providence plays ice hockey at any level The two FCS schools, UNH and Maine, that compete in HE compete in AE for hoops. So how is HC with 3,000 students going to migrate to higher level conferences across the board when there is no precedent for any other school having done so? At best, HC might pull off a Villanova or Richmond, which means no ice hockey. Or emulate Providence, and give up football. Hear what you're saying here, but Villanova plays scholarship football in the CAA. Mea maxima culpa. I should have consulted Wiki rather than my clearly failing memory. For HC to financially compete with private schools in the A-10 for hoops, HC would need to spend $3.0-$3.5 million more than it does now; to compete with HE schools like Providence and Northeastern (neither of whom has to rent a rink) about $2.8 million more than it does now; for CAA football, to spend similarly to Villanova and Richmond, about $1.2 million more. That's a total of $7+ million in additional costs, little of which would be recouped by increased ticket revenue, --meaning future students and their parents would pick up the tab. Put another way, if the net additional cost was $5 million, then the cost of tuition and fees would increase by about $1700 per student. (It would actually increase more for the full pays because their tuition payments underwrite some of the cost of fin aid.) That's a very generous subsidy on their part to the sports fans of the Greater Worcester community.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 18, 2018 15:07:02 GMT -5
Or emulate Providence, and give up football. Minor nit-pic, but I have no recollection of Providence ever playing football. The sport they recently gave up was baseball Providence played football until the start of WWII. My point was HC could be like Providence and compete in a higher conference for hoops and ice hockey, at the 'cost' of dropping football.
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Post by Tom on Dec 18, 2018 15:29:43 GMT -5
Minor nit-pic, but I have no recollection of Providence ever playing football. The sport they recently gave up was baseball Providence played football until the start of WWII. My point was HC could be like Providence and compete in a higher conference for hoops and ice hockey, at the 'cost' of dropping football. The Providence model is to drop lots - including the closest thing the spring has to a major sport
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Post by alum on Dec 18, 2018 15:47:45 GMT -5
Hear what you're saying here, but Villanova plays scholarship football in the CAA. Mea maxima culpa. I should have consulted Wiki rather than my clearly failing memory. For HC to financially compete with private schools in the A-10 for hoops, HC would need to spend $3.0-$3.5 million more than it does now; to compete with HE schools like Providence and Northeastern (neither of whom has to rent a rink) about $2.8 million more than it does now; for CAA football, to spend similarly to Villanova and Richmond, about $1.2 million more. That's a total of $7+ million in additional costs, little of which would be recouped by increased ticket revenue, --meaning future students and their parents would pick up the tab.
Put another way, if the net additional cost was $5 million, then the cost of tuition and fees would increase by about $1700 per student. (It would actually increase more for the full pays because their tuition payments underwrite some of the cost of fin aid.) That's a very generous subsidy on their part to the sports fans of the Greater Worcester community. On the other hand, HC could adopt a "we will play anyone anywhere even if it means that 10 of our non conference games are on the road" attitude toward basketball. We would generate more revenue with only a modest increase in expenditures, build a national reputation, be better prepared for the conference schedule, and have happier Crossports readers while staying in the PL. As much as I like hockey, I would rather see that than Hockey East.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 18, 2018 16:00:53 GMT -5
I applaud Providence College for their combined success in basketball and hockey. However, I would not like a Holy Cross without football at Fitton Field on a sunny fall day, or baseball at Fitton Field on a sunny spring day. Cold rainy days? That's what the PLN is for.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 18, 2018 16:04:38 GMT -5
So 4 million per year more to be in the CAA/CAA or CAA/A10 (assuming either is an option for basketball) versus the PL, hockey to be status quo? I guess the question is then, how much of the 4 million would be recovered by being in those conferences?
The only thing is: where do the other sports end up? Does the 4 million include any increased costs for those sports?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 18, 2018 16:21:15 GMT -5
Do the A-10 schools make $$ from basketball game broadcasts? How about CAA? Are conference broadcast windfalls limited to the Power-5?
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Dec 18, 2018 18:24:58 GMT -5
Do the A-10 schools make $$ from basketball game broadcasts? How about CAA? Are conference broadcast windfalls limited to the Power-5? A10 inked a long-term rights deal w/ESPN this past spring. Don't know the financials but safe to say it's better than the PL. They also have league-wide deal with Learfield to sell sponsorships and produce broadcasts at all the league schools. CAA has a deal w/Stretch Internet which is prob for nothing. The real kick-back is NCAA tournament units. A10 made over 8 mil over six yrs for their conference in '18 NCAA's. PL gets under 2 mil over same time frame from Bucknell's participation. An NCAA unit (game played) was worth 273K (I think) this yr and gets paid out to league schools for 6 yrs.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 18, 2018 19:40:48 GMT -5
ACTP-- nice analysis--helps us get a better understanding of the landscape
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Pine out?
Dec 18, 2018 20:38:52 GMT -5
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Post by joe on Dec 18, 2018 20:38:52 GMT -5
Do the A-10 schools make $$ from basketball game broadcasts? How about CAA? Are conference broadcast windfalls limited to the Power-5? A10 inked a long-term rights deal w/ESPN this past spring. Don't know the financials but safe to say it's better than the PL. They also have league-wide deal with Learfield to sell sponsorships and produce broadcasts at all the league schools. CAA has a deal w/Stretch Internet which is prob for nothing. The real kick-back is NCAA tournament units. A10 made over 8 mil over six yrs for their conference in '18 NCAA's. PL gets under 2 mil over same time frame from Bucknell's participation. An NCAA unit (game played) was worth 273K (I think) this yr and gets paid out to league schools for 6 yrs. Highly insightful. ACTP - give us a succint synopsis of what the new AD needs to do.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 19, 2018 8:14:09 GMT -5
Thanks ACTP for that data. _________________________ My estimate of a net cost to HC of about $5 million to upgrade conferences in three sports factored in $2 million in increased revenue to offset some of the overall cost of $7 million.
My $2 million guesstimate of increased revenue assumed there were 35 home games for the three sports, and attendance would increase above current levels by an average of 3,000 per game, or a total attendance increase of 105,000. I priced the average ticket at $10, --cheap because of a widespread belief on this board that the present price point is way too high. That's $1 million of increased revenue. The remaining $1 million came from NCAA / conference distributions. _______________________ Examples of total expenses M/W hoops A-10 (private schools) 2016-17 Davidson $4.1M Dayton $8.9M Duquesne $6.7M Fordham $7.5M Richmond $7.0M Saint Joe's $6.8M Saint Louis $7.9M (Holy Cross $3.8M, second only to Bucknell's $4.2M among the five PL football schools.)
For M/W ice hockey in 2016-17, Providence spent $5.5M, Northeastern $4.8M. HC spent $2.2M
For CAA football, Villanova and Richmond each spent $6.7M HC spent $6.2M, but that total includes $650,000 rental cost for Yankee Stadium.
The $7 million in added cost assumed HC would spend $7.0 million on M/W hoops; $5M on M/W ice hockey, and $6.7M on football ______________________________ With respect to potential for added costs for other sports id HC joined the A-10.
Comparing costs for M/W soccer in 2016-17, private schools only. Davidson $1.0M (clearly, no or few scollies; similarly for St. Bonaventure which spends even less) Dayton $1.8M Duquesne $1.6M Fordham $2.5M GWU $2.3M La Salle $1.6M St. Joe's $1.8M St. Louis $2.2M (HC @ $1.7M would be bottom tier)
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Post by JRGNYR on Dec 19, 2018 8:37:56 GMT -5
So 4 million per year more to be in the CAA/CAA or CAA/A10 (assuming either is an option for basketball) versus the PL, hockey to be status quo? I guess the question is then, how much of the 4 million would be recovered by being in those conferences? The only thing is: where do the other sports end up? Does the 4 million include any increased costs for those sports? The other sports would likely have to end up in the same conference as basketball, unless that conference doesn't sponsor the sport. Then you can affiliate with another conference or remain independent.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 19, 2018 9:18:32 GMT -5
The underlying question is why any non Power Five school chooses to spend and lose as much on sports as they do. From the NCAA revenue and expenses report for 2016-17.
FCS Schools
Football 3 schools where generated revenues exceeded expenses by $244,000 (median value) 120 schools where expenses exceeded generated revenue by $2.4 million (median value) Median value of total expenses for 123 schools was $3.6M (HC was $6.1 million)
Men's hoops 3 schools where generated revenue exceeded expenses by $4.0M (median value) 120 schools where expenses exceeded generated revenue by $1.0 million (median value) Median value of total expenses for 123 schools was $1.5M (HC was $2.1 million)
Div I no football
Men's hoops 5 schools where generated revenue exceeded expenses by $1.7M (median value) 90 schools where expenses exceeded generated revenue by $1.6 million (median value) Median value of total expenses for 95 schools was $2.2M
M's ice hockey (median values) 9 schools Generated revenue $1.1M Expenses $2.9M
W's ice hockey (median values) 5 schools (would include BU, Northeastern, Providence) Generated revenue $26,000 Expenses $1.9M
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Pine out?
Dec 20, 2018 19:39:44 GMT -5
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Post by bfoley82 on Dec 20, 2018 19:39:44 GMT -5
Did an alumni search. Slim pickens if we want an alum but here's a name that sounds like might be a good match: Joanne Maldari '90 is listed as currently the assistant AD at UNH. She was psychology major at HC. Got masters in counseling/athletic counseling at Springfield College. She has been at UNH for over 24 years - she's obviously found a "home" there in Durham. LinkedIn has her job listed as: Associate Athletic Director, Academic Services. So, looks like she's involved in the academic side of athletics and not sure either she or Holy Cross would be mutually interested in each other. Others: Frank Mastrandrea '88 still listed as assistant AD at Holy Cross but believe he has health issues. Former classmate, Tom Lamb ex-70, '71 was AD at Natick H.S. but assume his age eliminates him A couple are ADs at high schools. I did some stuff with Joanne, she didn’t seem too interested in getting deeply involved with the administration side
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Pine out?
Dec 20, 2018 19:48:25 GMT -5
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Post by bfoley82 on Dec 20, 2018 19:48:25 GMT -5
Providence played football until the start of WWII. My point was HC could be like Providence and compete in a higher conference for hoops and ice hockey, at the 'cost' of dropping football. The Providence model is to drop lots - including the closest thing the spring has to a major sport Providence moved the money over to the lacrosse program where they hired one of Duke’s assistant coaches and have the top lacrosse facility in the Northeast.
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Post by crusader12 on Jan 7, 2019 12:45:05 GMT -5
Anyone hear if FADNP has officially left campus? Press release said sometime in January.
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Post by hc87 on Jan 7, 2019 13:08:06 GMT -5
Anyone hear if FADNP has officially left campus? Press release said sometime in January. Do you want his keys to the Luth back too??? Or is it a swipe card now??? I'm old)
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Post by Xmassader on Jan 7, 2019 13:37:25 GMT -5
Have heard that one potential candidate for the job is Kit Hughes—senior associate AD at Bowling Green. Has a pretty impressive resume from his time at NC State and BG, including playing and coaching experience in football and lacrosse and some marketing expertise.
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