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Post by longsuffering on Sept 3, 2019 9:20:46 GMT -5
What makes this even more troubling is the signifcant budgets that six PL schools have set in football versus the return they see. Here are the 2017-18 numbers ranked by budget size within I-AA/FCS: 4. Fordham $7,386,341 8. Lafayette $6,689,080 11. Colgate $6,210,219 12. Holy Cross $6,132,785 13. Bucknell $5,783,515 14. Lehigh $5,766,426 109. Georgetown $2,038,386 "Dawn breaks over Marblehead." It just dawned on me the reason Georgetown can be increasing it's competitiveness as the only non-scholarship program in the league is possibly the same reason it got snared as an "Elite Institution" in the "Varsity Blues" scandal. Georgetown has gone near-Ivy on us and applicants are willing to pay to go there to play football when they could get a scholarship elsewhere, and possibly being a recruited football player makes them a more attractive applicant. Or maybe they have a great coach.
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Post by inhocsigno on Sept 3, 2019 10:16:25 GMT -5
As much as I may dislike the PL, I think we should hold off on freaking out until we actually win the league. The PL has an auto-bid. Let's use the PL for that purpose and try to make some deep runs in the playoffs. Until we do that, the rest is not relevant. Win the damn league, and get into the show.
Also, schedule as many FBS games as possible. They help with recruiting, money and recognition.
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Post by inhocsigno on Sept 3, 2019 11:12:16 GMT -5
As much as I may dislike the PL, I think we should hold off on freaking out until we actually win the league. The PL has an auto-bid. Let's use the PL for that purpose and try to make some deep runs in the playoffs. Until we do that, the rest is not relevant. Win the damn league, and get into the show. Also, schedule as many FBS games as possible. They help with recruiting, money and recognition. Edited to change FCS to FBS. Just error on my part. For clarity, I think it is better for the program to lose to a BC or Navy than win against a Wagner.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 3, 2019 11:32:57 GMT -5
But it is better to beat Villanova than get blown out by BC and Syracuse. IMHO
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Post by joe on Sept 3, 2019 12:02:58 GMT -5
mm67,
To be honest, what you describe was the objective of the Patriot League, and as much as I regret to say it, this league has been a failure, taking nothing away from Colgate, Lehigh, and the early HC teams who made some noise. It would frankly make more logical sense for HC to drop to D3 based on its small size and emphasis on academics. I would hate to see it happen but I would understand the decision 100%. So yes it’s really dialectic, both extremes having validity, but not this middle ground limbo state.
My assertions are based on a belief that if you want to compete at the high or even middle of the pack in FCS, it’s asking an awful lot from coach and a rec center alone. If you’re in for a penny, you’re in for a pound. Ive said this many times over the years on this board. It’s just the way it is. I also enjoy the fact that HC competes in a league with mates who place a similar emphasis on academics. That’s terrific. But the consortium is an abject failure as an athletic league.I believe our high academic reputation, if coupled with revised league bylaws or by an institutional policy change by HC, would enable us not only compete with less shame athletically in the FCS but also actually enhance our brand, and - believe it or not - our academic reputation as well. You are too worried about HC becoming a jock school. I just don’t see it happening in this lifetime but who knows. At some point you have to have faith. It’s worth a shot at least. The school won’t crumble by bending another 5 degrees and tossing a few more dollars toward coaching. Give it a try and if it fails, well then re-evaluate.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 3, 2019 12:19:10 GMT -5
All this mincing around . . . Jeesh . . all we have to do is look at the CAA and the NEC and imitate. Max schollies, non-medical redshirting, no AI, higher pay. Done. Night football too. No AI is probably a bridge too far for the PL...not that I don't agree, I really can't think of any football guys at HC during the 80s that clearly shouldn't have been there academically. Red-shirting is the real difference between college football in the 1980s and today. It was barely practiced by anyone then but has become de riguer for most today. I'm fairly certain that HC and Lafayette could figure out how to implement this not having graduate schools. Not saying this is the panacea for all PL football woes, but it would be a major step in the right direction imo
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Post by joe on Sept 3, 2019 12:40:21 GMT -5
All this mincing around . . . Jeesh . . all we have to do is look at the CAA and the NEC and imitate. Max schollies, non-medical redshirting, no AI, higher pay. Done. Night football too. No AI is probably a bridge too far for the PL...not that I don't agree, I really can't think of any football guys at HC during the 80s that clearly shouldn't have been there academically. Red-shirting is the real difference between college football in the 1980s and today. It was barely practiced by anyone then but has become de riguer for most today. I'm fairly certain that HC and Lafayette could figure out how to implement this not having graduate schools. Not saying this is the panacea for all PL football woes, but it would be a major step in the right direction imo HC and Laf would probably figure it out roughly the same way they do for medical redshirts. I agree that this simple modification, and 63 schollies, would be most bang for buck. I love the idea for academic reasons as much as athletic. The league, with its academic focus, should consider this change closely as having worked with these guys for almost a decade now I’m sure a lot of them would give their eye teeth for a little more flexibility in scheduling and the chance to focus more intently on rigorous coursework, especially during the summer. Watch GPAs rise even higher.
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Post by bigfan on Sept 3, 2019 12:41:44 GMT -5
After reading all of the above, it comes down to "The PL stinks". We need better athletes, the PL is keeping us back from recruiting those better athletes.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 3, 2019 13:10:17 GMT -5
The ability to redshirt is huge. Make it a requirement that a student-athlete must pick up a double major or add a minor. This practice shouldn't be taboo. Was going to use Navy as an example of a school that is able to succeed without the ability to redshirt (even medical) but they have the unique advantage of being able to use their prep school as a pipeline to their varsity program. This practice would be considered an egregious NCAA violation anywhere outside of the academies. Imagine "Ohio State Prep". The other major factor has to be the roster limits. Theres no other logical reason why we have FALLEN as a league relative to other FCS conferences despite adding 60 scholarships to six of our seven programs. I can imagine "BC High School" but your point is still valid as BC does not stash football players there for a post grad year that I know of. Redshirting in the PL could put HC at a small disadvantage because we don't have graduate courses, but HC does have the ability to individually design a course of study for each student I believe. BC High School is a 4-year high school with no PGs. Same with FORDHAM PREP. Most Catholic and private high schools named "X Preparatory School" actually arent really prep schools in the sense that you cant do a fifth year there. Army and Navy Prep are operated by the military branches with the intent to develop academy applicants who are on the fence for admission but who need an extra year to get up to speed academically. Historically, most classes consist of military legacies and recruited athletes. Within the last 15 years, the pendulum has swung more towards filling classes with athletes namely football players. Compare Navy football relative success now versus year 2000 -- this is a big reason for the improvement. Not only is the prep school an effective redshirt year where players can develop physically but their teams run the same systems as the varsity squads so players have more time to get up to speed or learn new positions.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 14:22:41 GMT -5
60 vs 63 is completely stupid but not one of the primary reasons for PL football struggles. And remember for the first few years of PL scholarships HC was only at 57 or 58. Would not go to 60. Talk about handcuffing...HC made them even tighter. The 90 player limit is the stupidest rule. PL teams have no depth. What is the thinking behind the 90 player limit? If you have "x" amount of scholarships, why does it matter how big the team is? From a depth perspective, HC seems limited in multiple position groups.
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Post by purplehaze on Sept 3, 2019 14:46:44 GMT -5
Did you know how 2 games finished on Saturday - excruciating = CCSU is lined up to the winning FG. kIck is no good and we should be going into OT - but FU coach called timeout just before the snap - next try - GOOD ! = Lehigh trails 14-13 with 6 seconds left - their FG kicker splits the uprights from 40 yds to win the game - but NO ! SFU coach called timeout before the snap - next try NO GOOD !
Only in the PL
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 3, 2019 15:34:04 GMT -5
The rule at Holy Cross is that one completes his/her matriculation in eight semesters. For medical red-shirts gaining an extra year of eligibility, they do not enroll for one semester to stay within the eight semester limit.
A non-medical redshirt, if introduced, would mean the player loses one year of eligibility, because HC is not changing the eight semester rule. The Ivies give you five years to complete the eight semesters. I do not know whether HC has a similar rule.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 3, 2019 15:38:00 GMT -5
The ability to redshirt is huge. Make it a requirement that a student-athlete must pick up a double major or add a minor. This practice shouldn't be taboo. Was going to use Navy as an example of a school that is able to succeed without the ability to redshirt (even medical) but they have the unique advantage of being able to use their prep school as a pipeline to their varsity program. This practice would be considered an egregious NCAA violation anywhere outside of the academies. Imagine "Ohio State Prep". The other major factor has to be the roster limits. Theres no other logical reason why we have FALLEN as a league relative to other FCS conferences despite adding 60 scholarships to six of our seven programs. Two years ago, Navy rostered 160, IIRC, for football.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 3, 2019 15:53:38 GMT -5
And remember for the first few years of PL scholarships HC was only at 57 or 58. Would not go to 60. Talk about handcuffing...HC made them even tighter. The 90 player limit is the stupidest rule. PL teams have no depth. What is the thinking behind the 90 player limit? If you have "x" amount of scholarships, why does it matter how big the team is? From a depth perspective, HC seems limited in multiple position groups. I believe it is cost. I do not know the medical insurance premium for football, but it is not small. And if not 90, what then is the upper limit? When a school gets to rostering a hundred or so, then one can re-institute the JVs, and the NCAA then gives you one additional football coach. Further, there may be lifetime liability for certain injuries that have long-term health implications. www.apnews.com/4a4ed68e4c3a426abc4e34606ae4a399
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 18:12:39 GMT -5
What is the thinking behind the 90 player limit? If you have "x" amount of scholarships, why does it matter how big the team is? From a depth perspective, HC seems limited in multiple position groups. I believe it is cost. I do not know the medical insurance premium for football, but it is not small. And if not 90, what then is the upper limit? When a school gets to rostering a hundred or so, then one can re-institute the JVs, and the NCAA then gives you one additional football coach. Further, there may be lifetime liability for certain injuries that have long-term health implications. www.apnews.com/4a4ed68e4c3a426abc4e34606ae4a399I know when I was at Holy Cross, they conducted JV games. Do they not do that any longer?
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Post by purplehaze on Sept 3, 2019 18:19:07 GMT -5
Correct - have not had a JV program since the 80’s (maybe 70’s) - believe some ivy schools still have JV teams
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 3, 2019 18:24:37 GMT -5
We played JV games up until scholarships and the corresponding roster limits. So provably until about 2012 or 2013.
We would usually play:
Harvard Dartmouth Brown Bridgeton Academy Kent School
Occasionally Assumption IIRC
JV schedule ended once we got into PL slate.
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Post by joe on Sept 3, 2019 18:30:27 GMT -5
We also played Navy Prep in the 90s and some juco schools.
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Post by inhocsigno on Sept 3, 2019 18:37:26 GMT -5
In the late 90's, our JV team also played Tufts and Bentley varsity teams.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 3, 2019 18:42:51 GMT -5
Did you know how 2 games finished on Saturday - excruciating = CCSU is lined up to the winning FG. kIck is no good and we should be going into OT - but FU coach called timeout just before the snap - next try - GOOD ! = Lehigh trails 14-13 with 6 seconds left - their FG kicker splits the uprights from 40 yds to win the game - but NO ! SFU coach called timeout before the snap - next try NO GOOD ! Only in the PL Good for the CCSU kicker.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 18:48:02 GMT -5
We played JV games up until scholarships and the corresponding roster limits. So provably until about 2012 or 2013. We would usually play: Harvard Dartmouth Brown Bridgeton Academy Kent School Occasionally Assumption IIRC JV schedule ended once we got into PL slate. To be honest, I think I have such a negative opinion of Assumption because of the old JV days. I know Brian Kelly (Notre Dame) attended Assumption and coached there, however, always thought it was a joke mainly due to the assistant coaches that landed at HC and watching the JV games. Do any other former players have that same perspective? Maybe I am not up with the modern times.
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Post by efg72 on Sept 3, 2019 18:50:24 GMT -5
Can’t speak to the JV program, I go back to the freshmen era and would love to see it back in place
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 19:09:01 GMT -5
Can’t speak to the JV program, I go back to the freshmen era and would love to see it back in place I definitely think the freshmen/JV program is beneficial in developing players and getting more film. Obviously, it's tough to do with 90 players.
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Post by efg72 on Sept 3, 2019 19:14:41 GMT -5
Not if the approach is to exempt the freshmen team number and not included as part of the 90
Think outside the box. Full scholarship players are ineligible, but all others can play one or both
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Post by cmo on Sept 3, 2019 20:27:31 GMT -5
We played JV games up until scholarships and the corresponding roster limits. So provably until about 2012 or 2013. We would usually play: Harvard Dartmouth Brown Bridgeton Academy Kent School Occasionally Assumption IIRC JV schedule ended once we got into PL slate. To be honest, I think I have such a negative opinion of Assumption because of the old JV days. I know Brian Kelly (Notre Dame) attended Assumption and coached there, however, always thought it was a joke mainly due to the assistant coaches that landed at HC and watching the JV games. Do any other former players have that same perspective? Maybe I am not up with the modern times. Assumption football was terrible for a long time. Beyond terrible.
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