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Post by hchoops on Jun 16, 2020 7:48:38 GMT -5
Ky how about some handicapping ?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 16, 2020 9:21:46 GMT -5
I'll be working on it and will let you know. Having the Belmont before the Preakness and Kentucky Derby is strange but having it at 9F instead of 1&1/2 miles is truly bizarre.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jun 16, 2020 10:59:07 GMT -5
A one-off for this year only 1 1/8 miles is the right thing to do for the training regimen and health of the horses given the upheaval in the thoroughbred sked this spring.
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Post by trimster on Jun 16, 2020 11:14:39 GMT -5
A one-off for this year only 1 1/8 miles is the right thing to do for the training regimen and health of the horses given the upheaval in the thoroughbred sked this spring. I am not much of a horse racing fan but I do know the Triple Crown races get progressively longer and was wondering about this recently. Thank you gentlemen for answering my question.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 16, 2020 13:35:18 GMT -5
Just for the record here are the distances for the traditional triple crown
Kentucky Derby 1&1/4 miles—very few if any of the entrants will have run this far before as the key preps are 1&1/16th then 1&1/8th (e.g. Wood, Blue Grass, “derbies” in AR, Fl, Santa Anita) First Saturday in May
Preakness 1&3/16ths (so 110 yards shorter than KY Derby) 2 weeks after KY Derby
Belmont 1&1/2 miles 3 weeks after Preakness Often features some “fresh shooters” who lost in KY Derby then skipped the Preakness to be more rested than the half dozen runners who ran Derby and Preakness
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Post by bfoley82 on Jun 16, 2020 15:02:40 GMT -5
Just for the record here are the distances for the traditional triple crown Kentucky Derby 1&1/4 miles—very few if any of the entrants will have run this far before as the key preps are 1&1/16th then 1&1/8th (e.g. Wood, Blue Grass, “derbies” in AR, Fl, Santa Anita) First Saturday in May Preakness 1&3/16ths (so 110 yards shorter than KY Derby) 2 weeks after KY Derby Belmont 1&1/2 miles 3 weeks after Preakness Often features some “fresh shooters” who lost in KY Derby then skipped the Preakness to be more rested than the half dozen runners who ran Derby and Preakness I been to the Belmont a couple of times....they make it look like a huge track on TV, it is crazy how huge that track is compared to like Saratoga.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 16, 2020 15:14:03 GMT -5
Yes, Belmont is a huge track at 1& 1/2 miles circumference, which can affect how races are run. For example, Fonner Park in Nebraska has such a short track that a simple 6 furlong sprint is run around two turns, so going wide can be a real disadvantage. In contrast, many larger tracks have a "chute" so that 1 mile races are run around only one turn. Some horses (& riders) are not that good going around turns so they would prefer bigger tracks.
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Post by timholycross on Jun 16, 2020 21:51:02 GMT -5
Horses nowadays imply aren't bred to run races that long. It's one of the reasons that, in a normal year, a considerable number of Derby horses don't run in all three races.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 16, 2020 23:15:44 GMT -5
Horses nowadays imply aren't bred to run races that long. It's one of the reasons that, in a normal year, a considerable number of Derby horses don't run in all three races. The overwhelming majority of horses are bred for precocity--to win early at age 2 when there are lucrative races--and that usually means a sprint orientation. There are some stamina sires out there and therein lies the real opportunity for handicappers--to catch foals out of Kitten's Joy, Lemon Drop Kid, Tiznow, Giant's Causeway, Hard Spun etc as they attempt 9F or longer for the first time. When the PPs for the Belmont Stakes become available we can take a look at the pedigrees of the entrants and perhaps eliminate a few runners
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Post by hchoops on Jun 17, 2020 10:26:01 GMT -5
Never gets old
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jun 17, 2020 10:40:51 GMT -5
Win: Tiz The Law
Place: Pneumatic
Show: Dr. Post
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 17, 2020 10:42:59 GMT -5
Amazing to watch that race. You are correct that it never gets old.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jun 17, 2020 10:54:08 GMT -5
Big Red's performance at the Belmont in '73 was the most impressive feat in the history of sports.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 17, 2020 11:41:11 GMT -5
Andrew Beyer, who invented the Beyer Speed Factor that is now the analytical foundation for most handicappers, went back and did some analysis of Secretariat's performance. He gave Secretariat a 139 BSF for the race. It's hard to put that into perspective, but we can say that 100 is very good, 110 is outstanding, and that maybe twice a year does a horse run a Beyer in the low 120's. Secretariat set the North American record for 1&1/2 miles and he was geared down as he won by 31 lengths.
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Post by hchoops on Jun 17, 2020 11:54:25 GMT -5
Has a non North American horse run faster ?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 17, 2020 13:07:49 GMT -5
I should specify that “North American” refers to tracks in North America, not to where the horses were born. I’ll have to check foreign records but,of course, many foreign races are run at metric distances
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Post by HC92 on Jun 17, 2020 17:21:06 GMT -5
Wow. Don’t think I’d ever watched that whole race. Amazing performance.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 17, 2020 17:59:17 GMT -5
You'll note that Sham contested the pace versus Secretariat for much of the race. Sham had the misfortune of being born the same year as Secretariat. He had the distinction of running the second fastest Kentucky Derby in history--but the trouble was he did so while finishing second. He also finished second in the Preakness and then took that third crack at Secretariat in the Belmont. Alas, Sham suffered a stress fracture in his right front cannon bone in the Belmont and was retired to stud duty. If he were born any other year he might have put up a most impressive record.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 19, 2020 23:31:27 GMT -5
The Belmont Stakes
How strange it will be to see today's Belmont Stakes occurring before the Kentucky Derby and Preakness, at just 1 & 1/8th miles instead of the mile-and-a-half "test of champions", and run around just one turn. Still, it's great to have NYRA running again and I think we'll have a great race.
#8 Tiz The Law looks like a very deserving favorite and he may well go off at even money (morning line is 6-5). He will be tough to beat and will likely be the focus of most of my horizontal investment. The March 3YO is 4 for 5 with all the wins by at least 3 lengths and 2 of the 4 in graded stakes races. He has beaten some very good competitors, Ete Indian in both the Holy Bull and the Florida Derby in which he also defeated Gouvernor Morris and Independence Hall. He Beyered 100 then 96 in those two races but he won by so much that he id not have to go all out at the finish.His lone loss came on a sloppy track at Churchill Downs. The distance is no issue and it's really too bad he won't get to show his talent at the marathon distance. Sire Constitution is young but early indications are that his foals have stamina and the dam was a solid turf router.
I also like #1 Tap It To Win and had a nice score on him his last outing-- a Tapit foal stretching out to 1 &1/16th from a 6 furlong sprint. He led the whole way and won by 5 lengths in an allowance race on this track. As a son of Tapit he'll like the 1 &1/8th miles. His dam was a solid dirt router. Rider John Velazquez should take him right to the lead and he is a threat to "steal" the race if he can get away with a soft pace (over 47 seconds for the half)
#2 Sole Volante won the Sam F Davis at Tampa Bay but beat a weak field. He then lost the Tampa Bay Derby as the favorite. He has the breeding to relish the distance and as he comes from way in the back of the pack (15 lengths back after 1/2 mile in the SF Davis) the added ground may help him. He wants a fast pace in front of him that will wear out the front runners. I don't think he'll get that fast pace
#10 Pneumatic is lightly raced and well-bred as an Uncle Mo foal. His dam was a sprinter and he has no dam-side siblings for us to study. He's really a bit of a wild card and will offer some value.
#3 Max Player won the Grade-3 Withers at this distance against so-so competition and has not raced since February. Surprisingly, he is David Aragona's (TimeForm US) selection. #4 Modernist is another Uncle Mo foal . He won his division of the Risen Star at this distance and then finished 3rd in the Louisiana Derby.
#7 Jungle Runner does not belong in this race . He has lost his last 4 races by at least 14 lengths and his Beyer top of 66 would not put him in the money in a good maiden race. #6 Fore Left looks like a miler/sprinter to me and #5 Farmington Road looks to be a decent allowance horse but lost his two graded stakes races by 4 then 7 lengths.
#9 Dr Post is another wild card as he is lightly raced. Morning line is 5-1 but I think you'll get more favorable odds than that. The fabulous Irad Ortiz rides and he'd be a threat on a Shetland pony. I hope to be alive to him in the P4, P5, P3
I see Tap It To Win going right to the lead, perhaps Pneumatic will challenge, with Tiz The Law sitting in third or fourth within 2 lengths of the leader all the way until the stretch. I think Tiz The Law will prevail in the stretch unless Tap It To Win gets away with too soft a pace. Sole Volante will come flying at the end but I'll bet he won't be able to pass Tiz. Pneumatic and maybe Dr Post will be there in deep stretch as well.
Good luck to everyone
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 20, 2020 17:02:09 GMT -5
Tiz the Law Dr Post Max Player
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