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Post by matunuck on Mar 10, 2019 10:25:02 GMT -5
Anyone know how much additional money would be needed annually to remain need-blind? Do wonder if this is also an effort to shake out a few other big donors who have not been as generous over the years as hoped.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 10, 2019 10:31:51 GMT -5
In 2017-18, Villanova awarded $8.3M in merit scollies as defined below.. "Institutional: Endowed scholarships, annual gifts and tuition funded grants, awarded by the college, excluding athletic aid and tuition waivers "
For the class entering Fall, 2017, 111 students awarded non-athletic merits, average award $16K. That total is significantly lower than the total for all classes, so perhaps VU bumps up the awards for those who pass freshmen year. .
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 10, 2019 10:52:13 GMT -5
Anyone know how much additional money would be needed annually to remain need-blind? Do wonder if this is also an effort to shake out a few other big donors who have not been as generous over the years as hoped. $100 million increase in the endowment would underwrite $4.5 million in additional fin aiud per year, or $1.1+ million per class. (Percentage of the endowment distributed for operations of the college is 4.5 percent). $1.1 million per class at a $50,000 award per student would provide aid for 24 students, and more students if the award per student was less.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 10, 2019 11:37:28 GMT -5
Definitely NOT the case nowadays or even in the last 10 years (Villanova offers almost zero merit aid...there are one or two named schollies), I'd put them in HC's category regarding lack of merit aid. Ditto BC. Obviously Villanova/BC in a different admissions category from HC nowadays but that is another story. Fordham does offer merit aid and they tend to land the higher academic kids (NMF/NMSF) over us . PC or Fordahm might fit your recollection. Pride Villanova is in the merit scholarship business in a big way www1.villanova.edu/villanova/admission/affordable/scholarships.htmlAlum Sort of. HC offered 3.7M (CDS) while Villanova (according to PP ) offered 8.3M so Villanova offers more. Looking per capita, HC with 3102 students and Villanova with 6558, the two schools are quite similar in their merit offerings. For practical purposes, I'd put them in the same category. Only two of the long list of named schollie programs programs you link are actually substantive (when you look at the details) *Presidential Scholarship Program: (Similar to the BC Gabelli Program for those familiar with it). 24 Full Tuition 4-year Scholarships (6 set aside for Under Represented Minorities (URMs). **Saint Augustine Scholarship: 80 at 15K per year (from the 1600-sized freshman class). Renewable for 4 years. Villanova full-cost is 70K BTW St. Martin de Porres Grant - Philadelphia Resident and must be a URM (varying number, varying $) Goizueta Foundation Scholars Fund - 2 Hispanic Students each year (varying $) Hovnanian Scholarship --Armenian Student (varying $)) Randazzo Endowed Presidential Scholarship - 1 Black Student (full cost) Villanova National Merit Scholarship - National Merit Finalist $500-$2,000 (First year only . As a reminder this is deducted from the 70K tuition freshman year so it is very, very small) Army ROTC Naval ROTC *In cold terms, The Presidential Scholar (like the BC Gabelli program) kid is being lured from the Ivies (I know a NMF valedictorian girl that turned down UPenn for it.). The 96 (of 6558) -student program accounts for over 6.0 of the 8.3 VU merit aid. 24 of these, BTW, are set aside for URMs **The Saint Augustine Scholarship applies to 320 (of 6558) and is worth 15 K (of the 70K tuition) each year. This program essentially comprises the remainder of VU merit aid. Doing the math, this means that essentially 420 students (of 6558) or 6% receive academic merit aid of one amount or another at VU. That happens to essentially match PP's data that 111 frosh (of 1600) receive merit aid...he has the average for these 111 as about 16K per. Is that being in the merit scholarship business in a big way?
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 10, 2019 12:10:57 GMT -5
I started looking at CDS data for financial aid, and then became side-tracked to a tangent on fin aid for athletes. But, looking at HC and Colgate for the class entering in the Fall, 2018, the schools are worlds apart. HC
868 enrolled 638 applied for aid
483 determined eligible and received aid 413 received need-based $36.3K average need based scollie aid $4.6K average need based self help $3.4K average need based loan +++++++++++++++++++++ Colgate
815 enrolled 313 applied for aid
247 determined eligible and received aid 247 received need-based $55.2K average need based scollie aid $3.6K average need based self help $1.1K average need based loan I'll do other schools what I have the time and the mood strikes me. But if HC moves to need-aware like Colgate, the application numbers are likely to plummet, unless 90 percent are admitted need-blind, and the last ten percent are admitted need-aware. Thank you Phreek. Your stats are always fascinating. It is eye opening that almost 400 freshman at HC and almost 600 at Colgate are paying full boat at today's prices. Many articles focus on the plight of students graduating (or not graduating) with high loan balances. Not many focus on the families that can and are willing to invest so much in a bachelors degree from a private liberal arts college.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 10, 2019 13:00:13 GMT -5
VU was definitely cited by HC person and that the school has been specifically targeting very high achieving students as one means to slowly raise overall academic profile. But like I said I never checked and haven’t thought about until this thread surfaced. I TOTALLY agree and have no doubt VU would be cited as a school that successfully raised its academic profile. As I posted above, there are 96 (24 per year) full-cost presidential scholars at Villanova. Since full-cost is about 70K per right now at Villanova that takes up the vast bulk of their total merit aid (something like 6M of 8M). It is similar to the Gabelli presidential scholarship program at BC. Those are not students who would otherwise be attending HC and are correctly described by you as very high achieving students. It is also true Villanova does offer 80 15K (renewable) academic merit schollies among the 1600 frosh. Some of those might be cross-admits with HC but I am not sure how much difference that sort of money now makes (V HC) given the current differing academic profiles (and the fact that VU is about 70K and HC is about 65K). No doubt schools that raise their academic profile tend to attract the more academic kids. I agree that academic merit aid - however stingy or not - might help raise the academic profile of some schools amongst the applicants, admits and enrollees. I certainly want HC to increase their efforts in this direction.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 11, 2019 11:08:27 GMT -5
Comparison of financial awards for selected schools. Data is for the class that entered in the fall of 2018 unless otherwise indicated. Not adjusted for cost of attendance. Merit aid for athletics excluded for those schools that offer such.
Patriot League with football
Bucknell 974 enrolled fall of 2018 567 applied for aid 408 determined eligible and received aid 353 received need-based scollie aid $32K average need based scollie aid $4.1K average need based self help $3.5K average need based loan 74 received non-athletic merit aid $18.0K average award for merit non-need based aid
Colgate 815 enrolled 313 applied for aid 247 determined eligible and received aid 247 received need-based scollie aid $55.2K average need based scollie aid $3.6K average need based self help $1.1K average need based loan 0 received non-athletic merit aid $0 average award for merit non-need based aid
HC 868 enrolled 638 applied for aid 483 determined eligible and received aid 413 received need-based scollie aid $36.3K average need based scollie aid $4.6K average need based self help $3.4K average need based loan 44 received non-athletic merit aid $15.2K average award for merit non-need based aid
(In the HC graduating class of 2018, 60 percent of the class had received a loan of any type, with the average loan amount on graduation was $25.2K)
Lafayette 733 enrolled 479 applied for aid 277 determined eligible and received aid 259 received need-based scollie aid $44.7K average need based scollie aid $4.0K average need based self help $3.4K average need based loan 23 received non-athletic merit aid $29.3K average award for merit non-need based aid
Lehigh 1275 enrolled 851 applied for aid 591 determined eligible and received aid 545 received need-based scollie aid $44.7K average need based scollie aid $5.1K average need based self help $3.4K average need based loan 40 received non-athletic merit aid $11.0K average award for merit non-need based aid
Patriot League football only plus CAA
Fordham (2017-18) 2189 enrolled in the fall of 2017 1891 applied for aid 1298 determined eligible and received aid 1252 received need-based scollie aid $28.1K average need based scollie aid $5.7K average need based self help $5.0K average need based loan 569 received non-athletic merit aid $18.5K average award for merit non-need based aid
Georgetown (2017-18) 1597 enrolled in the fall of 2017 943 applied for aid 738 determined eligible and received aid 692 received need-based scollie aid $42.9K average need based scollie aid $5.1K average need based self help $3.4K average need based loan 0 received non-athletic merit aid $0 average award for merit non-need based aid
Richmond 830 enrolled 496 applied for aid 324 determined eligible and received aid 312 received need-based scollie aid $45.3K average need based scollie aid $3.8K average need based self help $2.9K average need based loan 93 received non-athletic merit aid $30.3K average award for merit non-need based aid
Villanova (2017) 1713 enrolled in the fall of 2017 1206 applied for aid 835 determined eligible and received aid 788 received need-based scollie aid $35.3K average need based scollie aid $6.0K average need based self help $4.2K average need based loan 111 received non-athletic merit aid $15.9K average award for merit non-need based aid
NESCAC
Bowdoin 510 enrolled 309 applied for aid 258 determined eligible and received aid 258 received need-based scollie aid $48.9K average need based scollie aid $1.8K average need based self help $0 average need based loan 7 received non-athletic merit aid $1K average award for merit non-need based aid
Wesleyan 802 enrolled 346 applied for aid 327 determined eligible and received aid 319 received need-based scollie aid $50.1K average need based scollie aid $4.7K average need based self help $3.1K average need based loan 8 received non-athletic merit aid $35.1K average award for merit non-need based aid
Williams 533 enrolled 324 applied for aid 268 determined eligible and received aid 268 received need-based scollie aid $56.9K average need based scollie aid $2.9K average need based self help $2.7K average need based loan 0 received non-athletic merit aid $0 average award for merit non-need based aid
Conclusions:
HC's calculation of need differs from most of the others, only Bucknell seems to use a similar calculation. The amount of aid offered per recipient is substantially less than the others...
Over 85 percent of Fordham's entering class may be receiving either need-based or merit aid. The percentage includes athletes. Cost of attendance at Fordham for nearly all is heavily discounted.
The most competitive schools do not offer non-athletic merit aid.
Bowdoin and William seem the most egalitarian, about half the entering class of 2018 at little real cost to themselves or their family.
HC's and Villanova's non athletic merit aid amounts and the number of students receiving (as a percentage of the entering class) are fairly similar.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 11, 2019 12:22:24 GMT -5
/\ /\ That is good info PP.
A valuable eye-opener for those who believe schools calculate financial aid identically or ever similarly.
While secular Bowdoin and Williams have essentially nothing at all in common with Catholic HC (in terms of applicants) it is interesting to see their practice in need-based aid.
If I could wave a magic wand I would convert all HC loans to grants. And then adopt the scale Williams seems to use. And then convert work-study to grants as Yale does.
( A couple of posters did not realize the HC-VU merit aid practices and similarities therein. Fordham, on the other hand, is known to be fairly generous with merit aid and your data backs that up.)
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 11, 2019 14:55:54 GMT -5
If the HC website page is an indicator, HC seems stagnant to this observer. There are very few new announcements or changes on a month to month basis on the HC website. The websites of other colleges are more interesting, replete with exciting announcements and changes on a more frequent basis. Maybe, HC has nothing new to report to the public.This website is HC's face to the world and it has gotten old and irrelevant in my opinion. Just sayin'. LoveHC This is ironic, to me, in that the HC athletics website is outstanding--easy to navigate and a wealth of information
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 11, 2019 15:25:35 GMT -5
I'll preface this by saying, though there has been ample opportunity for the good at HC to be overshadowed since Dan Kim started as VP of Communications at HC April 1, 2017, it seems to me there has not been a lot of great media exposure since he started either, but you might drop a note to him at
Dan Kim Vice President, Communications dkim@holycross.edu
or on the Web specifically to
Christian R. Santillo Associate Director, College Marketing and Communications for College Web Communications csantill@holycross.edu
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 11, 2019 15:36:50 GMT -5
Just for jollies.
Harvard (for the class entering in the fall of 2017)
1662 enrolled 1077 applied for aid 918 determined eligible and received aid 918 received need-based scollie aid $53.1K average need based scollie aid $2.6K average need based self help (671 recipients) $3.7K average need based loan # 3 received non-athletic merit aid $5K average award for merit non-need based aid
# The number of those taking out a loan not given, but the graduating class of 2017 had about 300 students with loans. The loan number can be misleading. My understanding is that many/most parents take out a loan because the cost of a loan is 'cheaper' than using family financial assets with a higher rate of return.
Boston College has never publicly published a Common data Set.
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Post by princetoncrusader on Mar 11, 2019 21:04:38 GMT -5
Williams has a $2.8B endowment, which i believe is the largest of any LAC, at least according to the Bloomberg terminal. So its a lot easier to make those kind of fin aid packages with that kind of endowment. These packages for the NESCAC as a whole may explain why 3 schools were in the D3 hoops sweet 16. As for my HC friend, he was not so much bragging about the $18k aid package from Davidson but rather lamenting that his son got zero from HC.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 12, 2019 6:49:00 GMT -5
Since HC is not particularly generous v its peers with financial aid, is high cost, and offers very little in the way of academic merit aid it is in a bit of a box when it comes to attracting the middle (and upper middle) class strong-academic-kid. (Schools with larger endowments and better financial aid, or better academic reputations, or stronger merit aid, or lower sticker prices, are not quite in the same box regarding the middle/upper middle class stronger academic kids.)
It is altogether unsurprising that fiscal reality now dictates that if a full payer with pretty good grades (top 10% of high school class, for example) applies ED at HC , he/she has an excellent chance of getting in. HC ED results (even controlling for recruited athletes) support this. At some point I would imagine some sort of a 'need aware' posture in the RD pool would favor the selection of the full payer (not in every instance, of course).
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Post by alum on Mar 12, 2019 7:06:26 GMT -5
Alum Sort of. HC offered 3.7M (CDS) while Villanova (according to PP ) offered 8.3M so Villanova offers more. Looking per capita, HC with 3102 students and Villanova with 6558, the two schools are quite similar in their merit offerings. For practical purposes, I'd put them in the same category. Only two of the long list of named schollie programs programs you link are actually substantive (when you look at the details) *Presidential Scholarship Program: (Similar to the BC Gabelli Program for those familiar with it). 24 Full Tuition 4-year Scholarships (6 set aside for Under Represented Minorities (URMs). **Saint Augustine Scholarship: 80 at 15K per year (from the 1600-sized freshman class). Renewable for 4 years. Villanova full-cost is 70K BTW St. Martin de Porres Grant - Philadelphia Resident and must be a URM (varying number, varying $) Goizueta Foundation Scholars Fund - 2 Hispanic Students each year (varying $) Hovnanian Scholarship --Armenian Student (varying $)) Randazzo Endowed Presidential Scholarship - 1 Black Student (full cost) Villanova National Merit Scholarship - National Merit Finalist $500-$2,000 (First year only . As a reminder this is deducted from the 70K tuition freshman year so it is very, very small) Army ROTC Naval ROTC *In cold terms, The Presidential Scholar (like the BC Gabelli program) kid is being lured from the Ivies (I know a NMF valedictorian girl that turned down UPenn for it.). The 96 (of 6558) -student program accounts for over 6.0 of the 8.3 VU merit aid. 24 of these, BTW, are set aside for URMs **The Saint Augustine Scholarship applies to 320 (of 6558) and is worth 15 K (of the 70K tuition) each year. This program essentially comprises the remainder of VU merit aid. Doing the math, this means that essentially 420 students (of 6558) or 6% receive academic merit aid of one amount or another at VU. That happens to essentially match PP's data that 111 frosh (of 1600) receive merit aid...he has the average for these 111 as about 16K per. Is that being in the merit scholarship business in a big way?What I meant when I said that that VU is in the merit scholarship business in a big way is that they market it and use it to attract top performing students whereas HC "markets" that its merit scholarship money is quite limited. I have criticized HC Admissions in the past for not being as proactive with the mailers based upon PSAT scores as some other schools because I believe that if they could get more kids to look at the school and visit, they would often end up applying and coming. I view the use of merit money in the same way. There is no reason to discount tuition if it isn't going to lead more kids to apply. I think VU gets that and I think HC could do a better job.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 12, 2019 7:29:12 GMT -5
OK, I thought you meant VU was giving more merit money than HC. (Relative to the number of students it is about the same). What I hear from parents/kids is that schools such as BC and VU (and HC) don't give out much at all. The numbers bear that out. BC and VU's presidential scholarship programs - the bulk of merit aid at the two institutions - are known to be nearly impossible to land.
It is certainly true that HC does not land the high academic scorers - it could very well be that HC may not think it is worth the effort (outreach and $). I don't think HC is on the radar for those students at this point.
I am not sure to what extent the qualitative (and quantitative) admissions gap nowadays between HC and the other two is due to the presidential scholars program at BC and VU.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Mar 13, 2019 11:16:12 GMT -5
Alum Sort of. HC offered 3.7M (CDS) while Villanova (according to PP ) offered 8.3M so Villanova offers more. Looking per capita, HC with 3102 students and Villanova with 6558, the two schools are quite similar in their merit offerings. For practical purposes, I'd put them in the same category. Only two of the long list of named schollie programs programs you link are actually substantive (when you look at the details) *Presidential Scholarship Program: (Similar to the BC Gabelli Program for those familiar with it). 24 Full Tuition 4-year Scholarships (6 set aside for Under Represented Minorities (URMs). **Saint Augustine Scholarship: 80 at 15K per year (from the 1600-sized freshman class). Renewable for 4 years. Villanova full-cost is 70K BTW St. Martin de Porres Grant - Philadelphia Resident and must be a URM (varying number, varying $) Goizueta Foundation Scholars Fund - 2 Hispanic Students each year (varying $) Hovnanian Scholarship --Armenian Student (varying $)) Randazzo Endowed Presidential Scholarship - 1 Black Student (full cost) Villanova National Merit Scholarship - National Merit Finalist $500-$2,000 (First year only . As a reminder this is deducted from the 70K tuition freshman year so it is very, very small) Army ROTC Naval ROTC *In cold terms, The Presidential Scholar (like the BC Gabelli program) kid is being lured from the Ivies (I know a NMF valedictorian girl that turned down UPenn for it.). The 96 (of 6558) -student program accounts for over 6.0 of the 8.3 VU merit aid. 24 of these, BTW, are set aside for URMs **The Saint Augustine Scholarship applies to 320 (of 6558) and is worth 15 K (of the 70K tuition) each year. This program essentially comprises the remainder of VU merit aid. Doing the math, this means that essentially 420 students (of 6558) or 6% receive academic merit aid of one amount or another at VU. That happens to essentially match PP's data that 111 frosh (of 1600) receive merit aid...he has the average for these 111 as about 16K per. Is that being in the merit scholarship business in a big way?What I meant when I said that that VU is in the merit scholarship business in a big way is that they market it and use it to attract top performing students whereas HC "markets" that its merit scholarship money is quite limited. I have criticized HC Admissions in the past for not being as proactive with the mailers based upon PSAT scores as some other schools because I believe that if they could get more kids to look at the school and visit, they would often end up applying and coming. I view the use of merit money in the same way. There is no reason to discount tuition if it isn't going to lead more kids to apply. I think VU gets that and I think HC could do a better job. At the end of the day a school like Villanova has very little interest in a smart very poor kid. They would rather buy a smartish wealthy kid with $15,000 a year than fund the whole cost for a really really smart kid.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 13, 2019 14:10:19 GMT -5
No doubt there are fiscal realities at schools. Some, like VU and BC, fully-fund some full-cost presidential scholarships to bring in some 'really really smart kids' (poor, wealthy, and in between) that might otherwise attend elsewhere.
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Post by Sader Fan on Mar 15, 2019 6:50:21 GMT -5
I would rather see more merit-based aid then need-based aid. Then we could go after the smart kids no matter what their economic status is. I have a middle class friend whose high achieving son really wanted to attend HC (I wrote his recommendation and he was accepted) but he got no financial aid. He is a freshman at Northeastern where he got a generous package. Had HC offered a comparable package he would be on Mount St. James. I know of many other similar stories - my own daughter was offered huge packages from Stonehill, St A’s and other schools and almost nothing from HC. I sent her to HC (due to her wishes and my pro-HC bias) but I was very tempted by the other offers. We are losing a lot of talent to smart schools awarding merit-based aid.
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Post by alum on Mar 15, 2019 7:44:50 GMT -5
I would rather see more merit-based aid then need-based aid. Then we could go after the smart kids no matter what their economic status is. I have a middle class friend whose high achieving son really wanted to attend HC (I wrote his recommendation and he was accepted) but he got no financial aid. He is a freshman at Northeastern where he got a generous package. Had HC offered a comparable package he would be on Mount St. James. I know of many other similar stories - my own daughter was offered huge packages from Stonehill, St A’s and other schools and almost nothing from HC. I sent her to HC (due to her wishes and my pro-HC bias) but I was very tempted by the other offers. We are losing a lot of talent to smart schools awarding merit-based aid. I have no problem with a small amount of merit based money used to attract very excellent applicants and get them through the door after they are accepted, however, need based aid meeting 100% of the difference between the total cost of attendance and the family contribution is a great equalizer in a country with growing income inequality. I think that it has to be the main focus.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 15, 2019 9:09:17 GMT -5
It is an eye-opener when one sees various financial aid packages from various schools for the same prospective student. It would be nice if all schools were equally generous in calculating 'need' since the phrase "100 percent of demonstrated need" can ring a bit hollow when the demonstrated need can vary from school to school. As I have noted before, the calculation at HC may not be as generous as at other schools (which means, again, verbiage about meeting demonstrated need is not as meaningful as it might sound )...and when part of that meeting 100% of 'demonstrated need' includes loans (as it does at HC and at many - -but not all - other schools) my concerns about student debt kicks in.
As far as the future holds (the topic of the thread), fiscal realities may warrant selection of a full payer over a high 'demonstrated need' here and there (one way to opaquely make that choice is via very high utilization of ED as we may already be doing).
As far as merit academic aid goes, if HC want to build a well-rounded student body by attracting the brightest that may be necessary here and there. The strongest academic kids (NMSF/NMF) have many options (as do the better athletes) and they are not heading to HC nowadays. IMHO we don't have a reputation as a strong academic school anymore (more of a good progressive Catholic liberal arts college that plays D1 sports)..so we are not on the radar of the strong academic kids who are considering Catholic schools.
Sader Fan and princetoncrusader tell a story I have seen more than once. When a school with a stronger academic reputation offers merit aid to a kid who gets no merit aid at HC ...do the math as to what happens.
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Post by Sader Fan on Mar 16, 2019 7:41:02 GMT -5
I was actually pointing out HC is losing top talent to schools with weaker or similar academic reputations.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 16, 2019 11:56:13 GMT -5
/\ /\ Understand. I was specifically thinking the princetoncrusader Davidson reference (generally thought to be superior to HC, IMHO) and your reference to Northeastern (ditto, IMHO ). No doubt schools with weaker and similar reputations do draw kids from HC via merit aid (my point was it happens with 'better' schools too).
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 16, 2019 15:30:01 GMT -5
I have a niece, an HC legacy applicant who was accepted at HC a decade ago but given almost nothing in financial aid and thus was drawn away by another Catholic College, considered slightly less selective, by generous merit financial aid. Everything worked out well and no one is disappointed, just happy with what did happen.
I made the assumption that HC was reserving it's merit aid for students who would upgrade it's academic standing, not keep it roughly the same and the other college was doing likewise.
The other college also calculated need higher than HC did, which I thought was closer to reality and made me think the "need blind" concept at HC was a bit flexible.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 16, 2019 17:53:18 GMT -5
My older daughter applied to HC and we did not apply for financial aid. She also applied to Saint Louis University which has a scale for merit awards, e.g. get a 3.8 GPA and a 30 ACT and get $20,000; get a 3.6 and a 28 and get $14,000– you get the idea. I did not want her to try to save Dad some $$$$ so I did not tell her about the SLU offer. She chose HC, loved it, and now has her doctorate. Second daughter chose Tulane over HC and got merit $$$ but that did not enter into her decision. I think there are a lot of schools that offer such merit aid—-helps boost their ACT or SAT averages
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Post by hcpride on Mar 16, 2019 18:32:22 GMT -5
Pride. Not to disagree with you but how do you know, other than in some limited anecdotal way, that HC does not have the reputation of being a strong academic school anymore? FWIW I believe that HC was ranked #35 (in a tie with Bucknell) among the National Lib. Arts Coll. in the USNWR which is around the same if slightly lower than in the past and certainly is a high ranking. And, HC seems to score highly in other ratings. I am curious. LoveHC Without going on and on - and not to say this is the be all end all - but I'll note the two schools I referenced were Davidson (not too well known up in New England, currently ranked #10 in National Liberal Arts Colleges USN&WR) and Northeastern (currently ranked #44 in National Universities, just behind Boston University/Case Western University USN&WR). Yes, we are 'around the same if slightly lower than in the past' in USN&WR. (Some schools are at the same level or higher than they have been in the past...and some of them are current/past competitor schools). We were once in the low 20's (different schools/different methodologies). Very recently (going backwards) we've been T-35 (this year), T-33rd (last year), T-33rd, 32, 34, 32. If you have a pal with user access (even parent/student access provides some eye-opening scatterplot info depending on high school size) to Naviance you might see some 10-year trends amongst the applicants/accepted students (no student names, of course) not available to the casual observer.
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