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Post by Tom on Mar 17, 2020 8:40:50 GMT -5
Completely ridiculous. If a kid is not interested in playing defense and/or is not interested on being anything other than a ball-dominant PG, that does not make him a bad kid, and nobody on here has said that. lowder's attitude, grades, and selfishness were all called into question here. we get it, in your view the transfer is 101% on lowder, -1% on nelson. just like everything else in this program. i suspect there was more even distribution of blame and the more players that leave the program, uninspring as some of their performance was, the more that balance tilts. the reality is that nelson's ability to make the most out of a roster and manage personnel are question marks right now to anyone with a shred of objectivity. he was a first year head coach and i hope he is learning. slack is there for now, but cutting slack for more than a handful of players leaving a program and 20+ loss seasons in the patriot league doesn't last forever. Is it possible that Coach Nelson has laid out a series of expectations and some kids decided that wasn't what they signed up for? Is that on the player or the coach? There was something on another thread about Rick Pitino chewing out a B.U. kid because getting to practice 3 minutes before it was scheduled wasn't being there early enough. In a totally hypothetical situation, if you have a kid who shows up, ready to go one minute before scheduled practice, but the coach's rule is you're there 15 minutes before said practice and stretching, and said kid cutting it too close has to run suicides. Kid quits team because he hates all the suicides. Is the coach at fault for rigidly insisting that you're have to be 15 minutes early or is the kid at fault for cutting things too close? Or is no one at fault and just a bad mix? DISCLAIMER - I am NOT saying, suggesting, or implying that this is the situation with any departed player. Just throwing out a hypothetical
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Post by efg72 on Mar 17, 2020 8:53:21 GMT -5
If one looks at all the players leaving, and while there are differing opinions on the talent on the roster, it certainly is possible individual players were encouraged to depart-- directly or indirectly.
Assume for the sake of argument this would be valid, it would be very difficult to call this new hoops environment a culture of accountability and discipline or a culture built on trust and respect.
If you assume it to be false then perhaps there is no blame to the staff and it was handled perfectly.
My mom always told me there are two sides to every story.... in this case, we don't necessarily need to know or understand what takes place in practice or the locker room, but we should recognize few things are as they appear ( paraphrased from an old acquaintance James Jesus Angleton)
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Post by hcpride on Mar 17, 2020 8:54:12 GMT -5
On the bright side, we have seen a balanced attrition via the transfer portal the last couple of years (some good and some not so good, some tall and some short, some rookies and some relative veterans). Just about the only bright side to HC BB I can find this rainy AM.
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Post by timholycross on Mar 17, 2020 9:36:27 GMT -5
If one looks at all the players leaving, and while there are differing opinions on the talent on the roster, it certainly is possible individual players were encouraged to depart-- directly or indirectly. Assume for the sake of argument this would be valid, it would be very difficult to call this new hoops environment a culture of accountability and discipline or a culture built on trust and respect. If you assume it to be false then perhaps there is no blame to the staff and it was handled perfectly. My mom always told me there are two sides to every story.... in this case, we don't necessarily need to know or understand what takes place in practice or the locker room, but we should recognize few things are as they appear ( paraphrased from an old acquaintance James Jesus Angleton) Regarding the two scholarships sophomores that have left, "encouraged" in some way or another (perhaps as simple as not giving them minutes) seems to be the case. Neither one was really ready to play in Nelson's system. Perhaps they never would have been. As I've said before, the recruits BC brought in fall of 2018 were more representative of several (not all) of the non-scholarship players recruited in the Blaney/Raynor years.
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Post by trimster on Mar 17, 2020 9:57:45 GMT -5
In defense of Coach Carmody, the two recruits he brought in in the fall of 2018 were last minute recruits. It wasn't until Charles and Stevens were removed from the program in I believe early March of 2018, that two scholarships were available. Until then, I don't think there were any plans to bring in anyone that fall because there were no scholarships available.
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Post by timholycross on Mar 17, 2020 10:04:32 GMT -5
That makes sense; and if all the other departures had not occurred; we might not care that much.
Hope it's similar to the story someone posted about Jay Twyman, who went to South Carolina instead of BU "because I overestimated my basketball skills". In this case, those young men should have chosen a lower level.
Either that or Carmody's system was the only one that either one of those guys would have looked good in. They both had good looking shots, but not too many of them went in.
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Post by dadominate on Mar 17, 2020 10:29:03 GMT -5
lowder's attitude, grades, and selfishness were all called into question here. we get it, in your view the transfer is 101% on lowder, -1% on nelson. just like everything else in this program. i suspect there was more even distribution of blame and the more players that leave the program, uninspring as some of their performance was, the more that balance tilts. the reality is that nelson's ability to make the most out of a roster and manage personnel are question marks right now to anyone with a shred of objectivity. he was a first year head coach and i hope he is learning. slack is there for now, but cutting slack for more than a handful of players leaving a program and 20+ loss seasons in the patriot league doesn't last forever. Is it possible that Coach Nelson has laid out a series of expectations and some kids decided that wasn't what they signed up for? Is that on the player or the coach? There was something on another thread about Rick Pitino chewing out a B.U. kid because getting to practice 3 minutes before it was scheduled wasn't being there early enough. In a totally hypothetical situation, if you have a kid who shows up, ready to go one minute before scheduled practice, but the coach's rule is you're there 15 minutes before said practice and stretching, and said kid cutting it too close has to run suicides. Kid quits team because he hates all the suicides. Is the coach at fault for rigidly insisting that you're have to be 15 minutes early or is the kid at fault for cutting things too close? Or is no one at fault and just a bad mix? DISCLAIMER - I am NOT saying, suggesting, or implying that this is the situation with any departed player. Just throwing out a hypothetical great post, tim. my guess is that it was ultimately a bad mix, and that some compromise was in order from both sides for the good of the program that did not occur. from lowder's side, he needed to respect his coach (even if it was not who he committed to... he committed to the *school*), and that respect would hold even if nelson's methods were questionable (benching with no other options, calling him out in media interviews, etc.) and somewhat tone deaf to the classroom behavior of holy cross student athletes. the moping in layup lines when benched is somewhat understandable for an 18 year old, but still out of line. from nelson's side, he needed to understand that while it is important to show that you are in charge, that some of the aforementioned methods were a bit strong/tone deaf for a first year coach and that respect must be earned, even if it is a player like lowder who seemed a bit too headstrong. pitino and those types have earned respect from players (maybe not fans for how they run the program) resultant from decades of success. suffice to say nelson isn't there yet. again, compromise would have seemed appropriate and the program would be in a much less risky position. i can't think of a player who has had more pressure on his shoulders from day one than rj johnson? we will struggle and are another year away from contending for a pl title, but another sub-10 win season is not acceptable for a program already on life support after a 3 win season, so johnson had better be ready. i wish lowder and the rest of the players who left the program the best, but that's not what i am concerned about. nelson is who i care about since he is our leader, and i don't want to see this happen with any more talented players. the truth is almost always in the middle as tim, efg, myself and many others have posted, and i think all but just a few posters (really just one?) here sees it that way. i just hope we don't see anything like this again because you need to keep talented players in the program at this level.
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Post by hc6774 on Mar 17, 2020 10:37:16 GMT -5
In defense of Coach Carmody, the two recruits he brought in in the fall of 2018 were last minute recruits. It wasn't until Charles and Stevens were removed from the program in I believe early March of 2018, that two scholarships were available. Until then, I don't think there were any plans to bring in anyone that fall because there were no scholarships available. Actually it appears that there were plans to recruit 3 pwo's with otp's in spring '18. Other than being a full pay & a roster spot, I don't know what else an otp might involve.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 17, 2020 10:51:36 GMT -5
The 15 minute diary requirement to be "on time" has always bothered me. If that is the time the players must be there, say so! Of course, I was forgetting that the amount of practice time is limited. By doing it this way (get here 15 minutes early and stretch or you are late), it does not take away from practice time and does allow a team to get around the "time limit" in NCAA regulations.
Much/most of what I know about all that has gone on I get from Crossports. If the talent of new HC recruits is well above the level those who were here, the overall effect can be positive. I believe Nelson and his staff have a plan. Have no clear idea how the transfer portal fits into that plan. Are we losing players that we want to keep, or are we clearing spots for future recruits? The opinions here run the gamut so one can pick and choose what they wish got believe about what has happened/is happening. I do have to. chuckle about those who express chagrin over players entering the transfer portal - who here. same people said were not real Division 1 level players. Which is it?
Personally, I hope we start the year with the new recruits joining Butler, Pridgen, Niego, Ward and Faw - along with others who are now on the team. That alone would be a strong start to moving the rebuilding along. As time passes, we will see. On a related. note, I am also interested to see how the football coaches work around all that is happening to get ready for September.
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Post by timholycross on Mar 17, 2020 10:58:14 GMT -5
I guess it's just the way you say something that matters.
For example, "boys, we start our drills at 2pm". The kids are smart enough to know they can't just walk on the floor at 1:58 and do that effectively. Especially if a coach espouses the Pitino philosophy which is that those drills are most effective if you run them at as close to full speed as possible.
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Post by hchoops on Mar 17, 2020 11:04:51 GMT -5
Dado There was as much or almost as much pressure on Lowder this season as there will be for RJ next year
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Post by possum on Mar 17, 2020 11:10:50 GMT -5
There is no defense for what Carmody did with the scholarships that opened up with the departures of Charles and Stevens. You only compound the problem by giving scholarships to players in late spring who have virtually no other offers. What's the likelihood that a 6'11 player who can play has no D-1 offers after completion of his senior season, not much. We would have been better served by holding the scholarships over to the fall recruiting cycle where there would have been a much larger pool of talent to pursue.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 17, 2020 11:19:24 GMT -5
"What if..." can be a very tricky game and hindsight can appear to be 20/20. Even if HC might have been better served by holding the scholarships, what point does bringing it up now serve?
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 17, 2020 11:49:54 GMT -5
lowder's attitude, grades, and selfishness were all called into question here. we get it, in your view the transfer is 101% on lowder, -1% on nelson. just like everything else in this program. i suspect there was more even distribution of blame and the more players that leave the program, uninspring as some of their performance was, the more that balance tilts. the reality is that nelson's ability to make the most out of a roster and manage personnel are question marks right now to anyone with a shred of objectivity. he was a first year head coach and i hope he is learning. slack is there for now, but cutting slack for more than a handful of players leaving a program and 20+ loss seasons in the patriot league doesn't last forever. Is it possible that Coach Nelson has laid out a series of expectations and some kids decided that wasn't what they signed up for? Is that on the player or the coach? There was something on another thread about Rick Pitino chewing out a B.U. kid because getting to practice 3 minutes before it was scheduled wasn't being there early enough. In a totally hypothetical situation, if you have a kid who shows up, ready to go one minute before scheduled practice, but the coach's rule is you're there 15 minutes before said practice and stretching, and said kid cutting it too close has to run suicides. Kid quits team because he hates all the suicides. Is the coach at fault for rigidly insisting that you're have to be 15 minutes early or is the kid at fault for cutting things too close? Or is no one at fault and just a bad mix? DISCLAIMER - I am NOT saying, suggesting, or implying that this is the situation with any departed player. Just throwing out a hypothetical Your question is a Rorsach test. The coach is at fault because he is far more than a boss in a sweatshop. He is an educator and a mentor of young men. How can he mentor someone who is off the team? A good coach gets the best out of each player and helps them become a better person. A coach who says practice begins at 2 but plays mind games with players who arrive at 1:55 is on a power trip and wasting time and focus.
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Post by possum on Mar 17, 2020 11:57:43 GMT -5
RGS it's not 20/20 hindsight I said the same thing when Carmody recruited these guys. Like it or not Carmody's recruiting efforts are a major reason why we are where we are.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Mar 17, 2020 12:01:13 GMT -5
In the scenario mentioned, the fault would be in clear communication with the team. The schedule should have been clear regarding each day of practice. For example, team should be dresses and completing pre practice preparation, including stretching exercises at 1:58 for a 2:00 PM practice. Each day of practice is defined in discrete time blocks.
Hypothetically, if a player has a 1:00 PM class in Stein or Carlin, that is not over until 1:45 or 1:50, getting to the Luth by 1:55 is still a stretch.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 17, 2020 12:12:31 GMT -5
Bill Walton might have butted heads with BN. Did John Wooden lose many players off of his teams? How did he corral Walton and get the best out of him?
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Post by efg72 on Mar 17, 2020 12:15:48 GMT -5
Very Busy day on the transfer portal-Chris Herren leaving BC and a host of others in the last hour or so
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Post by bringbackcaro on Mar 17, 2020 12:30:35 GMT -5
Is it possible that Coach Nelson has laid out a series of expectations and some kids decided that wasn't what they signed up for? Is that on the player or the coach? There was something on another thread about Rick Pitino chewing out a B.U. kid because getting to practice 3 minutes before it was scheduled wasn't being there early enough. In a totally hypothetical situation, if you have a kid who shows up, ready to go one minute before scheduled practice, but the coach's rule is you're there 15 minutes before said practice and stretching, and said kid cutting it too close has to run suicides. Kid quits team because he hates all the suicides. Is the coach at fault for rigidly insisting that you're have to be 15 minutes early or is the kid at fault for cutting things too close? Or is no one at fault and just a bad mix? DISCLAIMER - I am NOT saying, suggesting, or implying that this is the situation with any departed player. Just throwing out a hypothetical again, compromise would have seemed appropriate and the program would be in a much less risky position. i can't think of a player who has had more pressure on his shoulders from day one than rj johnson? we will struggle and are another year away from contending for a pl title, but another sub-10 win season is not acceptable for a program already on life support after a 3 win season, so johnson had better be ready. We have finished in last place in the PL in each of the past two years, and have had one season with a record above .500 in the PL in the past eight seasons -- the bar has been set incredibly low. Nobody in their right mind should expect that this group of freshmen is going to come in and immediately turn this program around.
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Post by Tom on Mar 17, 2020 13:03:57 GMT -5
In the scenario mentioned, the fault would be in clear communication with the team. The schedule should have been clear regarding each day of practice. For example, team should be dresses and completing pre practice preparation, including stretching exercises at 1:58 for a 2:00 PM practice. Each day of practice is defined in discrete time blocks. Hypothetically, if a player has a 1:00 PM class in Stein or Carlin, that is not over until 1:45 or 1:50, getting to the Luth by 1:55 is still a stretch. Mindful of the fact the coach who prompted the hypothetical but did actually insist on early arrival was first time head coach Rick Pitino. Although to bring it back to HC, I am told Coach Willard had the same rule. I have no clue what Coach Nelson's expectations are for arrival at practice
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Post by WorcesterGray on Mar 17, 2020 13:24:07 GMT -5
Willard's teams observed "Crusader Time." If you arrived 15 minutes early to practice, you were on time; if you arrived "on time," you were late.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 17, 2020 13:49:56 GMT -5
Very Busy day on the transfer portal- Chris Herren leaving BC and a host of others in the last hour or so 6-19 on threes and 5-26 (not a typo) on twos. He may get snapped up quickly by some team looking for an abysmal shooter
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Post by HC92 on Mar 17, 2020 13:52:03 GMT -5
Very Busy day on the transfer portal-Chris Herren leaving BC and a host of others in the last hour or so As mentioned in another post, sophomore transfers with two years left (like Herren) would be better for class balancing purposes than frosh transfers with 3 years left (though those are more attractive for the obvious reason of the extra year). Sophomore transfers wind up in Ryan Wade’s class. Freshmen transfers wind up in RJ Johnson’s class.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 17, 2020 14:04:37 GMT -5
RGS it's not 20/20 hindsight I said the same thing when Carmody recruited these guys. Like it or not Carmody's recruiting efforts are a major reason why we are where we are. ...and bring it up now, months or years after, since it was already brought up as you point out serves what purpose? That was my question. (PS: I am aware that your opinion about some of these recruits is long-standing.)
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 17, 2020 14:09:02 GMT -5
RGS it's not 20/20 hindsight I said the same thing when Carmody recruited these guys. Like it or not Carmody's recruiting efforts are a major reason why we are where we are. ...and bring it up now, months or years after, since it was already brought up as you point out serves what purpose? (PS: I am aware that your opinion about some of these recruits is long-standing.) Seems relevant to me because Carmody's sub-par recruiting classes are directly impacting the state of the current program. We don't know the exact reasons guys like Hargis and Verbeek have elected to transfer, but it's safe to surmise that Nelson probably hinted that they weren't in the plans for the future. If a message board can't look back at past decisions and discuss them, this place would get pretty boring pretty quickly.
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