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Post by efg72 on Mar 10, 2019 17:04:29 GMT -5
A disappointing result in league play might be a bit understated, but I am sure few would disagree.
you can look at a wide range of issues and say that is the reason why-based on posts throughout the season
lack of offensive rebounding
1-3-1 defense
lack of physical strength
giving up too many second and third chances
Poor defensive rotations
missed lay-ups
being committed to a system/style of play
inconsistent shooting from the perimeter
lack of penetration
passing
movement off the ball
Not developing freshman
and pick a host of other options
I say a fixable difference for the team is getting to the foul line and making foul shots
looking at point differentials that wins a number of games we lost, changes the way games are played in the last five minutes etc
if that worked out the right way we might still be playing
closer to success my friends if we fix a few things-never as good as we want but never as bad as we might think
welcome other thoughts
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Post by WorcesterGray on Mar 10, 2019 17:50:03 GMT -5
A disappointing result in league play might be a bit understated, but I am sure few would disagree. you can look at a wide range of issues and say that is the reason why-based on posts throughout the season lack of offensive and defensive rebounding . . . Fixed it for you.
As has been mentioned many times, the rebounding problem is at both ends of the court, and is actually most egregious at the defensive end, where it has no strategic value and gives opponents multiple opportunities for second-chance scores. Failure to rebound adequately at the offensive and defensive ends has been a characteristic of most of Carmody's teams at Northwestern and Holy Cross.
"Total rebounding percentage" measures the percentage of all available rebounds that a team gets - a good metric to describe the sum of a team's rebounding success at both ends of the court. For the 2018-19 season, Holy Cross got 43.5% of all available rebounds - the worst performance (353rd) in all of Division 1. Holy Cross was also the worst rebounding team in the country in 2016-17, ranking 342nd, on average, during Carmody's tenure..
In 2017-18, Holy Cross got 69.3% of the available rebounds at the defensive end (313th), the second worst performance in program history. The worst occurred in 2016-17 when HC got 69% (312th), ranking 274th, on average, during Carmody's years here.
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Post by efg72 on Mar 10, 2019 18:04:12 GMT -5
Didn’t say it fixes things but if we would have gotten to the line and made more foul shots we win a number of other games and are in a better end of the season position
Naturally the other problems need to be addressed
The stats you raise are important and a metric for success, but real world data and evidence for the 2018-19 season suggests if we make fouls shots we win enough games to be a top 4 team in the league and the status of the team just might be different
To start with these games would have been Ws if we made foul shots/got to the line
Lafayette
Navy
Loyola
Lehigh
Colgate
If
If and buts we’re candy and nuts oh what a party we would have
With all that said we are closer than we think but still have so much to deal with. And yes there are still major improvements to be made in basketball and the other sports.
To paraphrase CS Lewis we cant change the beginning but we can impact the ending
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Post by WorcesterGray on Mar 10, 2019 18:17:59 GMT -5
I believe it was William Shakespeare who once said, "Teams that playeth not defense, and reboundeth with abomination, winneth not."
Unfortunately, for your narrow argument, in addition to not rebounding and not playing defense, Carmody's teams at Northwestern and Holy Cross have often been among the worst teams in the country at getting to the line. At Holy Cross, in fact, the team's free throw rate (FTR) has gotten progressively worse each season. As he fills the roster with his kind of players, we get to the line less and less. Hmmm.
Holy Cross FTR (FTA/FGA), Rank
15-16. 36.1% (188th) 16-17. 34.4% (204th) 17-18. 29.7% (284th) 18-19. 23.1% (348th)
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Post by efg72 on Mar 10, 2019 18:20:47 GMT -5
You are looking at the health of the program and a body of results over time. I am addressing the results of one season, the one just completed, and what identifiable gap would have delivered more wins
At 21 wins is this same conversation being had ?
Doubt it
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 10, 2019 18:32:08 GMT -5
You think that just making a few more free throws was the main reason we were 6-12 in the conference?
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Post by WorcesterGray on Mar 10, 2019 18:43:45 GMT -5
You are looking at the health of the program and a body of results over time. I am addressing the results of one season, the one just completed, and what identifiable gap would have delivered more wins If we had rebounded better, we would have won more games. If, for the hell of it, we defended an open three in the corner once in a while, we might have won more games. And, yes, if we got to the line more, we might have won more.
What you apparently aren't willing to consider is the possibility that not rebounding, not defending well, and not getting to the line are the results of this coach's approach to the game, results which that approach has produced year after year. When the same things happen over and over again, it's likely not about one season, or particular players - it's probably about the system.
And to get different results, maybe - just maybe - a different system is what's needed.
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Post by efg72 on Mar 10, 2019 18:49:31 GMT -5
Rebounding May or may not have led to points
Made foul shots are real points that can be counted
No disagreement about other pieces and possible impact but the reality is you can’t measure rebounds and count those as points on the board
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Post by hchoops on Mar 10, 2019 18:55:03 GMT -5
What can be measured are points off offensive rebounds
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Post by efg72 on Mar 10, 2019 19:09:00 GMT -5
You think that just making a few more free throws was the main reason we were 6-12 in the conference? Look at the scores of those games I highlighted and the number Of missed free throws or lack of attempts When I do I see Ws that became Ls |
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Post by efg72 on Mar 10, 2019 19:22:32 GMT -5
Don’t disagree with the importance of rebounding and the other pieces that have been raised
Offensive rebounds for us and the opponent are critical but with all of the threes being taken are they long rebounds that allow possessions to continue but with no guarantee of points or are they put backs that Copeland had against Bucknell and Benzan, Butler and Grandison had during the season. Those count as real points the others are opportunities to score
In the end I am trying to say that regardless of the system, style of play and talent if we made foul shots at a higher percentage or got to the line like most of our opponents those 5 games were wins and we are 11-7 going into the PLT
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 10, 2019 19:29:49 GMT -5
You think that just making a few more free throws was the main reason we were 6-12 in the conference? Look at the scores of those games I highlighted and the number Of missed free throws or lack of attempts When I do I see Ws that became Ls Forgive me for being rude, but all of your other “analysis” goes out the window if this is your thought process. |
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Post by efg72 on Mar 10, 2019 19:38:21 GMT -5
Not being rude
No analysis done on my part but simplifying one aspect of the problem -missed and made free throws—
Had we made those free throws we win those 5 games
The rest of the areas are worthy of a more robust conversation
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 10, 2019 19:45:01 GMT -5
Had we made those free throws we win those 5 games It doesn’t work like that. |
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Post by efg72 on Mar 10, 2019 20:12:49 GMT -5
At the end of the game you look at the stat sheet
rebounds matter
Shooting percentages matter along with shot selection
Turnovers matter
Free throws matter
Assists are valued
Fouls are examined and how they impacted flow
Possessions matter especially in the PL where many become life and death
Then you breakdown film
Free throws missed are points given away and shooting 67% for a year when the opposition is above 73% suggests we gave away a ton of free points
So while you are correct and my narrow view of this might be flawed it offers a perspective to say while we have many issues that prevent us from being a top team, we weren’t that far off from having a different outcome this year.
Players can improve in this area during the offseason and impact the team results moving forward, regardless of the offensive and defensive approach. While I hope other adjustments in style take place, I realize hope is not a strategy ,but hard work and execution can make a difference
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Post by hc87 on Mar 10, 2019 21:00:25 GMT -5
We really weren't that far away this year....yes, I know we finished dead last in the PL but we also beat and nearly beat the #1 and #2 teams in the league this year. Our style of offensive play doesn't lend itself to getting to the line often imo...lot of back-cuts and/or freeing up looks for 3's...not many straight line drives to the hole etc....the one guy who did do this, JF, is a bad FT shootah of course  There's no real hard&true answer/solution imo...I agree with others that both are O&D need to be at least tweaked or ultimately revamped...so maybe start there...but again, on many nights we were already as good or nearly as good as any other team in the PL this year. |
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Post by crosspride on Mar 10, 2019 22:46:41 GMT -5
At the end of the game you look at the stat sheet rebounds matter Shooting percentages matter along with shot selection Turnovers matter Free throws matter Assists are valued Fouls are examined and how they impacted flow Possessions matter especially in the PL where many become life and death Then you breakdown film Free throws missed are points given away and shooting 67% for a year when the opposition is above 73% suggests we gave away a ton of free points So while you are correct and my narrow view of this might be flawed it offers a perspective to say while we have many issues that prevent us from being a top team, we weren’t that far off from having a different outcome this year. Players can improve in this area during the offseason and impact the team results moving forward, regardless of the offensive and defensive approach. While I hope other adjustments in style take place, I realize hope is not a strategy ,but hard work and execution can make a difference If we improved to that 73% opponent average, based on the number of FTA we averaged per game, that would result in <1 additional point per game on average. I don’t believe FT % is one of the biggest problems. |
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Post by possum on Mar 11, 2019 6:06:00 GMT -5
We only took 60 less free throws than our opponents, less than 2 per game, the problem was the guy who took 30% of our free throws was less than a 50% shooter. Of bigger concern going into next year is who will get to the line to get the opportunities Floyd created.
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Post by efg72 on Mar 11, 2019 6:33:01 GMT -5
Never suggested it was the problem, but an area that can be improved regardless of all the bigger issues and lead to positive outcomes
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 11, 2019 8:58:27 GMT -5
Here's a real anomaly---despite the fact that we were outrebounded by 274 we still had 29 more field goal attempts than our opponents. Part of the explanation is our great advantage of 129 fewer turnovers, but I still find the discrepancy puzzling....
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Post by timholycross on Mar 11, 2019 8:58:33 GMT -5
My two cents: More offensive rebounds lead to more shot attempts. More shot attempts lead to more made baskets and/or more free throw attempts (as most of the shot attempts after offensive rebounds are putbacks in close).
IMHO philosophy helps with those things, but talent helps more. You'll notice, for example, the offensive rebounding seemed to pick up a wee bit with Copeland in there and Benzan (no fault of his he's 5-10 and can't jump that well) not.
Now down the other end, as HC87 says, the defense needs to be tweaked. I'd say in that area, talent helps but philosophy helps more. To me, the most frustrating thing about watching this particular team was that they (staff and players) just never seemed to get it defensively.
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letsgohc
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 80 
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Post by letsgohc on Mar 11, 2019 9:49:00 GMT -5
My two cents: More offensive rebounds lead to more shot attempts. More shot attempts lead to more made baskets and/or more free throw attempts (as most of the shot attempts after offensive rebounds are putbacks in close). IMHO philosophy helps with those things, but talent helps more. You'll notice, for example, the offensive rebounding seemed to pick up a wee bit with Copeland in there and Benzan (no fault of his he's 5-10 and can't jump that well) not. Now down the other end, as HC87 says, the defense needs to be tweaked. I'd say in that area, talent helps but philosophy helps more. To me, the most frustrating thing about watching this particular team was that they (staff and players) just never seemed to get it defensively. Then why not play Verbeek, bet you given a chance to compete, he would grab more rebounds than Copeland because he is taller. The team didnt rebound better all because of Benzan. Heard he was also on the grassy knoll. But rebounding isnt about jumping. Its about boxing out and fighting for rebounds. Basketball fundamentals. I wouldn't be surprised if the team practiced defense at the very minimum. Lets hope a new coach, at the very least, a new assistant, actually coaches defense. Defense wins Championships! |
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Post by Ignutz on Mar 11, 2019 10:01:03 GMT -5
I recall a coach - WAY back in junior high school, stressing the importance of defense, saying, "If we score, we might win. If they don't score, they can't win." |
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