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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Oct 2, 2016 23:05:19 GMT -5
I don't think Holy Cross hockey would draw well at the DCU Center. It is far too big and HC hockey has little following. The school's most storied sport (hoops) cannot even draw people downtown. If the Crusaders Hockey team were to play at the DCU Center, you would have TWO hockey teams struggling to attract fans. The Worcester metro area has shown it has trouble supporting local sports teams. The Worcester metro area supported Holy Cross athletics big time until they gave the middle finger to the city, declined the big east, and retreated within the walls of the campus. Thanks Fr. Brooks.
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Post by bfoley82 on Oct 3, 2016 2:40:22 GMT -5
Men's Ice Hockey average attendance 2015-16 Between 5,000 and 6,000
UMass Lowell UConn Between 4,000 and 5,000
BC UNH Notre Dame BU Between 3,000 and 4,000
Maine Vermont Between 2,000 and 3,000
Providence 2980 (3705 undergrads) average basketball attendance in 2015-16 9703 UMass 2868 (20,551 undergrads) average basketball attendance 3365 Northeastern 2459 (13,492 undergrads) average basketball attendance 1786 Merrimack 2359 (2850 undergrads) average basketball attendance 337 ____________ Holy Cross 1060, average basketball attendance 1611 IMO, a belief that paid attendance for HC ice hockey in Worcester would surpass paid attendance for men's hoops is not grounded in current reality. HC's priorities when it comes to revenue sports are 1.) football, 2.) basketball. (Some would argue that basketball is a higher priority, but men's basketball, at the moment, has less total attendance than football. And HC spends more on football.) 3.) ice hockey. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The only thing that HC has going for it with respect to HE membership is geographic proximity to the five Boston-centric schools that I view as calling the shots: BC, BU, Northeastern, Providence, and UNH. These five schools spent av average of $4.9M on M/W ice hockey in 2015-16. HC spent $1.8M. Has HC indicated it is willing to spend an additional $3 million on ice hockey to simply bring HC up to this average? How much would HC's rent for HE games at the DCU cost in addition to the $3 million? (All these five play on-campus.) Rink-size at three schools other than HC within reasonable travel distance to the five schools listed s urpa:RPI 5200 Quinnipiac 3100 Army 2750 (RIT 4300) Merrimack and Providence both pack their facilities which are the two smallest in the conference. So those hockey attendance figures are at like 98 percent.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Oct 3, 2016 6:16:51 GMT -5
I don't think Holy Cross hockey would draw well at the DCU Center. It is far too big and HC hockey has little following. The school's most storied sport (hoops) cannot even draw people downtown. If the Crusaders Hockey team were to play at the DCU Center, you would have TWO hockey teams struggling to attract fans. The Worcester metro area has shown it has trouble supporting local sports teams. The Worcester metro area supported Holy Cross athletics big time until they gave the middle finger to the city, declined the big east, and retreated within the walls of the campus. Thanks Fr. Brooks. How was that decision giving Worcester a middle finger? HC made a decision based on what was best for the College. We can argue if it was ultimately a good decision for HC, but HC does not have a fiduciary responsibility to the city to provide sports entertainment, and Worcester really shouldn't take that decision personally. If Worcester fans are stung and don't want to come back and support HC, then that is their decision. Just not at all sure which team Worcester will ever decide to support given the growing list of failed franchises.
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Post by bigfan on Oct 3, 2016 6:48:02 GMT -5
Most people do not realize that the DCU Center was put up because the city was hoping that HC would join the Big East. At that time the Hart Center was sold out for most games and the city was really supporting the school. Even Channel 27 had big ratings for telecast of the games, they even did some away games live. Father Brooks did hurt the athletic programs for football and basketball and he did give Worcester the middle finger.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 3, 2016 7:27:30 GMT -5
Construction started on the Centrum in 1981. Holy Cross chose not to join the Big East in 1979. .
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Oct 3, 2016 8:51:43 GMT -5
Construction started on the Centrum in 1981. Holy Cross chose not to join the Big East in 1979. . Wrong. Ground was broke in Dec of 1977, and the Centrum opened in Sep of 1982.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 3, 2016 9:10:11 GMT -5
Construction started on the Centrum in 1981. Holy Cross chose not to join the Big East in 1979. . Ground was broke in Dec of 1977, and the Centrum opened in Sep of 1982. Did it really take almost five years to complete?
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Oct 3, 2016 9:15:09 GMT -5
The Worcester metro area supported Holy Cross athletics big time until they gave the middle finger to the city, declined the big east, and retreated within the walls of the campus. Thanks Fr. Brooks. How was that decision giving Worcester a middle finger? HC made a decision based on what was best for the College. We can argue if it was ultimately a good decision for HC, but HC does not have a fiduciary responsibility to the city to provide sports entertainment, and Worcester really shouldn't take that decision personally. If Worcester fans are stung and don't want to come back and support HC, then that is their decision. Just not at all sure which team Worcester will ever decide to support given the growing list of failed franchises. There are people on this board that find it mind boggling that the city would appear to be siding with a minor league hockey franchise over Holy Cross in the hockey east. Whether it is true or not I can understand why those the run the city of Worcester would be very skeptical of the commitment Holy Cross will show towards a league upgrade. Would I rather see Hockey East hockey at the DCU instead of a AA hockey league, of course. But this league is ready to go, they have purchased property, they are building practice rinks on previously undeveloped property, and appear to be making an aggressive effort to succeed. What is Worcester supposed to do, tell them to take a hike? And once they do that Holy Cross will announce they are actually very happy in the Atlantic Hockey League and decide to stay put? If anyone needs to do a good selling job on this it is Holy Cross to the city and the DCU Center. And no, of course Holy Cross has no fiduciary responsibility to the city of Worcester for providing sports entertainment. On the other hand, don't expect the city of Worcester to be ever so grateful when HC floats a trial balloon about joining Hockey East. You can't have it both ways.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Oct 3, 2016 9:23:10 GMT -5
Ground was broke in Dec of 1977, and the Centrum opened in Sep of 1982. Did it really take almost five years to complete? It did take that long, and I can remember my father driving me by the construction site telling me that is where we would be watching Holy Cross basketball games. Without the potential of Holy Cross basketball playing in that arena it probably never would have been built.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 3, 2016 9:24:36 GMT -5
I afraid that I am not following this hen you said: "of course Holy Cross has no fiduciary responsibility to HC for providing sports entertainment."
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Oct 3, 2016 9:27:05 GMT -5
I afraid that I am not following this hen you said: "of course Holy Cross has no fiduciary responsibility to HC for providing sports entertainment." Thanks for pointing out, edited the post.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Oct 3, 2016 9:45:04 GMT -5
Ground was broke in Dec of 1977, and the Centrum opened in Sep of 1982. Did it really take almost five years to complete? Rob - as wormtown Sader fan points - it did indeed take that long. Countless delays.
And Big Fan is correct in stating one of the reasons it was erected was for the potential move to the BE.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 3, 2016 10:10:50 GMT -5
I heard long before there was a shovel in the ground that "they(HC) will only play there on special occasions". Never was a committment from tptb (i.e. Fr. Brooks) to play there.
Big East decision was consistent with that and to me, much as i didn't like it, no surprise.
Which is why Wormtown's comments are dead on. Nothing in writing, not even any public comments that would come back to embarrass HC if they didn't follow up on them.
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Post by gks on Oct 3, 2016 10:53:53 GMT -5
This weekend it was announced the owner of the new ECHL franchise just bought more properties in the Canal District. He is investing heavily and has deep, deep pockets. The city cannot blow this guy off. I believe it will all work out in the end. HC will play in Hockey East. No league wants an odd number of teams for scheduling and HC makes too much sense for HE to choose another team. Let Railers get established and then the announcement will be made.
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Post by Tom on Oct 3, 2016 11:17:18 GMT -5
There are people on this board that find it mind boggling that the city would appear to be siding with a minor league hockey franchise over Holy Cross in the hockey east. Whether it is true or not I can understand why those the run the city of Worcester would be very skeptical of the commitment Holy Cross will show towards a league upgrade. Would I rather see Hockey East hockey at the DCU instead of a AA hockey league, of course. But this league is ready to go, they have purchased property, they are building practice rinks on previously undeveloped property, and appear to be making an aggressive effort to succeed. What is Worcester supposed to do, tell them to take a hike? And once they do that Holy Cross will announce they are actually very happy in the Atlantic Hockey League and decide to stay put? If anyone needs to do a good selling job on this it is Holy Cross to the city and the DCU Center. And no, of course Holy Cross has no fiduciary responsibility to the city of Worcester for providing sports entertainment. On the other hand, don't expect the city of Worcester to be ever so grateful when HC floats a trial balloon about joining Hockey East. You can't have it both ways. In my opinion, what Worcester is supposed to do is honor the commitment they've made to the Railers. But also make it clear that after the Railers exercise their right of first crack at the calendar, the city will try to fill every leftover open date with whomever they can find - be that NCAA hockey or filming location for Mighty Ducks XXIV
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Post by bfoley82 on Oct 3, 2016 11:22:41 GMT -5
This weekend it was announced the owner of the new ECHL franchise just bought more properties in the Canal District. He is investing heavily and has deep, deep pockets. The city cannot blow this guy off. I believe it will all work out in the end. HC will play in Hockey East. No league wants an odd number of teams for scheduling and HC makes too much sense for HE to choose another team. Let Railers get established and then the announcement will be made. Building a few hockey rinks has nothing to do with the ECHL team. The owner is using those hockey rinks to MAKE money off all the youth leagues in the area for ice time. If anyone thinks that is investing in the community for the greater good, they are wrong. He is just trying to make money off his privately owned hockey rink and try to challenge the New England Sports Center for ice time.
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Post by gks on Oct 3, 2016 11:43:39 GMT -5
No kidding he is trying to make money....if he wasn't establishing the Railers here...he wouldn't be in Worcester building rinks or buying properties. The rinks he's building or dormant buildings he's buying are on the city's tax roll. Sharks or IceCats never did this. It is in Worcester's interest that this team succeeds.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Oct 3, 2016 16:22:41 GMT -5
How was that decision giving Worcester a middle finger? HC made a decision based on what was best for the College. We can argue if it was ultimately a good decision for HC, but HC does not have a fiduciary responsibility to the city to provide sports entertainment, and Worcester really shouldn't take that decision personally. If Worcester fans are stung and don't want to come back and support HC, then that is their decision. Just not at all sure which team Worcester will ever decide to support given the growing list of failed franchises. There are people on this board that find it mind boggling that the city would appear to be siding with a minor league hockey franchise over Holy Cross in the hockey east. Whether it is true or not I can understand why those the run the city of Worcester would be very skeptical of the commitment Holy Cross will show towards a league upgrade. Would I rather see Hockey East hockey at the DCU instead of a AA hockey league, of course. But this league is ready to go, they have purchased property, they are building practice rinks on previously undeveloped property, and appear to be making an aggressive effort to succeed. What is Worcester supposed to do, tell them to take a hike? And once they do that Holy Cross will announce they are actually very happy in the Atlantic Hockey League and decide to stay put? If anyone needs to do a good selling job on this it is Holy Cross to the city and the DCU Center. And no, of course Holy Cross has no fiduciary responsibility to the city of Worcester for providing sports entertainment. On the other hand, don't expect the city of Worcester to be ever so grateful when HC floats a trial balloon about joining Hockey East. You can't have it both ways. What is the commitment thing of which you speak? If the DCU issue is straightened out, HC will be invited to HE, HC will accept, upgrade to 18 scholarships, spend more money on the program and play games at DCU. That simple. You think that some middle manager at City Hall is pouring over spreadsheets questioning how much we are planning to spend on sticks, pucks and a new third assistant? Please. Worcester pols are like a puppy enamored with a piece of shiny tinsel on Christmas morning. Instead of doing everything they can to make it feasible for both teams to play at DCU, they are standing aside and letting the Railers and their jerkwater owner have his way. If Worcester politicians were at all compotent, they could help the situation. It amuses me that Tim Murray as the Director of the Central Mass Chamber of Commerce is ignoring the fact that 20 downtown dates for Holy Cross hockey would pump hundreds of thousands of dollars into the city.
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Post by wooman on Oct 4, 2016 7:26:05 GMT -5
There are people on this board that find it mind boggling that the city would appear to be siding with a minor league hockey franchise over Holy Cross in the hockey east. Whether it is true or not I can understand why those the run the city of Worcester would be very skeptical of the commitment Holy Cross will show towards a league upgrade. Would I rather see Hockey East hockey at the DCU instead of a AA hockey league, of course. But this league is ready to go, they have purchased property, they are building practice rinks on previously undeveloped property, and appear to be making an aggressive effort to succeed. What is Worcester supposed to do, tell them to take a hike? And once they do that Holy Cross will announce they are actually very happy in the Atlantic Hockey League and decide to stay put? If anyone needs to do a good selling job on this it is Holy Cross to the city and the DCU Center. And no, of course Holy Cross has no fiduciary responsibility to the city of Worcester for providing sports entertainment. On the other hand, don't expect the city of Worcester to be ever so grateful when HC floats a trial balloon about joining Hockey East. You can't have it both ways. What is the commitment thing of which you speak? If the DCU issue is straightened out, HC will be invited to HE, HC will accept, upgrade to 18 scholarships, spend more money on the program and play games at DCU. That simple. You think that some middle manager at City Hall is pouring over spreadsheets questioning how much we are planning to spend on sticks, pucks and a new third assistant? Please. Worcester pols are like a puppy enamored with a piece of shiny tinsel on Christmas morning. Instead of doing everything they can to make it feasible for both teams to play at DCU, they are standing aside and letting the Railers and their jerkwater owner have his way. If Worcester politicians were at all compotent, they could help the situation. It amuses me that Tim Murray as the Director of the Central Mass Chamber of Commerce is ignoring the fact that 20 downtown dates for Holy Cross hockey would pump hundreds of thousands of dollars into the city. HC hockey has a fan base of about 1,000. I assume that a fair number of these attendees are students, who as I understand it do not have to pay for a ticket to games at the Hart Center (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Will students on a snowy night in late January want to come downtown to see the Merrimack game? That's questionable. However, assuming that every one of those fans who attended games last year would trek to the DCU and likely pay more for a ticket, that leaves us with the challenge of tripling that number to avoid this being an embarrassing endeavor for HC and HE. Sure you may get a smattering of boosters and parents from neighboring programs to fill a few seats, but the vast majority of those remaining 2K attendees would have to be fans from the community. That requires building relationships and expanding the presence of HC in the community. It is tragic how tone deaf HC has become toward the Worcester area on this and other matters. The preachy, Brooksonian approach to this ain't going to work here fellas.
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Post by Xmassader on Oct 4, 2016 8:03:48 GMT -5
If I recall the timing correctly, the vote to build the Centrum/DCU Center took place in late 1977 or early 1978 before the Big East was formed (I believe the summer of 1978). At the time, the vote met significant opposition from anti-tax increase citizens (leader-Doris Huard?) and passed by less than 100 votes (if I recall correctly). The vote occurred during the heart of the Potter/Vicens/Perry era and those supporting a favorable vote anticipated/assumed that HC hoops would play at least some games there when it was built but that, more importantly, a favorable vote would provide the city with a venue large enough to attract concerts, minor league sports, conventions, etc. at a time when the Auditorium at 2800 capacity had the largest capacity of any public venue in the city. I don't remember if HC/Fr. Brooks made any formal pronouncements at the time but, if HC/he did so, it was not under the "pressure/knowledge" of Big East formation.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Oct 4, 2016 8:12:33 GMT -5
What is the commitment thing of which you speak? If the DCU issue is straightened out, HC will be invited to HE, HC will accept, upgrade to 18 scholarships, spend more money on the program and play games at DCU. That simple. You think that some middle manager at City Hall is pouring over spreadsheets questioning how much we are planning to spend on sticks, pucks and a new third assistant? Please. Worcester pols are like a puppy enamored with a piece of shiny tinsel on Christmas morning. Instead of doing everything they can to make it feasible for both teams to play at DCU, they are standing aside and letting the Railers and their jerkwater owner have his way. If Worcester politicians were at all compotent, they could help the situation. It amuses me that Tim Murray as the Director of the Central Mass Chamber of Commerce is ignoring the fact that 20 downtown dates for Holy Cross hockey would pump hundreds of thousands of dollars into the city. HC hockey has a fan base of about 1,000. I assume that a fair number of these attendees are students, who as I understand it do not have to pay for a ticket to games at the Hart Center (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Will students on a snowy night in late January want to come downtown to see the Merrimack game? That's questionable. However, assuming that every one of those fans who attended games last year would trek to the DCU and likely pay more for a ticket, that leaves us with the challenge of tripling that number to avoid this being an embarrassing endeavor for HC and HE. Sure you may get a smattering of boosters and parents from neighboring programs to fill a few seats, but the vast majority of those remaining 2K attendees would have to be fans from the community. That requires building relationships and expanding the presence of HC in the community. It is tragic how tone deaf HC has become toward the Worcester area on this and other matters. The preachy, Brooksonian approach to this ain't going to work here fellas. HC is in the community every day. Those that don't see this are blind. HC is Big Brothers in Worcester. SPUD, Mustard Seed, Cancer Walks, Women's shelters, school readings, park cleanups. Working for Worcester, Nativity School, Wheels to Water, Bookmobile, etc etc etc. Athletics has much greater outreach last few years with their marketing. You can accuse alma mater of a great many things, but to accuse the school of not being a good citizen and neighbor is certainly not one of them.
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Post by Sader Fan on Oct 4, 2016 8:18:03 GMT -5
I graduated in 77 and I distinctly remember pro-civic center flyers touting HC basketball as one of the major tenants. At the time you couldn't get a ticket to the always sold out Hart Center so it was believed HC would be a big draw and helped justify the expense to build the Centrum.
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Post by nhteamer on Oct 4, 2016 9:11:55 GMT -5
"At the time you couldn't get a ticket to the always sold out Hart Center so it was believed HC would be a big draw."
Wow
what happened???
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Oct 4, 2016 10:23:17 GMT -5
"At the time you couldn't get a ticket to the always sold out Hart Center so it was believed HC would be a big draw." Wowwhat happened???That's funny...
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Post by wooman on Oct 4, 2016 10:27:46 GMT -5
HC hockey has a fan base of about 1,000. I assume that a fair number of these attendees are students, who as I understand it do not have to pay for a ticket to games at the Hart Center (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Will students on a snowy night in late January want to come downtown to see the Merrimack game? That's questionable. However, assuming that every one of those fans who attended games last year would trek to the DCU and likely pay more for a ticket, that leaves us with the challenge of tripling that number to avoid this being an embarrassing endeavor for HC and HE. Sure you may get a smattering of boosters and parents from neighboring programs to fill a few seats, but the vast majority of those remaining 2K attendees would have to be fans from the community. That requires building relationships and expanding the presence of HC in the community. It is tragic how tone deaf HC has become toward the Worcester area on this and other matters. The preachy, Brooksonian approach to this ain't going to work here fellas. HC is in the community every day. Those that don't see this are blind. HC is Big Brothers in Worcester. SPUD, Mustard Seed, Cancer Walks, Women's shelters, school readings, park cleanups. Working for Worcester, Nativity School, Wheels to Water, Bookmobile, etc etc etc. Athletics has much greater outreach last few years with their marketing. You can accuse alma mater of a great many things, but to accuse the school of not being a good citizen and neighbor is certainly not one of them. HC students make important contributions to the area in ways you describe, however most spend their 4 years here and then understandably move on. It is the institutional commitment that HC has to the community that is rightfully questioned. This is an unfortunate byproduct of the Brooks tenure on Mt. St. James, which preached the motto that "HC needs to do what's best for HC". This cornerstone of Fr. Brooks' leadership always struck me as at odds with the Jesuit values which call on us to share our gifts, to broaden our understanding of others, and to increase civic engagement.
For a school whose endowment and academic reputation eclipses those of other Worcester colleges, HC's institutional footprint in the community is relatively small. The ECHL owner in just a few months has made a greater financial investment in Worcester than HC has in quite some time.
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