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Post by sader1970 on May 20, 2019 7:40:41 GMT -5
Well, thank God that hasn't happened for us in the Patriot League. (whew!)
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Post by alum on May 20, 2019 7:53:59 GMT -5
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 20, 2019 8:09:18 GMT -5
I had not realized it took the city of Worcester six years to build the Centrum. That is a start and stop construction timeline. The T&G news archives aren't on-line, but my guess is that the start and stop occurred during the early years. That was about the time that Gavitt was conjuring up his Big East, wanting its members to play in big venues, get on television, etc.. Certainly, the Hart didn't fit the image Gavitt was seeking, and Fr. Brooks, at the time, could not be certain that the Centrum would actually be completed.
My own feeling -- which is very subjective and unsupported by any evidence -- is that a proud (arrogant?) Jesuit institution was not about to enthusiastically grasp the initiative of an AD from an 'inferior' Dominican college (academics, history, money, and that didn't play football. I believe that Providence was the only original member that didn't play football.) Now, if Gavitt had been the AD at BC, or Georgetown, or Fordham, perhaps Fr. Brooks' interest might have been greater. ___________________________________
The Providence College basketball archives do not indicate that PC and HC ever played a regular season game in the Boston Garden.
Regular season Big East conference record (through 2016) (seasons competed) BC (26) 181-233 UConn (34) 325-233 GU (36) 353-251 Providence (36) 243-351 St. John's (36) 298-296 Seton Hall (36) 236-358 Syracuse (34) 366-192 Villanova (35) 343-245 Source: Providence basketball archives
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Post by longsuffering on May 20, 2019 8:27:00 GMT -5
In 1979 HC and BC endowments we're similar, now BC's is much more. I think they zoomed ahead while Father F. Donald Monan was President and he would go on the road fundraising with another Jesuit, Father Gronan. They were so good they became known as "Father's Monan and Gronan for BC."😋
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Post by longsuffering on May 20, 2019 8:33:06 GMT -5
I had not realized it took the city of Worcester six years to build the Centrum. That is a start and stop construction timeline. The T&G news archives aren't on-line, but my guess is that the start and stop occurred during the early years. That was about the time that Gavitt was conjuring up his Big East, wanting its members to play in big venues, get on television, etc.. Certainly, the Hart didn't fit the image Gavitt was seeking, and Fr. Brooks, at the time, could not be certain that the Centrum would actually be completed. My own feeling -- which is very subjective and unsupported by any evidence -- is that a proud (arrogant?) Jesuit institution was not about to enthusiastically grasp the initiative of an AD from an 'inferior' Dominican college (academics, history, money, and that didn't play football. I believe that Providence was the only original member that didn't play football.) Now, if Gavitt had been the AD at BC, or Georgetown, or Fordham, perhaps Fr. Brooks' interest might have been greater. ___________________________________ The Providence College basketball archives do not indicate that PC and HC ever played a regular season game in the Boston Garden. Regular season Big East conference record (through 2016) (seasons competed)BC (26) 181-233 UConn (34) 325-233 GU (36) 353-251 Providence (36) 243-351 St. John's (36) 298-296 Seton Hall (36) 236-358 Syracuse (34) 366-192 Villanova (35) 343-245 Source: Providence basketball archives For all of PC's lofty attendance figures they have been co-doormat with Seton Hall in the BE. Attendance Must be a cultural connection between generations in Little Rhody. How does Seton Hall's attendance compare?
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Post by WCHC Sports on May 20, 2019 9:05:23 GMT -5
The Big East doesn't even exist anymore. How many times must we go through this? I'm not sure I was even alive when this decision was made. Let's say HC jumped ship, and lasted until now. Would they be on the same level as Syracuse and Georgetown and some of these other programs where the spend was cited to be 3-4x larger than our budget? What conference would we have joined then? The ACC, the "New Big East" American conference or whatever it's called? Would we be right back in the A-10 or PL counterpart?
Revisionist history is frustrating, and all it serves to accomplish on its most successful day is prove the un-provable right.
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Post by hc87 on May 20, 2019 10:07:49 GMT -5
Have to say, I did find it interesting that formah HCGB was adamant in stating that we made the wrong BE decision in 'Purple Reign.'
It's always going to be the "how many angels on the head of a pin" argument here...at least until those of us who were HC fans during the era when the decision was made leave this mortal coil.
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Post by longsuffering on May 20, 2019 10:23:46 GMT -5
The Big East doesn't even exist anymore. How many times must we go through this? I'm not sure I was even alive when this decision was made. Let's say HC jumped ship, and lasted until now. Would they be on the same level as Syracuse and Georgetown and some of these other programs where the spend was cited to be 3-4x larger than our budget? What conference would we have joined then? The ACC, the "New Big East" American conference or whatever it's called? Would we be right back in the A-10 or PL counterpart? Revisionist history is frustrating, and all it serves to accomplish on its most successful day is prove the un-provable right. Revisionist history is frustrating, yes, but PP's and other's facts and figures are fascinating to me. With his latest BE 26 year attendance figures I learned something and it confirmed my sense that Providence and RI have a multi-generational cultural connection to Friar basketball that is different than the relationship Worcester has with HC basketball presently, but that we can strive to recreate from the Kaftan through Jack "the shot" era and then briefly again during the Potter-Vicens-Perry era. I learned that the connection shown by the large attendance is not dependent upon winning in the BE. What it is dependent on is more subjective but interesting to discuss as Holy Cross specifically strives to becomes "Worcester's Team" as stated in billboards and videos during the BB season and by Coach Chesney in recent statements. We can't revise history but it's fascinating to learn about it and there is no tuition fee to learn from and be fascinated by all of the research done for us by contributors to this board.
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Post by rf1 on May 20, 2019 10:38:03 GMT -5
Sure—-we’ve reviewed them many times. Key difference is that Providence is its own media market with multiple tv stations including the major networks. Worcester is part of Boston market. HC is never the top story when the tv news broadcasts watched by 95% of the people in Worcester area cover sports. The lead story will be the Boston pro teams. What market share does the Worcester TV station have? I’ll guess well under 5%. In contrast, I’ll bet that in Providence PC sports are frequently the lead story in sports—Providence residents likely hear about PC sports 20X what Worcester residents hear about HC sports. Worcester folks might well support a higher profile HC team, but the subject here was Providence’s advantages over Worcester so that’s what I answered
Same circumstance that will likely over time doom the WooSox.
The Povidence metro area, in addition to having its own tv media market which promotes local teams, is also TWICE the size of metro Worcester. There are far more people living close by in and around Providence in densely populated cities and towns. Metro Providence dominates the entire state of RI, something Worcester will never do in MA. The state of RI also has no major pro level teams in it to take away attention.
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Post by hc87 on May 20, 2019 10:40:16 GMT -5
People in Dartmouth will go half an hour to see the Friars play Villanova. People in Barre aren't doing the same to see the Saders play Lafayette....the difference is basically as simple as that.
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Post by rf1 on May 20, 2019 10:50:08 GMT -5
People in Dartmouth will go half an hour to see the Friars play Villanova. People in Barre aren't doing the same to see the Saders play Lafayette....the difference is basically as simple as that.
And there are far more people living in the Dartmouth corridor between both New Bedford and Fall River than anywhere near Barre.
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Post by hc87 on May 20, 2019 10:56:07 GMT -5
Yes and no...the metro area east of Woo, 495 corridor etc has boomed in the last 25 years or so.
I agree that Providence has fan advantages ovah HC/Woo..but it isn't as big as some here make it out to be.
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Post by WCHC Sports on May 20, 2019 11:42:26 GMT -5
The Big East doesn't even exist anymore. How many times must we go through this? I'm not sure I was even alive when this decision was made. Let's say HC jumped ship, and lasted until now. Would they be on the same level as Syracuse and Georgetown and some of these other programs where the spend was cited to be 3-4x larger than our budget? What conference would we have joined then? The ACC, the "New Big East" American conference or whatever it's called? Would we be right back in the A-10 or PL counterpart? Revisionist history is frustrating, and all it serves to accomplish on its most successful day is prove the un-provable right. Revisionist history is frustrating, yes, but PP's and other's facts and figures are fascinating to me. With his latest BE 26 year attendance figures I learned something and it confirmed my sense that Providence and RI have a multi-generational cultural connection to Friar basketball that is different than the relationship Worcester has with HC basketball presently, but that we can strive to recreate from the Kaftan through Jack "the shot" era and then briefly again during the Potter-Vicens-Perry era. I learned that the connection shown by the large attendance is not dependent upon winning in the BE. What it is dependent on is more subjective but interesting to discuss as Holy Cross specifically strives to becomes "Worcester's Team" as stated in billboards and videos during the BB season and by Coach Chesney in recent statements. We can't revise history but it's fascinating to learn about it and there is no tuition fee to learn from and be fascinated by all of the research done for us by contributors to this board. No, I get it, and I'm not critiquing your curiosity. It's just interminably maddening to hear folks harp on the fact that we should have joined, we should have joined, we should have joined. Napoleon shouldn't have invaded Russia. Hitler shouldn't have invaded Russia. Iraq didn't have nukes. And on and on and on. We can't make sound decisions regarding the current MBB program, capitalizing on hockey success, trying quick wins with HC men's lax, or women's field hockey, let alone (prior to AD Blossom, best of luck to him) make sound decisions for the ENTIRE HC athletics department. Focus on the here and now and getting that squared away. Worried about a misstep from 30 years ago like that's been the sole reason why we can't do anything right. My grandfather tripped over his own two feet 60 years ago and I struck out six times last week and it's his fault.
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Post by longsuffering on May 20, 2019 11:46:25 GMT -5
Several years ago during a season PC didn't have a particularly good team a friend of mine's daughter was a student at PC and a group of us went down to a PC game at the Civic Center, had a byob dinner at an Italian restaurant on Federal Hill crowded with fans before the game, the whole deal. I noticed young business people in crisp suits networking and glad-handing in the aisles and realized a PC game was a major place to be seen in Providence even though PC was probably in the BE second division at the time. PP's attendance figures validated that impression. For all the reasons mentioned by others we may not be able to duplicate that at the DCU, but we could Make the Hart Full Again with some good recruiting, coaching and winning.
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Post by longsuffering on May 20, 2019 11:53:13 GMT -5
Revisionist history is frustrating, yes, but PP's and other's facts and figures are fascinating to me. With his latest BE 26 year attendance figures I learned something and it confirmed my sense that Providence and RI have a multi-generational cultural connection to Friar basketball that is different than the relationship Worcester has with HC basketball presently, but that we can strive to recreate from the Kaftan through Jack "the shot" era and then briefly again during the Potter-Vicens-Perry era. I learned that the connection shown by the large attendance is not dependent upon winning in the BE. What it is dependent on is more subjective but interesting to discuss as Holy Cross specifically strives to becomes "Worcester's Team" as stated in billboards and videos during the BB season and by Coach Chesney in recent statements. We can't revise history but it's fascinating to learn about it and there is no tuition fee to learn from and be fascinated by all of the research done for us by contributors to this board. No, I get it, and I'm not critiquing your curiosity. It's just interminably maddening to hear folks harp on the fact that we should have joined, we should have joined, we should have joined. Napoleon shouldn't have invaded Russia. Hitler shouldn't have invaded Russia. Iraq didn't have nukes. And on and on and on. We can't make sound decisions regarding the current MBB program, capitalizing on hockey success, trying quick wins with HC men's lax, or women's field hockey, let alone (prior to AD Blossom, best of luck to him) make sound decisions for the ENTIRE HC athletics department. Focus on the here and now and getting that squared away. Worried about a misstep from 30 years ago like that's been the sole reason why we can't do anything right. My grandfather tripped over his own two feet 60 years ago and I struck out six times last week and it's his fault. Well said.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on May 20, 2019 12:22:45 GMT -5
Will one of you create a specific "remember when HC turned down the BE" thread in the hoops forum, so seemingly every single thread doesn't dissolve into such talk.
Thanks in advance.
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Post by longsuffering on May 20, 2019 13:19:47 GMT -5
Your reasonable request has been fulfilled.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 20, 2019 14:31:36 GMT -5
In 1979 HC and BC endowments we're similar, now BC's is much more. I think they zoomed ahead while Father F. Donald Monan was President and he would go on the road fundraising with another Jesuit, Father Gronan. They were so good they became known as "Father's Monan and Gronan for BC."😋 Holy Cross is still way ahead BC when it comes to endowment dollars per student. BC has inherent advantages of an alumni base of 182,000, and the good fortune to have a school of business. (Peter Lynch had a BA from BC's school of A&S though, --history!!) BC's endowment is roughly about $175,000 per student, HC's is about $250,000 per student. Providence's endowment in 2017 was $221M, RISD's was $330M (RISD's was $352M in 2018). I long ago thought the neatest girls went to RISD, but that observation aside, I find it astounding that a school focussing exclusively on the creative arts has an endowment 50 percent higher than a college in the same city that has spent much of its luchre over the years on fostering a nationally-branded sports program. Providence's long term debt is 76 percent of the endowment value, HC's is 19 percent. BC has $1.050 billion in long term debt, 7x HC's long term-debt.. BC's total enrollment is 5x HC's. _________________________ Below is an answer to a question that was tangentially asked. 1978 average basketball attendance Providence 9168 Syracuse 8605 [Rutgers] 6107 (turned Gavitt down) St. John's 4627 [UMass] 4430 (not invited) (no big arena on the horizon?) UConn 4419 [Holy Cross] 3891 (turned Gavitt down) Georgetown 2898 BC 2567 Villanova 2361 Seton Hall 2231 (Meadowlands built 1981) _________________ URI 4801 (not invited) (competition?) Villanova's attendance was less than half of UPenn's, but ahead of St. Joe's, Temple, and LaSalle.
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Post by timholycross on May 20, 2019 15:04:27 GMT -5
I don't think the Centrum passing or failing had anything to do with HC's invitation. Facilities were not the strong suit of the proposed league members save for PC and Syracuse (which was opening The Dome in 1980). The league got so popular so fast that it made it worthwhile for the schools to seek other venues.
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Post by gks on May 20, 2019 15:06:24 GMT -5
In 1979 HC and BC endowments we're similar, now BC's is much more. I think they zoomed ahead while Father F. Donald Monan was President and he would go on the road fundraising with another Jesuit, Father Gronan. They were so good they became known as "Father's Monan and Gronan for BC."😋 Holy Cross is still way ahead BC when it comes to endowment dollars per student. BC has inherent advantages of an alumni base of 182,000, and the good fortune to have a school of business. (Peter Lynch had a BA from BC's school of A&S though, --history!!) BC's endowment is roughly about $175,000 per student, HC's is about $250,000 per student. Providence's endowment in 2017 was $221M, RISD's was $330M (RISD's was $352M in 2018). I long ago thought the neatest girls went to RISD, but that observation aside, I find it astounding that a school focussing exclusively on the creative arts has an endowment 50 percent higher than a college in the same city that has spent much of its luchre over the years on fostering a nationally-branded sports program. Providence's long term debt is 76 percent of the endowment value, HC's is 19 percent. BC has $1.050 billion in long term debt, 7x HC's long term-debt.. BC's total enrollment is 5x HC's. _________________________ Below is an answer to a question that was tangentially asked. 1978 average basketball attendance Providence 9168 Syracuse 8605 [Rutgers] 6107 (turned Gavitt down) St. John's 4627 [UMass] 4430 (not invited) (no big arena on the horizon?) UConn 4419 [Holy Cross] 3891 (turned Gavitt down) Georgetown 2898 BC 2567 Villanova 2361 Seton Hall 2231 (Meadowlands built 1981) _________________ URI 4801 (not invited) (competition?) Villanova's attendance was less than half of UPenn's, but ahead of St. Joe's, Temple, and LaSalle. Those numbers are great but the percentage of capacity would be a better gauge. Teams played in much smaller 'gyms' then. Played in front of full houses.
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Post by rf1 on May 20, 2019 15:13:20 GMT -5
Yes and no...the metro area east of Woo, 495 corridor etc has boomed in the last 25 years or so. I agree that Providence has fan advantages ovah HC/Woo..but it isn't as big as some here make it out to be.
The problem is the area you cite along Rte 495 gravitates eastward to Boston and not west toward Worcester.
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Post by longsuffering on May 20, 2019 15:17:26 GMT -5
Gavitt didn't want country bumpkins like URI and UMass located in sparse population areas according to a documentary on the forming of the BE I saw a while ago. Watched the whole damn thing and HC was never mentioned unless that was when I had to see a man about a horse for a minute.
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Post by bigfan on May 20, 2019 15:23:02 GMT -5
Many season tickets holders gave up their tickets when HC joined the Colonial/Patriot league and have never returned. I know this as some of those people were my friends. I still have my seats and do wish we would join a better league. The Patriot league is holding us back in recruiting.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on May 20, 2019 15:23:50 GMT -5
Dean - could you kindly move all the BE talk to the thread created for such since some continue to pollute the thread dedicated to the new AD with things that having absolutely nothing to do with him or his hire whatsoever.
Thank you.
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Post by rf1 on May 20, 2019 15:40:53 GMT -5
Gavitt didn't want country bumpkins like URI and UMass located in sparse population areas according to a documentary on the forming of the BE I saw a while ago. Watched the whole damn thing and HC was never mentioned unless that was when I had to see a man about a horse for a minute.
But he wanted a metropolis such as Storrs, CT? The main reason URI was not getting in was because of its proximity to PC. Rhody was actually playing a good number of games at the PCC back then. UMass really didn't have much of a fan following and was very far from the population center of MA.
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