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Post by bringbackcaro on Mar 2, 2019 16:41:45 GMT -5
Yet another thread driven completely off the rails of the initial topic. Sorry, Sherrif Clock Tower. Let’s continue talking about Georgetown’s football schedule! A most interesting topic.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 2, 2019 16:50:58 GMT -5
What, then, is your time limit before it becomes outrageous?
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Post by bringbackcaro on Mar 2, 2019 16:55:30 GMT -5
What, then, is your time limit before it becomes outrageous? With a search firm, 6 weeks should be more than enough time. Given that Pine left before the holidays, perhaps a little more time would be needed, but anything more than 8 weeks is ridiculous.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 2, 2019 17:00:20 GMT -5
Fair enough. If, as someone said, they are down to the final two candidates, we may hear something by the end of the winter sports season.
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Post by gks on Mar 2, 2019 17:34:45 GMT -5
So, essentially you are saying Holy Cross shot itself in the foot? Interesting but pretty sure we all know that Fr. Brooks destroyed Holy Cross athletics as it has been posted many times before here, so it must be true. The Patriot League was only icing on the cake which had already been baked. 1. I wonder what steps Holy Cross plans to take to "correct" the underfunding of sports. Another, more directed, fund-raising campaign? Taking from the general fund? If so, that is going to be robbing Peter to pay Paul. What areas will have reduced funding? 2. Couldn't care less about not changing conferences at this time. Start dominating the PL, if that's possible, and then I'll start to get antsy about changing. Being a PL bottom-feeder, which we've been for some time in almost all sports, doesn't get me wanting more. 3. As for AD, have heard from atop Mt. St. James that it may be further along than the above post and top candidates are two high-profile former HC athletes known in the Worcester community. Those are not unimpeachable sources though. Might be wishful thinking or speculation. It would address the issue/concern expressed here that an AD have a background and understanding of the Holy Cross culture and how to pick an AD who knows how to pick head coaches. At least one of these two was on the search committee that picked Chesney. Lets hope number 3 is correct.
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Post by sader1970 on Mar 2, 2019 17:56:29 GMT -5
As I've posted before, while there may be no "excuse" for Fr. Boroughs not hiring a replacement AD yet, there may be some legitimate reasons. Not in order of importance or priority:
* as was posted by another above, he has higher priority things occupying his attention (think organist, philosophy prof, student unrest and sit-ins - he's not as experienced in these things as Fr. Swords or Fr. Brooks were).
* you may be very fortunate to be working for a company or organization that has an unlimited budget. I once worked for a multi-billion dollar company that dwarfs anything like the Holy Cross budget and there were times when they delayed hiring replacements that local management thought needed to be filled ASAP yet higher ups delayed because it saved money. If HC decided to use a search firm, delaying the actual hiring will help cover those fees. This is especially true if Fr. Boroughs (note the correct spelling) feels comfortable with Brendan Sullivan and if Brendan is working for considerably less than Nate Pine's salary which is almost certainly true.
If you want a permanent AD in place because you think it'll make it easier to get rid of Carmody, I think you'd be wrong. 1. because despite the results this year, it would be a PR disaster to fire him with a year left on his contract and an ill wife and 2. if they (Fr. B) really do want to fire Carmody, Sullivan can do the job. He's been an AD elsewhere and I am sure he has the necessary experience needed to do that.
If what you really want is to get rid of Carmody, it'll probably have to wait until next year when the College will do what I expect they will do with Gibbons, quietly let his contract expire and move on.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 4, 2019 6:26:39 GMT -5
Picking up on lehighowl's post, the search firm hired to identify AD candidates apparently has been on campus the past week or so, identifying the qualities that HC wants to see in Pine's successor, and defining what are the priorities for the new AD, and athletics overall, going forward. The selection committee will include students. Once interested candidates are identified, the process of conducting interviews and choosing the vnext AD will take about two months. Some here surely will be sorely disappointed, but the college is not considering changing conferences, --nor is the college looking to reduce the number of sports offered. Apparently the college does perceive that some sports are underfunded, and will take steps to correct that. If the powers that be at Holy Cross can't figure out what qualities in the new AD by themselves without some stupid search firm they are doomed. Students should never be a part of the search process. HC has set priorities for athletics -- there are some on this board who clearly disagree with those priorities -- but they are what they are. I expect the national search firm had discussions with TPTB with respect to those priorities, whether there would be any changes in such, and if so, what the changes are. For example, if a past priority for athletics was building new facilities, that would not be a priority for the next AD. ______________________________________ With respect to students, the athletic director at HC is responsible for club sports (of which there are 20 by HC's count), intramurals, programmed exercise and fitness classes for non-athletes, cheerleaders, and the band. If there are 700+ athletes playing varsity sports, there are certainly as many, if not more, students who participate in the non-varsity sports and recreation programs. Who speaks for them in assessing whether an AD candidate has any interest in non-varsity sports and intramurals, and what changes he/she would like to bring to those programs? Students, now having returned to campus with demolition underway at their field house, are apparently not all that happy with the facilities and equipment now available to them for certain intramurals, e,g, hoops,, strength and conditioning, and exercise. And the college is examining what more can be done, particularly for the 2019-20 academic year, in response to their complaints.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Mar 4, 2019 7:50:19 GMT -5
Nope. Once again you make definitive statements that are wrong. Intramurals, club sports, Recreation and fitness all fall under Student Activities.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 4, 2019 7:54:36 GMT -5
The band is also part of student activities, although they get some funding from athletics so there is likely input from athletics on band activities.
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Post by td128 on Mar 4, 2019 8:00:46 GMT -5
Who is responsible for the overall W-L percentage?
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 4, 2019 8:16:43 GMT -5
Doesn't the responsibility for overall wins and losses fall on the players and coaches?
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Post by hcpride on Mar 4, 2019 8:56:49 GMT -5
Given our participatory athletics model I don't think overall W-L of the athletic teams is germane. We have a very high level of athletic participation (I believe it is the highest in the Patriot League), appropriate athletic facilities, and the requisite number of coaches to fully field a large number of teams. As an added measure, our graduation rate of athletes is excellent. Folks asking for consistently winning teams or Rhodes Scholars or NFL/NBA/MLS draftees or whatever don't quite grasp our participatory athletics model (and its success).
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Post by gks on Mar 4, 2019 9:50:00 GMT -5
Given our participatory athletics model I don't think overall W-L of the athletic teams is germane. We have a very high level of athletic participation (I believe it is the highest in the Patriot League), appropriate athletic facilities, and the requisite number of coaches to fully field a large number of teams. As an added measure, our graduation rate of athletes is excellent. Folks asking for consistently winning teams or Rhodes Scholars or NFL/NBA/MLS draftees or whatever don't quite grasp our participatory athletics model (and its success). That is a youth sports mentality. If that is the case for the powers that be then they need to get out of D1 immediately.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 4, 2019 10:00:31 GMT -5
Nope. Once again you make definitive statements that are wrong. Intramurals, club sports, Recreation and fitness all fall under Student Activities. In 2017-2018, HC athletics incurred $14.226 million in expenses not allocated to a varsity sport. That $14.226 million is greater than any PL school (that includes Fordham and GU) spent for this category of costs. For comparison, Colgate spent $4.726 million, $9.5 million less than HC. In all of the BE and CAA (the Dept of Ed database for these conferences includes UConn), HC was outspent by two schools: JMU at $15.657M, and UConn at $23.765M. In the ACC, BC spent $20.133M, Univ of Miami spent $29.040M, and Wake Forest spent $24.351M. In 2012-13, before Pine, spending unallocated by sport was $8.163M, 52 percent of the total amount directly spent on sports. In 2017-18, that percentage increased to 62 percent. (For comparison again, Colgate spent $3.287M in 2012-13). If some/much of this $14.226 million is being spent on club sports, intramurals, recreation etc., that would help explain the extraordinary sum. Conversely, if none of the $14.226 is being spent on such activities, the athletic department seems to be highly inefficient (to put it politely) compared to all of its peers. Where I come from, if its in your budget (or checking account) you are responsible for how that money is spent. That said, I am always willing to be enlightened on what the $14.226M was spent on.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 4, 2019 10:05:39 GMT -5
Given our participatory athletics model I don't think overall W-L of the athletic teams is germane. We have a very high level of athletic participation (I believe it is the highest in the Patriot League), appropriate athletic facilities, and the requisite number of coaches to fully field a large number of teams. As an added measure, our graduation rate of athletes is excellent. Folks asking for consistently winning teams or Rhodes Scholars or NFL/NBA/MLS draftees or whatever don't quite grasp our participatory athletics model (and its success). That is a youth sports mentality. If that is the case for the powers that be then they need to get out of D1 immediately. After analyses, HC has determined that HC athletes are more successful post-baccalaureate than graduates who were not athletes.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Mar 4, 2019 10:08:11 GMT -5
Nope. Once again you make definitive statements that are wrong. Intramurals, club sports, Recreation and fitness all fall under Student Activities. In 2017-2018, HC athletics incurred $14.226 million in expenses not allocated to a varsity sport. That $14.226 million is greater than any PL school (that includes Fordham and GU) spent for this category of costs. For comparison, Colgate spent $4.726 million, $9.5 million less than HC. In all of the BE and CAA (the Dept of Ed database for these conferences includes UConn), HC was outspent by two schools: JMU at $15.657M, and UConn at $23.765M. In the ACC, BC spent $20.133M, Univ of Miami spent $29.040M, and Wake Forest spent $24.351M. In 2012-13, before Pine, spending unallocated by sport was $8.163M, 52 percent of the total amount directly spent on sports. In 2017-18, that percentage increased to 62 percent. (For comparison again, Colgate spent $3.287M in 2012-13). If some/much of this $14.226 million is being spent on club sports, intramurals, recreation etc., that would help explain the extraordinary sum. Conversely, if none of the $14.226 is being spent on such activities, the athletic department seems to be highly inefficient (to put it politely) compared to all of its peers. Where I come from, if its in your budget (or checking account) you are responsible for how that money is spent. That said, I am always willing to be enlightened on what the $14.226M was spent on. Couldn't tell you but it isnt what you stated it was. That falls under Student Activities.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 4, 2019 10:10:47 GMT -5
In 2017-2018, HC athletics incurred $14.226 million in expenses not allocated to a varsity sport. That $14.226 million is greater than any PL school (that includes Fordham and GU) spent for this category of costs. For comparison, Colgate spent $4.726 million, $9.5 million less than HC. In all of the BE and CAA (the Dept of Ed database for these conferences includes UConn), HC was outspent by two schools: JMU at $15.657M, and UConn at $23.765M. In the ACC, BC spent $20.133M, Univ of Miami spent $29.040M, and Wake Forest spent $24.351M. In 2012-13, before Pine, spending unallocated by sport was $8.163M, 52 percent of the total amount directly spent on sports. In 2017-18, that percentage increased to 62 percent. (For comparison again, Colgate spent $3.287M in 2012-13). If some/much of this $14.226 million is being spent on club sports, intramurals, recreation etc., that would help explain the extraordinary sum. Conversely, if none of the $14.226 is being spent on such activities, the athletic department seems to be highly inefficient (to put it politely) compared to all of its peers. Where I come from, if its in your budget (or checking account) you are responsible for how that money is spent. That said, I am always willing to be enlightened on what the $14.226M was spent on. Couldn't tell you but it isnt what you stated it was. That falls under Student Activities. On this HC web site, it falls under "athletics". www.holycross.edu/athleticsand, www.holycross.edu/athletics/office-recreation-intramurals-and-club-sports
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Post by hcpride on Mar 4, 2019 10:11:10 GMT -5
That is a youth sports mentality. If that is the case for the powers that be then they need to get out of D1 immediately. After analyses, HC has determined that HC athletes are more successful post-baccalaureate than graduates who were not athletes. Another positive outcome of our participatory athletic program.
(When folks realize we are running a participatory athletics model at HC than many of our decisions (or non- decisions) make sense. Ditto for the realization that we are running a progressive/social justice model...many of our decisions make sense.)
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 4, 2019 10:17:03 GMT -5
After analyses, HC has determined that HC athletes are more successful post-baccalaureate than graduates who were not athletes. Another indication of our success within the participatory athletics model. Until I learned that not-so-little fact, I would have surmised the opposite, given the substantial time that athletes at the Division I level spend on their sports during the entire academic year. I was surprised that HC even did this analysis. And it helps, when one is doing such an analysis, that the ratio of athletes to students who are not athletes at HC is so high.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 4, 2019 10:27:35 GMT -5
After analyses, HC has determined that HC athletes are more successful post-baccalaureate than graduates who were not athletes. Another positive outcome of our participatory athletic program.
(When folks realize we are running a participatory athletics model at HC than many of our decisions (or non- decisions) make sense. Ditto for the realization that we are running a progressive/social justice model...many of our decisions make sense.)
The social justice model is dictated by the Society of Jesus. ^^^ Peter Bisson SJ web.295.ca/gondolkodo/talalkozo/irasok/BissonEN04.htmlIf Fr. B. was not adhering to the precepts and directives of the General Congregation, he ought not be the head of any Jesuit institution. I assume that the vow of obedience covers the edicts of General Congregations, with respect to mission of the Jesuits. If so then if one disagrees, one should take it up with the Superior General, not Fr. B.
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Post by gks on Mar 4, 2019 10:27:46 GMT -5
After analyses, HC has determined that HC athletes are more successful post-baccalaureate than graduates who were not athletes. Another positive outcome of our participatory athletic program.
(When folks realize we are running a participatory athletics model at HC than many of our decisions (or non- decisions) make sense. Ditto for the realization that we are running a progressive/social justice model...many of our decisions make sense.)
If this is the case...and that's HC's call...no one should ever complain about wins and losses again. No one should complain about coaching. Maybe I'm old school...thought they kept score for a reason.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 4, 2019 10:32:37 GMT -5
Another positive outcome of our participatory athletic program.
(When folks realize we are running a participatory athletics model at HC than many of our decisions (or non- decisions) make sense. Ditto for the realization that we are running a progressive/social justice model...many of our decisions make sense.)
If this is the case...and that's HC's call...no one should ever complain about wins and losses again. No one should complain about coaching. Maybe I'm old school...thought they kept score for a reason. It is not that HC doesn't care about competitiveness; it may very well be that one of the priorities of the new AD will be to increase the competitiveness of HC sports, pretty much across the board.
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Post by sader1970 on Mar 4, 2019 10:58:22 GMT -5
Phreek posted: I haven't the time right now to research this further but suspect that the "Office of Recreation, Intramurals, and Club Sports" is a division within the Athletics Department and based not only on the numbers that Phreek posted but also the link he posted: www.holycross.edu/athleticsIf you recall, 5-10 years ago, we had a discussion about "my friend" Gordon Gee, formerly head of Ohio State - sorry, " The Ohio State University" - who cut and ran to Brown University, only to cut and run to Vanderbilt University, only to cut and run back to OSU, who when he was at Vanderbilt controversially put the Athletics Department under Student Activities which was perceived as a downgrading of varsity sports. Having seen Gee first hand at OSU and Brown, my wife having met him when she worked at Brown, nothing could be further from the truth as he is BIG on athletics. My usual long story to say that I wonder if Holy Cross took Gee's idea and merged the two - Athletics and Student Activities - but flipped it so they all run through the AD. Phreek's numbers sure seem to be evidence of that and more evidence that participation rather than winning seems to be the driving force in our varsity sports.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 4, 2019 11:41:08 GMT -5
Could it be that we have a hybrid athletic strategy: try to win in the key sports while settling for participation in the minor sports?
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Post by sader1970 on Mar 4, 2019 11:57:40 GMT -5
As evidenced by the results: NO.
Not sure, but suspect I know, what you regard as "key sports."
Men's basketball - haven't had a winning record since Milan's 20-win season and that was an outlier. Women's basketball - not even close to a championship team in years. Football - no winning record in many years. Men's hockey - uh, no. Women's hockey - great against D3 competition but will be years before we are even competitive in HE. Baseball - inconsistent.
Certainly if this is the strategy, it hasn't been working. Maybe the journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step. And maybe LAC was the first step. We can only hope.
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