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Post by Crucis#1 on Jul 19, 2020 19:50:23 GMT -5
The Horace Mann approach was innovative for the 19th and part of the 20th century. It no longer the only valid model for our current students. Minus the rampant sexual abuse of boys at Horace Mann over the years. I was referring to the pedagogical structure and learning model of the educator Horace Mann, not the school in NYC. Please review both citations to understand my original comment regarding educational restructuring for the 21st century. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Mannen.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Mann_SchoolAs a bit of trivia, name the HC alum who shares the same hometown as Horace Mann the educator.
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Post by hcpride on Jul 19, 2020 19:58:34 GMT -5
On a happier note, one of my golf buddy’s kids is a big travel baseball player here on LI and reports his son’s team started tournament play last weekend. No issues. So beyond professional baseball in Queens, we’ve got youth baseball in Nasssu and Suffolk right now.
Something tells me golf and baseball and soccer are outdoor sports that are not associated with increased Covid -19 deaths.
Golf News: Legendary golfer Jack Nicklaus revealed Sunday that he and his wife tested positive for the coronavirus back in March when the pandemic first swept across the United States. Nicklaus, who made the revelation during the CBS telecast of the Memorial Tournament, said his wife showed no COVID-19 symptoms, but he had had a sore throat and a cough. He also said that they were home in North Palm Beach, Florida, from March 13 “until we were done with it” on about April 20.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jul 19, 2020 20:05:51 GMT -5
Minus the rampant sexual abuse of boys at Horace Mann over the years. I was referring to the pedagogical structure and learning model of the educator Horace Mann, not the school in NYC. Please review both citations to understand my original comment regarding educational restructuring for the 21st century. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Mannen.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Mann_SchoolAs a bit of trivia, name the HC alum who shares the same hometown as Horace Mann the educator. Thanks. I was not aware of this approach and assumed you were referring to the school in the Bronx.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jul 19, 2020 20:16:12 GMT -5
Yesterday I stopped by a new softball complex in CT for a few minutes, where a number of games were being played. I stayed in my car, with windows up and observed from a distance to stay in my social distance bubble.
Access into the complex became limited at the gate, with the change over of teams from the early playing pod to the later playing pod of teams, which was good to limit the crowd inside the complex, however a glaring observation was that while queuing at the gate, not all players and family observed mask up.
In order to limit possible infections while outdoors, the games non participants should have been following recommended public health practices, which they did not follow. The lack of discipline was disappointing regarding safety and public health.
Observing the public during this epidemic will provide volumes of information for sociologist, psychologists, psychiatrists and MPH practitioners.
Hope to be around to read their research.
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Post by hcpride on Jul 19, 2020 20:35:45 GMT -5
Yesterday I stopped by a new softball complex in CT for a few minutes, where a number of games were being played. I stayed in my car, with windows up and observed from a distance to stay in my social distance bubble. Access into the complex became limited at the gate, with the change over of teams from the early playing pod to the later playing pod of teams, which was good to limit the crowd inside the complex, however a glaring observation was that while queuing at the gate, not all players and family observed mask up. In order to limit possible infections while outdoors, the games non participants should have been following recommended public health practices, which they did not follow. The lack of discipline was disappointing regarding safety and public health. Observing the public during this epidemic will provide volumes of information for sociologist, psychologists, psychiatrists and MPH practitioners. Hope to be around to read their research. Great to see sports making a return. After witnessing the tens and thousands of screaming protestors and looters night after night jamming NYC’s streets last month (without a subsequent spike in deaths or even in cases) I’ve developed a thicker skin for minor and outdoor social distancing glitches.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jul 19, 2020 20:41:38 GMT -5
On a happier note, one of my golf buddy’s kids is a big travel baseball player here on LI and reports his son’s team started tournament play last weekend. No issues. So beyond professional baseball in Queens, we’ve got youth baseball in Nasssu and Suffolk right now. Something tells me golf and baseball and soccer are outdoor sports that are not associated with increased Covid -19 deaths.
Golf News : Legendary golfer Jack Nicklaus revealed Sunday that he and his wife tested positive for the coronavirus back in March when the pandemic first swept across the United States. Nicklaus, who made the revelation during the CBS telecast of the Memorial Tournament, said his wife showed no COVID-19 symptoms, but he had had a sore throat and a cough. He also said that they were home in North Palm Beach, Florida, from March 13 “until we were done with it” on about April 20.
I don't think ANY sports are the problem right now, in New York. Saturday July 11th, we recorded ZERO COVID deaths. ZERO!!!! PP did a great job providing the econometric term for whatever the reason is behind this. But there must be a biological, scientific reason as well. I'm sorry -- it's not solely because all New Yorkers are just so woke that we're out-social distancing everyone else. Go to Orchard Beach, any park or any Irish bar and you'l see it's far from the case. That being said, there are many other regions in the country that are currently going through what we went through in April. These regions must go full throttle on flattening the curve now and push all non-essential activities to the curb until they make it to the other side. And other places (ex. Indiana) where the shoe perhaps just hasn't dropped yet -- these area must monitor hospitalizations and deaths on a daily basis to make the proper decisions as we head into fall.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jul 19, 2020 20:44:38 GMT -5
Yesterday I stopped by a new softball complex in CT for a few minutes, where a number of games were being played. I stayed in my car, with windows up and observed from a distance to stay in my social distance bubble. Access into the complex became limited at the gate, with the change over of teams from the early playing pod to the later playing pod of teams, which was good to limit the crowd inside the complex, however a glaring observation was that while queuing at the gate, not all players and family observed mask up. In order to limit possible infections while outdoors, the games non participants should have been following recommended public health practices, which they did not follow. The lack of discipline was disappointing regarding safety and public health. Observing the public during this epidemic will provide volumes of information for sociologist, psychologists, psychiatrists and MPH practitioners. Hope to be around to read their research. Great to see sports making a return. After witnessing the tens and thousands of screaming protestors and looters night after night jamming NYC’s streets last month (without a subsequent spike in deaths or even in cases) I’ve developed a thicker skin for minor and outdoor social distancing glitches. Thank you herd immunity. Many of the looters and protesters came from other states and are now back home infecting their own communities. Many of those that are from here likely had been exposed already and have antibodies. Florida was not so lucky post-protest/riot. COVID has EXPLODED in South Florida in the wake of the unrest down there.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jul 19, 2020 20:52:50 GMT -5
The remote learning day should be from 8-6 with breaks in home for students to review course materials as well as assignments that can be submitted electronically. For what age group ? Middle school through high school. Structure breaks throughout the day so that students can have lunch, bathroom time, etc to renew and refresh their attention and learning. Maybe even a brief siesta for stressed teachers. On an anecdotal note, there are students who had a better academic experience taking class remotely due to not having the adolescent peer pressure from the normal classroom day. The modified remote model will lessen in person bullying (mean girls and alpha males seeking hegemony over perceived nerds). For science labs, etc, that require equipment and facilities for safety that are not available at home, have the students attend in a limited pod which will change the interaction model. For younger students K-6, a restructured day in pods, to get through the health crisis. Saturday instruction should be on the table to limit density with limited classroom availability. The 7:30 -2, or 8-3 model day for instruction may no longer be viable. The “agrarian”, and “factory” model is outdated.
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Post by hchoops on Jul 19, 2020 21:46:46 GMT -5
That agrarian model began the current schedule, but at least in junior and high school, sports drive much of the daily schedule, including the pedagogically backwards schedule in many suburban and ex-urban areas of having junior and high school schedules early, 7:30-2, and the elementary schools from 9-3. This is due mainly to sports and bus availability.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jul 19, 2020 22:21:22 GMT -5
That agrarian model began the current schedule, but at least in junior and high school, sports drive much of the daily schedule, including the pedagogically backwards schedule in many suburban and ex-urban areas of having junior and high school schedules early, 7:30-2, and the elementary schools from 9-3. This is due mainly to sports and bus availability. Unfortunately true. In too many situations a culture out of control regarding the education of students. They are being denied a truly enriched education for the sake of a sport being played. Parents need to think 40+ years of life after school, not the 4 possible years of athletic competition.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 19, 2020 23:29:49 GMT -5
Considering the “knowns knowns”, and the “unknown knowns” logically, competitive sports should be cancelled this academic year in secondary schools. I would rather see an extended school day, using a hybrid model of in-class and remote learning that would lessen density for in-class learning. Think out of the cylinder. The old “normal” model is flawed and anachronistic for 21st Century education. The home remote learning day should be extended and not condensed. The remote learning day should be from 8-6 with breaks in home for students to review course materials as well as assignments that can be submitted electronically. For those students taking in school learning, the pod system with morning and afternoon pods with additional instruction or learning experiences via video either synchronous or asynchronous during the 8-6 timeframe at home also could be utilized. It will be healthier for teachers, students and parents. There are many logistical hurdles, but the time is now for change. It’s a unique opportunity to reimagine education for the 21st century. The Horace Mann approach was innovative for the 19th and part of the 20th century. It no longer the only valid model for our current students. In school or remote learning, the schools in Aroostook County, Maine will still close for the potato harvest. Actually that tradition has been dying out, but the morning and afternoon pod model has been used before - out of necessity. In the 1960s the rapid movement of families out of Boston to the suburbs, combined with the baby boom created many situations where suburbs could not build new schools fast enough and had to resort to "double sessions." Those double sessions were considered undesirable and that helped bolster enrollment at Catholic schools who maintained single sessions. One of my high school classmates was Jewish who was at a Catholic High School because she would have had only half a day of school in her town. We all envied her not having to sit through Religion Class four days a week. Reducing class size for student safety is a good reason to reinstate double sessions or pods again, but perhaps parents will feel the same way their grandparents did in the sixties, that it is a necessary temporary adjustment but not as desirable as the standard five full days a week of education that the whole family can plan their schedule around.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 20, 2020 0:11:28 GMT -5
Double sessions--would the school system need to hire many more teachers to handle these extra classes? I can't imagine the teachers unions agreeing to increase the workload on their union members
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Post by rgs318 on Jul 20, 2020 5:17:19 GMT -5
One issue in that larger. number may be that anyone who has a positive test for Covid-19 and dies will have that listed as the cause of death by hospitals. That was the case with a man who was positive for Covid-19 and was killed in a motorcycle accident. I only learned recently that having more deaths from Covid-19 deaths can mean more funding for hospitals.
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Post by hcpride on Jul 20, 2020 5:48:06 GMT -5
Middle school through high school. Structure breaks throughout the day so that students can have lunch, bathroom time, etc to renew and refresh their attention and learning. Maybe even a brief siesta for stressed teachers. On an anecdotal note, there are students who had a better academic experience taking class remotely due to not having the adolescent peer pressure from the normal classroom day. The modified remote model will lessen in person bullying (mean girls and alpha males seeking hegemony over perceived nerds). For science labs, etc, that require equipment and facilities for safety that are not available at home, have the students attend in a limited pod which will change the interaction model. For younger students K-6, a restructured day in pods, to get through the health crisis. Saturday instruction should be on the table to limit density with limited classroom availability. The 7:30 -2, or 8-3 model day for instruction may no longer be viable. The “agrarian”, and “factory” model is outdated. As a current teacher (asynchronous and synchronous from March thru June) I'll spare you most of the experience of myself and my peers regarding distance learning and high schoolers. Except to note that the bright and motivated kids tended to continue their success...very little learning from the unmotivated, special education, and below average students. I don't know when those kids will catch up on their learning. Since the vast majority -and most damaging - of bullying we see in our schools today is cyberbullying, I can't speak to whether that increased or decreased (I do know that some of our most at-risk kids who have very little support at home were particularly impacted by the move to distance learning). It is certainly true that since kids were cut off from their peers they had no physical interaction with them. One issue we saw was that during synchronous (live and interactive) teaching sessions, high schoolers were not showing their faces so teachers had absolutely no idea if the kid was watching Netflix, playing Fortnite, or furiously vaping. Or all three. A rookie peer told a girl to turn her camera on. She did. He won't be doing that again. There have been some wonderful theories regarding innovative ideas to enhance online learning for young people. Some sound really neat. Some are wildly unworkable. (Some start with the rather hilarious, IMHO, notion that kids have supportive home environments.)
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Jul 20, 2020 6:33:03 GMT -5
One issue in that larger. number may be that anyone who has a positive test for Covid-19 and dies will have that listed as the cause of death by hospitals. That was the case with a man who was positive for Covid-19 and was killed in a motorcycle accident. I only learned recently that having more deaths from Covid-19 deaths can mean more funding for hospitals. Surprised that you would write this, rgs. To cite one extreme case (if even that is true) and then use it to imply that the mortality stats are unreliable is beneath your usual rational approach to issues. Fauci has stated that Covid deaths are undercounted, not exaggerated.
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Post by rgs318 on Jul 20, 2020 7:21:46 GMT -5
Sorry if I communicated poorly. I was only seeking to point out that the statistics we are seeing are not that simple to explain. Some have a variety of factors that shape the numbers we get, including (but not limited to) politics. My wife (the long time nurse) is always trying to find out what the mortality rates were in the past for a given area to compare to the current figures for Covid-19 deaths. That information can be difficult to find.
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Jul 20, 2020 8:05:17 GMT -5
No, I would never imply that.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jul 20, 2020 8:07:29 GMT -5
That agrarian model began the current schedule, but at least in junior and high school, sports drive much of the daily schedule, including the pedagogically backwards schedule in many suburban and ex-urban areas of having junior and high school schedules early, 7:30-2, and the elementary schools from 9-3. This is due mainly to sports and bus availability. Unfortunately true. In too many situations a culture out of control regarding the education of students. They are being denied a truly enriched education for the sake of a sport being played. Parents need to think 40+ years of life after school, not the 4 possible years of athletic competition. Would you not be a believer that high school sports could be an essential piece of developing an individual's character? Supplemental to the classroom education. And it's not just sports. Non-jocks have after school activities too -- Math Team, Chess, Young Democrats/Republicans, Student Government, French Club, Band, etc. etc.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jul 20, 2020 8:59:54 GMT -5
That agrarian model began the current schedule, but at least in junior and high school, sports drive much of the daily schedule, including the pedagogically backwards schedule in many suburban and ex-urban areas of having junior and high school schedules early, 7:30-2, and the elementary schools from 9-3. This is due mainly to sports and bus availability. Unfortunately true. In too many situations a culture out of control regarding the education of students. They are being denied a truly enriched education for the sake of a sport being played. Parents need to think 40+ years of life after school, not the 4 possible years of athletic competition. As a hoops coach, I’m surprised you would say this. The life lessons and education that comes through competitive sports cannot be replicated in the classroom.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jul 20, 2020 9:12:53 GMT -5
I played Varsity Soccer at a very large all boys catholic high school, my freshmen class was approx 650, (the high school at that time was as large as Holy Cross) when the sport was generally played by first or second generation immigrants, several decades ago. There were very few members of the team, whose direct families had been in the United States for more 40 years. While playing soccer provided additional knowledge and understanding of the global stage of the sport, I would not say it formed my character. That was done by my parents before I entered High School.
Unfortunately over the last 30 or so years, in many communities, travel team, and high school sports has become the be all and end all for the high school community and their town, ( Friday Night Lights). In too many communities, students and parents have been extremely misguided regarding their academic decisions based on the desire to play a sport over an academic program. I have seen on more than one occasion where a student thinks he or she is a star athlete, and base his or her next institution, prep school or college, based solely on playing that sport. This is evident in the current rampant transfer culture in high schools and colleges.
While I agree that playing sports can be great for community bonding and friendships, I have seen a lot of less than stellar academic and career decisions based on the ego of being a perceived star athlete. During the current pandemic, character formation has been tested. Unfortunately I have seen too many situations where self discipline has not been displayed.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jul 20, 2020 9:37:44 GMT -5
As the old adage goes — “everything in moderation.”
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jul 20, 2020 9:46:07 GMT -5
I played Varsity Soccer at a very large all boys catholic high school, my freshmen class was approx 650, (the high school at that time was as large as Holy Cross) when the sport was generally played by first or second generation immigrants, several decades ago. There were very few members of the team, whose direct families had been in the United States for more 40 years. While playing soccer provided additional knowledge and understanding of the global stage of the sport, I would not say it formed my character. That was done by my parents before I entered High School. Unfortunately over the last 30 or so years, in many communities, travel team, and high school sports has become the be all and end all for the high school community and their town, ( Friday Night Lights). In too many communities, students and parents have been extremely misguided regarding their academic decisions based on the desire to play a sport over an academic program. I have seen on more than one occasion where a student thinks he or she is a star athlete, and base his or her next institution, prep school or college, based solely on playing that sport. This is evident in the current rampant transfer culture in high schools and colleges.
While I agree that playing sports can be great for community bonding and friendships, I have seen a lot of less than stellar academic and career decisions based on the ego of being a perceived star athlete. During the current pandemic, character formation has been tested. Unfortunately I have seen too many situations where self discipline has not been displayed. Totally agree with you on the emphasis of athletics over academics when it comes to sports and college choices. The toxic transfer culture is a result of this as you stated. The biggest problem IMO is the emphasis at such a young age for kids' to specialize in one sport and also for families to hold themselves hostage to the schedules of "elite travel teams" for children not even yet in their teenage years. Remember when we would just play Little League in our local rec league in the spring and then represent our town in the early summer in the regional league? Somehow I feel that people must believe that the further your 8-year old travels to play a soccer game against other 8-year old's, the better little Johnny must be. You have high school basketball players transferring 5 times between 8th grade and their second senior year after reclassification via prep school. Kids " verbally committing" to colleges before they've even gone to their first high school dance. I do think the "Friday Night Lights" culture, from what I've observed, has tamed a bit over the last 15 years or so. From relatives to family friends, it seems like high school sports are less the end-all-be-all of the local social scene than in the past. Part of the reasoning for this may not be good -- i.e. kids being less social in general in the age of online video games and rampant social media use. But I do think the whole "jocks rule the school" mentality has definitely become less prevalent, at least in the Northeast.
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Post by hc87 on Jul 20, 2020 10:27:13 GMT -5
This has evolved into an interesting discussion on a variety of fronts.
We may be entering a whole new world with regard to hs and college education /athletics.
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Post by hc2020 on Jul 20, 2020 12:13:56 GMT -5
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Post by timholycross on Jul 20, 2020 17:54:01 GMT -5
That agrarian model began the current schedule, but at least in junior and high school, sports drive much of the daily schedule, including the pedagogically backwards schedule in many suburban and ex-urban areas of having junior and high school schedules early, 7:30-2, and the elementary schools from 9-3. This is due mainly to sports and bus availability. My town did a study and reversed the start times, in effect. I think high school is something along the lines of 830-245. The sports schedules were adjusted but not significantly; we're fortunate that we are in a league where most bus rides are 30 minutes max.
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