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Post by longsuffering on May 18, 2019 11:33:10 GMT -5
If we would have had to give up football and hockey to join the BE, I am glad we didn't. I doubt hockey cost much back then - probably no scholarships, a coach who had a fulltime job as a high school teacher, and many local NE opponents like St. Anselms.
If HC had given up hockey to join the BE, it would be very unlikely we would have a formed a women-only hockey program. So if the trade off was BE basketball in exchange for FB, M&W hockey and PL basketball, that choice had risks, too. Because BE basketball was an unknown at the time, the outrage over dropping FB would have roiled the college community. I might have grabbed a pitchfork and marched up Linden Lane. And who wants to drive to Assumption, WPI, WSU, Becker, Anna Maria or Nichols to see a college football game? Who wants to stop and start FB and jump around between divisions like VU and GU? So, praise to whoever decided not to cut FB and hockey.
But the other side of the coin was how did BC manage to afford BE BB and FBS Football and Big time Hockey? Did they have a more secure endowment or just more tuitions to spread the costs over or just bigger er, ah, basketballs?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 18, 2019 12:46:29 GMT -5
I always thought it was telling that Syracuse, which in 2017-18 had a 'profit' of $33 million from football and men's basketball, never started a men's ice hockey program. That SU 'profit' almost equals what HG spent, in total, on athletics.
And I always thought it was telling that Notre Dame, which in 2017-18 had a 'profit' of $60 million from football and men's basketball, maintains women's ice hockey as a club sport. And Notre Dame has an on-campus rink.that seats 5,000.
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 18, 2019 14:57:09 GMT -5
I have an overwhelming sense that residents of Greater Worcester who yearn for HC being a member of the BE would also be unlikely to spend the $$$$ to attend Big East member HC's games at the DCU.. For 2019-20, the Georgetown season ticket price for a single mid court seat runs between $1200 and $2200, the higher priced being closer to the court. Having once had two seats row 10, midcourt at Capital One Arena, it cost me around $500 a seat. An upper deck midcourt seat could be had for under $200. Notwithstanding, any claim that greater Worcester could not support major college basketball is less about Worcester and more about rationalizing Rev. Brooks ' combination of hubris and lack of foresight in what it did to the visibility of the College, consigning it to the lesser lights of American and Lafayette. Even the last place team in the Big East is more visible nationally than two-thirds of the A-10 and all of the Patriot. One thought: if the city of Providence can support Big East basketball, a competitive team in Worcester certainly could have done so.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 18, 2019 16:48:41 GMT -5
I thought that the BC Hockey Program turned a profit annually, no? LoveHC IIRC, no. The East Coast school that appears to turn a profit, partly because the program is heavily endowed by a very generous benefactor who built the rink, is Penn State. No East Coast school, other than PSU, was in the top 10 in attendance in 2018-19. BC averaged 4399; BostU averaged 3830.. Other than PSU, all East Coast schools averaged less than 5,000. .
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 18, 2019 17:32:07 GMT -5
I have an overwhelming sense that residents of Greater Worcester who yearn for HC being a member of the BE would also be unlikely to spend the $$$$ to attend Big East member HC's games at the DCU.. For 2019-20, the Georgetown season ticket price for a single mid court seat runs between $1200 and $2200, the higher priced being closer to the court. Having once had two seats row 10, midcourt at Capital One Arena, it cost me around $500 a seat. An upper deck midcourt seat could be had for under $200. Notwithstanding, any claim that greater Worcester could not support major college basketball is less about Worcester and more about rationalizing Rev. Brooks ' combination of hubris and lack of foresight in what it did to the visibility of the College, consigning it to the lesser lights of American and Lafayette. Even the last place team in the Big East is more visible nationally than two-thirds of the A-10 and all of the Patriot. One thought: if the city of Providence can support Big East basketball, a competitive team in Worcester certainly could have done so. As HC87 has pointed out, Providence's support of basketball is a multi-generational thing, its part of the community's sports culture. In 1978, earliest year for team attendance stats. / 1988=89 / 2018-19 Providence 9168 / 10006 / 9547 URI 4971 / 5558 / 6216 UMass 4430 / 2649 / 2994 HC 3891 / 1507 / 1641 Northeastern 2943 / 1580 / 1142 BC 2567 / 4776 / 5160 BostU 522 / 1671 / 694 i BC's 1988 attendance, when a member of the BE, was about 800 more than HC's attendance in the peak years of the late 1970s. The thought is the a reason that Providence and URI do well, is that they are outside the Boston media market.
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Post by sader1970 on May 18, 2019 20:24:04 GMT -5
Exactly.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 18, 2019 20:44:06 GMT -5
I have an overwhelming sense that residents of Greater Worcester who yearn for HC being a member of the BE would also be unlikely to spend the $$$$ to attend Big East member HC's games at the DCU.. For 2019-20, the Georgetown season ticket price for a single mid court seat runs between $1200 and $2200, the higher priced being closer to the court. Having once had two seats row 10, midcourt at Capital One Arena, it cost me around $500 a seat. An upper deck midcourt seat could be had for under $200. Notwithstanding, any claim that greater Worcester could not support major college basketball is less about Worcester and more about rationalizing Rev. Brooks ' combination of hubris and lack of foresight in what it did to the visibility of the College, consigning it to the lesser lights of American and Lafayette. Even the last place team in the Big East is more visible nationally than two-thirds of the A-10 and all of the Patriot. One thought: if the city of Providence can support Big East basketball, a competitive team in Worcester certainly could have done so.Not a sound thought, however. Providence's advantages over Worcester are enormous--there's really no comparison.
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Post by Xmassader on May 18, 2019 21:28:53 GMT -5
Wonder what % of capacity each of the 1978 (pre Big East) figures represents. I suspect that, in HC’s case, the percentage is 95+. Had the Centrum been available then during the Potter-Vicens-Perry era, the raw #s would have exceeded 3,891/game, probably approaching 80% of Providence’s average during that period, if not more. The recent showing of Purple Reign points out how we have managed to squander our hoops legacy with the rejection of two Big East opportunities as the major reason for the decline. Possum had it right about the “equal footing” at the time the Big East was formed—ahead of BC, UConn and Seton Hall, about equal with Providence and slightly behind Georgetown, St. John’s and Syracuse. Unrealistic to assume we would have become the league doormat as soon as the league was formed. As a matter of curiosity, I’ll frequently tell people that HC has played UConn in hoops 68 times and ask them how many they think HC has won. I’ll get answers of 10, 15, 20 (at the most)—-nothing anywhere close to the 44 it actually is. If those answers don’t highlight our squandered legacy, I don’t know what does. Perhaps our President at the time would have made the same BE decision if he had to do it all over again. And there would be many among us (with both foresight and hindsight) to say once again that it was a major mistake resulting in a precipitous athletic decline and a comparative academic decline vis-a-vis most of the BE original members.
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Post by sader1970 on May 19, 2019 6:09:53 GMT -5
Care to elaborate?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 19, 2019 7:34:00 GMT -5
Sure—-we’ve reviewed them many times. Key difference is that Providence is its own media market with multiple tv stations including the major networks. Worcester is part of Boston market. HC is never the top story when the tv news broadcasts watched by 95% of the people in Worcester area cover sports. The lead story will be the Boston pro teams. What market share does the Worcester TV station have? I’ll guess well under 5%. In contrast, I’ll bet that in Providence PC sports are frequently the lead story in sports—Providence residents likely hear about PC sports 20X what Worcester residents hear about HC sports.
Worcester folks might well support a higher profile HC team, but the subject here was Providence’s advantages over Worcester so that’s what I answered
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Post by gks on May 19, 2019 8:17:06 GMT -5
Having once had two seats row 10, midcourt at Capital One Arena, it cost me around $500 a seat. An upper deck midcourt seat could be had for under $200. Notwithstanding, any claim that greater Worcester could not support major college basketball is less about Worcester and more about rationalizing Rev. Brooks ' combination of hubris and lack of foresight in what it did to the visibility of the College, consigning it to the lesser lights of American and Lafayette. Even the last place team in the Big East is more visible nationally than two-thirds of the A-10 and all of the Patriot. One thought: if the city of Providence can support Big East basketball, a competitive team in Worcester certainly could have done so. As HC87 has pointed out, Providence's support of basketball is a multi-generational thing, its part of the community's sports culture.
In 1978, earliest year for team attendance stats. / 1988=89 / 2018-19 Providence 9168 / 10006 / 9547 URI 4971 / 5558 / 6216 UMass 4430 / 2649 / 2994 HC 3891 / 1507 / 1641 Northeastern 2943 / 1580 / 1142 BC 2567 / 4776 / 5160 BostU 522 / 1671 / 694 i BC's 1988 attendance, when a member of the BE, was about 800 more than HC's attendance in the peak years of the late 1970s. The thought is the a reason that Providence and URI do well, is that they are outside the Boston media market. So wasn't Holy Cross' support. The college threw it away... Stop the excuse making. HC's athletic situation is of it's own making, no one elses.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 19, 2019 8:27:45 GMT -5
IIRC, no. The East Coast school that appears to turn a profit, partly because the program is heavily endowed by a very generous benefactor who built the rink, is Penn State. No East Coast school, other than PSU, was in the top 10 in attendance in 2018-19. BC averaged 4399; BostU averaged 3830.. Other than PSU, all East Coast schools averaged less than 5,000. . Thank you. Here is revenue / expenses in thousands of dollars for men's ice hockey for some Div I (all sports) schools. There are 38 such schools in the database, HC is one such school.. (IIRC, 60 schools in total play men's ice hockey.) There are 347 schools in all of Div I. BC 2702 / 4303 BU lost Michigan State 3423 / 4009 Northeastern lost Ohio State 1043 / 3542 PSU 4370 / 3715 Providence lost UConn lost UMass lost UMass Lowell lost UMichigan 3184 / 4515 UMinn 5209 / 4291 Univ of North Dakota 5703 / 4392 Notre Dame 2314 / 5404 Wisconsin 6271 / 7081 Where I wrote 'lost', I know the school lost money (expenses exceeded revenue) but I can't tell from the database, how much money the school lost. In such instances, the school covered the shortfall by using general funds which is considered 'revenue'. And it is no accident that nearly every school that breaks out actual revenue versus expenses is a Power Five school with beaucoup football profit; i.e., football revenue is underwriting the ice hockey program. (University of North Dakota 'lost' money on football and men's basketball.)
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 19, 2019 9:09:16 GMT -5
As I understand it, HC's home court during the 'glory years' was the Boston Garden. As the glory years faded, HC switched to the Worcester Auditorium. And on the old board, there were attempts made to calculate attendance, with the conclusion being that Auditorium held about 3,000 max. If 500 of those in attendance were students, that meant Worcester's support was never more than 2,500 fans a game. (IIRC, one poster here actually went to the Worcester Public Library and looked up the old attendance figures.)
After the Hart Center was built, attendance peaked at around 4,000 in the late 1970s. Assuming 1,000 of the 4,000 were students. the other 3,000 in attendance were Worcester fans, which is an indice of the potential level of fan support. And at that time, there likely weren't more than 5,000 HC alums living in Greater Worcester. So not a big local, alumni base from which to draw..
Construction of the Centrum (DCU Center) began in 1977. The Hart was already built, with a capacity of 4,000. Why would the city of Worcester think that HC would move from an on-campus arena it had just opened to the Centrum because the Centrum would seat 3x as many? And to use the Hart as a 4,000 seat venue for women's basketball only?
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Post by CHC8485 on May 19, 2019 9:24:44 GMT -5
Always wanted to head to the Worcester Public Library to look it up historic attendance Phreek, but haven’t made it yet. The bright side of a recent reorganization at my now former employer is that I may be afforded the opportunity to do so in the next few weeks.
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Post by sader1970 on May 19, 2019 9:34:46 GMT -5
You did. Thanks for your response. My reading comprehension perhaps has deteriorated. The relative size of the two cities is almost identical and having lived in the Providence "metro" area (I laugh, being from the NYC metro area - even "Boston metro" makes me laugh) for 20 years; ancestral roots in Worcester; the Worcester support for a Crusader "Big East" team would be at least comparable, if not better, than PCs in Providence. Can't prove it, it's a gut thing. As to Phreek's stats on HC alums in Worcester/Worcester county, there are a lot of folks who didn't go to HC but are related to someone who did and, going back to the fateful Brooks' decision, the good will of the locals would have been built on a foundation of past glories. At minimum, the HC-BC traditions would have continued and while Worcester may not have their own TV stations, people at the time still had interests in the premiere Jesuit rivalry in the country. Heck, maybe BC would never have gone to the ACC.
All that said, the decision may or may not have been in the best interest of Holy Cross in the long run. The bottom line is, you cannot change history. The decision was made decades ago. Time to look forward, not backwards.
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Post by gks on May 19, 2019 11:31:50 GMT -5
Flip flop Holy Cross' Big East choice with Providence and visa versa. Think the Friars would be rocking the Providence Civic Center?
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Post by sader1970 on May 19, 2019 13:34:42 GMT -5
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Post by rgs318 on May 19, 2019 14:42:10 GMT -5
...perhaps not Boston.
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Post by longsuffering on May 19, 2019 17:02:27 GMT -5
If the new AD hires a new BB HC in a year who has a similar trajectory as Coach Chesney, can't HC rock Some venue in BB? If HC had Gonzaga's coach and recent success, would we still be complaining about our second tier league holding us back? Of course we would, but we'd be rocking some joint in Worcester.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 19, 2019 19:53:09 GMT -5
Holy Cross attendance at Centrum / DCU
The Worcester Centrum opened Sept 1982, That year, HC hosted the first and last Worcester County Classic .Doubleheader games each day, other teams were Davidson, GWU, Iona. Attendance was 6199 on 12/29, 7125 on Dec 30. Over Christmas break, so few students.
Centrum/DCU Games against BE, ACC opponents, and UMass. 1/26/83 UMaryland 6463 2/12/83 BC 9100 1/6/84 Notre Dame 10,234 12/184 Holy Cross Invitational Rice played HC, Seton Hall played Brown. Attendance on 12/1 was 3101. 12/20/84 Marquette 1800 12/11/93 UMass 8801 12/2 94 BC 5800 12/7/99 BC 3484 11/25/2000 UMass 3821 12/1/2002 BC 3620 1/17/2006 BC 5524 12/5/2009 UMass 2028 11/18/2011 BC 3,071 11/20/2016 UMass 3591
Attendance fell markedly beginning about 25 years ago. ________________________________________ One thing GU learned playing in the NBE, is that Syracuse and UConn have a huge fanbase in the DC region; DePaul, Creighton, Butler, Xavier, even Marquette, not so much. I believe Villanova is the remaining draw comparable to UConn and Syracuse, and 'Nova is then followed by, St. John's, Providence, and Seton Hall.
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Post by hc87 on May 19, 2019 20:53:11 GMT -5
Nitpick, there were a couple (few?) Worcester County Classics...I know at least one was held at Hart. I think HC hoop still had a subway alumni following into the early/mid 80s hence the decent #s listed above...but once the BE really took off, it basically withered away. I wonder if ADMB has perused this thread and is now wondering what he got himself into?
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Post by rgs318 on May 19, 2019 21:52:08 GMT -5
Unlikely. He may have seen it, but I believe he knows well what he is getting into.
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Post by timholycross on May 19, 2019 22:12:35 GMT -5
The UMass game in the early 90s might as well have been a UMass home game, crowd had little to do with Holy Cross
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Post by longsuffering on May 19, 2019 23:10:11 GMT -5
1993 was when Coach Cal had the state on fire for UMass BB. The Flutie era at BC is the only other comparison I can remember where a college sports team captured the imagination of the MA public like the Pats, Sox, Celts and Bruins do when they win. I do believe HC BB with Cousy, Kaftan, Heinsohn, Palazzi captured the imagination of the region and possibly State, but I don't remember it.
BTW, ESPN has a feature called: Chasing Ghosts: John Calipari left and UMass basketball died.
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Post by alum on May 20, 2019 6:39:13 GMT -5
To suggest that Brooks made the right decision oh those many years ago because we would have been a doormat in the league is the kind of thinking that has us where we are today. Within ten years of the formation of the BE every team except BC was in the final four and they were in the elite 8 a couple of times. To think we couldn't have competed is crazy as at that time we were already on equal footing with those teams. Perry and Blaney were up for the challenge unfortunately the man in charge was not. The athletic slogan that best fits HC over the years is No We Can't, so sad. You missed the point. If we only cared about men's basketball, we certainly could have competed. We would have, however, had to compete in all of those other sports as well. Unless you wanted HC to finish at or near the bottom of the league in all of the other sports, you would have needed to soften admissions standards for more athletes and commit more money to athletic scholarships. I offered dropping football as one way of doing that.
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