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Post by Tom on Jan 27, 2021 9:30:38 GMT -5
No one got the required 75 percent of the ballots
Without going into the steroid issue keeping Clemens and Bonds out, I like the idea of an empty class. Some years ago, no one got voted into the basketball hall of fame and they put in a policy that top voters would go in if no one got the votes, Literally lowering the standards so they could have an induction ceremony. Cousy was very vocally opposed at the time.
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bpob55
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 114
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Post by bpob55 on Jan 27, 2021 9:34:36 GMT -5
I agree with an empty class. Keep the hall small!
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 27, 2021 10:10:53 GMT -5
Doesn't Curt Schilling belong in the Hall?
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Post by alum on Jan 27, 2021 10:39:43 GMT -5
Doesn't Curt Schilling belong in the Hall? Yes. His numbers put him in. His post season numbers should guarantee him a spot. In my mind, he is a horrible human being but as far as I know, he never cheated at baseball and has never been convicted of a serious crime. The Hall's character clause is too vague to apply, in my mind, to things that people say outside of baseball. I can let him in no matter how much I can't stand him Bonds and Clemens are harder calls but I am starting to think they should go in. They were both criminally charged with regard to the truth of statements they made under oath, but both were ultimately cleared (Bonds on appeal.) Over time, I am becoming more convinced that players who were never suspended or convicted of a crime related to steroid use ought to probably get in the Hall. I think I am going to draw the line there.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 27, 2021 10:42:32 GMT -5
What has Schilling done that you deem to be so horrendous? I know he made some ill-advised business decisions--is there more than that?
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Post by thecrossisback on Jan 27, 2021 10:43:59 GMT -5
Only Schilling and Kent should have made it from this class.
I agree with a small room for the Hall.
But the Veterans committee has put to many very good players in.
That it's to easy to say Player X is better than that Player Y who is in Cooperstown.
KY it his political statements that have kept him out.
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Post by alum on Jan 27, 2021 11:06:56 GMT -5
Only Schilling and Kemp should have made it from this class. I agree with a small room for the Hall. But the Veterans committee has put to many very good players in. That it's to easy to say Player X is better than that Player Y who is in Cooperstown. KY it his political statements that have kept him out. I would agree that his political statements have probably caused some to not vote for him but I also think that he is transphobic, anti Muslim, and more. He was suspended once and then fired by ESPN for these comments.
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Post by Tom on Jan 27, 2021 11:09:23 GMT -5
I am not aware of anyone who has gotten 70 percent of the votes with eligibility left and not gotten in. I predict Schilling goes next year
In terms of Bonds and Clemens, I stated in another thread that I think Gaylord Perry set the precedent that cheaters can go.
There is a prescribed penalty for getting caught using steroids. First of all, these two never failed a test, even though it is pretty universally accepted that they took steroids. This isn't gambling on baseball. If they had failed a steroid test, they would still be eligible. Hall ineligibility is not a prescribed penalty for steroids. Writers should put the steroids in their thought process and make a decision. Yes - this gets really subjective. I look at the resumes and decide if steroids are enough to withhold a vote. I think I would vote for Bonds and Clemens. No longer on the ballot, I would not have voted for Palmeiro. Look at each individual case and make a decision. If 75 percent of the people who's vote matters say OK, I won't squawk on those two
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 27, 2021 11:10:37 GMT -5
I believe Schilling has asked to be taken off next year's ballot
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Post by Tom on Jan 27, 2021 11:15:48 GMT -5
That is correct. That doesn't mean it will or should be taken off the ballot. It might hurt his chances of getting in if next year if some writers who otherwise would have voted remember his request and honor his wishes by not voting. However, I expect that his name will be on the ballot
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 27, 2021 11:22:38 GMT -5
Re; Schilling, nothing to do with baseball other than his famous name opened some doors that wouldn't have been opened for others. Not being a baseball, Red Sox or a native Rhode Islander, I pretty much ignored this when it was all over the local news. My only connection was my boss' autistic son was going to work for Schilling's company that didn't get off the ground. Not sure if this issue is what might be keeping him out of the HOF but some locally felt he scammed them and the RI taxpayers.
From wiki:
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 27, 2021 12:47:53 GMT -5
Baseball talent-wise? My eyeballs say obviously Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling were HOFers. I feel like Rolen is close, but never "felt" like a HOFer... some dedicated Philly sportswriters say otherwise and that's okay. He's got the stats. Vizquel was phenomenal fielding, but again, never felt like an HOFer. Regarding the BBWAA acting like the morality police, first I say HAHAHAHA this is a child's game that men play in pajamas. Few athletes are worthy of our admiration for anything other than athletic feats. Second:
A) You can't tell me that taking steroids makes you a better baseball player. Bonds and Clemens were awesome before they were even linked to steroids. If you gave me steroids, I wouldn't be able to hit a 95mph fastball, or a MLB-level slider. Plenty of folks took juice and still didn't make it. B) Bonds and Clemens never failed a drug test. C) Steroids weren't illegal in MLB until after what, 2005? D) I know firsthand from a few AA, AAA, and even former MLB players that "a ton" of players were "all" on the juice, at all levels of professional baseball. The game wasn't clean, so it's difficult-- maybe even fool's gold-- to penalize folks like this. E) A notable difference is Manny Ramirez failing multiple drug test, obviously and openly, after it was deemed illegal, and repeatedly flaunting the rules. STILL, his talent is obviously hall-of-fame level.
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Post by timholycross on Jan 27, 2021 12:53:08 GMT -5
Re; Schilling, nothing to do with baseball other than his famous name opened some doors that wouldn't have been opened for others. Not being a baseball, Red Sox or a native Rhode Islander, I pretty much ignored this when it was all over the local news. My only connection was my boss' autistic son was going to work for Schilling's company that didn't get off the ground. Not sure if this issue is what might be keeping him out of the HOF but some locally felt he scammed them and the RI taxpayers. From wiki: I think it's been more his public statements about political issues that have caused controversy versus the handout which got squandered. 90-10 I'd say.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 27, 2021 12:55:17 GMT -5
Baseball talent-wise? My eyeballs say obviously Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling were HOFers. I feel like Rolen is close, but never "felt" like a HOFer... some dedicated Philly sportswriters say otherwise and that's okay. He's got the stats. Vizquel was phenomenal fielding, but again, never felt like an HOFer. Regarding the BBWAA acting like the morality police, first I say HAHAHAHA this is a child's game that men play in pajamas. Few athletes are worthy of our admiration for anything other than athletic feats. Second: A) You can't tell me that taking steroids makes you a better baseball player. Bonds and Clemens were awesome before they were even linked to steroids. If you gave me steroids, I wouldn't be able to hit a 95mph fastball, or a MLB-level slider. Plenty of folks took juice and still didn't make it. B) Bonds and Clemens never failed a drug test. C) Steroids weren't illegal in MLB until after what, 2005? D) I know firsthand from a few AA, AAA, and even former MLB players that "a ton" of players were "all" on the juice, at all levels of professional baseball. The game wasn't clean, so it's difficult-- maybe even fool's gold-- to penalize folks like this. E) A notable difference is Manny Ramirez failing multiple drug test, obviously and openly, after it was deemed illegal, and repeatedly flaunting the rules. STILL, his talent is obviously hall-of-fame level. Luis Gonzalez and Brady Anderson might disagree
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 27, 2021 13:07:21 GMT -5
Only Schilling and Kemp should have made it from this class. I agree with a small room for the Hall. But the Veterans committee has put to many very good players in. That it's to easy to say Player X is better than that Player Y who is in Cooperstown. KY it his political statements that have kept him out. He was suspended once and then fired by ESPN for these comments. ESPN has kept plenty of personalities and executives in Bristol who have done far worse things than Schilling. My guess is that voters don't like the fact he has written for Breitbart.
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Post by Tom on Jan 27, 2021 13:10:58 GMT -5
Baseball talent-wise? My eyeballs say obviously Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling were HOFers. I feel like Rolen is close, but never "felt" like a HOFer... some dedicated Philly sportswriters say otherwise and that's okay. He's got the stats. Vizquel was phenomenal fielding, but again, never felt like an HOFer. Regarding the BBWAA acting like the morality police, first I say HAHAHAHA this is a child's game that men play in pajamas. Few athletes are worthy of our admiration for anything other than athletic feats. Second: A) You can't tell me that taking steroids makes you a better baseball player. Bonds and Clemens were awesome before they were even linked to steroids. If you gave me steroids, I wouldn't be able to hit a 95mph fastball, or a MLB-level slider. Plenty of folks took juice and still didn't make it. t. C) Steroids weren't illegal in MLB until after what, 2005? You are correct. Steroids might not help you hit a 95 MPH fastball and plenty of people juice and don't make the big leagues. After you hit that 95 MPH fastball, steroids can be the difference between a warning track fly ball out and a home run I recently looked this up. Per ESPN, steroids became were banned from baseball in 1991
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 27, 2021 13:18:04 GMT -5
Baseball talent-wise? My eyeballs say obviously Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling were HOFers. I feel like Rolen is close, but never "felt" like a HOFer... some dedicated Philly sportswriters say otherwise and that's okay. He's got the stats. Vizquel was phenomenal fielding, but again, never felt like an HOFer. Regarding the BBWAA acting like the morality police, first I say HAHAHAHA this is a child's game that men play in pajamas. Few athletes are worthy of our admiration for anything other than athletic feats. Second: A) You can't tell me that taking steroids makes you a better baseball player. Bonds and Clemens were awesome before they were even linked to steroids. If you gave me steroids, I wouldn't be able to hit a 95mph fastball, or a MLB-level slider. Plenty of folks took juice and still didn't make it. t. C) Steroids weren't illegal in MLB until after what, 2005? You are correct. Steroids might not help you hit a 95 MPH fastball and plenty of people juice and don't make the big leagues. After you hit that 95 MPH fastball, steroids can be the difference between a warning track fly ball out and a home run I recently looked this up. Per ESPN, steroids became were banned from baseball in 1991 Colloquially, with your warning track to HR fly ball analogy, perhaps, but it was more about rest and recovery from training (which can admittedly add strength) versus the technique to hit a ball properly, launch angle, bat speed, etc. Think Alfonso Soriano is stronger than me when I clock in pushing 210 LBS? Hell no. Think he could hit a ball farther than me? Hell yes.
Steroids were banned, but MLB didn't test. I deem that beyond just ignorance, but implicit approval of the practice, as well as fear of the Players' Union if testing went full bore. But technically, if that's true, my 2005 date target is incorrect.
Worth maybe introducing here at the risk of getting further off the rails: I read something that said if somebody is ill or sick or has a mental disorder they're taking treatment for, we unleash the full pharmacology on them. I myself have taken steroids for asthma in the past, still have an albuterol inhaler... but athletes have a huge list of restricted drugs. If somebody is in a horrible car accident or tears something as a lay-person, they have lots of different drug cocktails a doctor might give them to get better. Why do athletes have to face the uphill climb? Why not let them take whatever their doctor says is safe? The MLB days of star players selling used cars in the offseason, and skyrocketing salaries have made this not a lay-persons' game. It's a year-round, dedicated, highly specialized activity.
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Post by thecrossisback on Jan 27, 2021 13:41:51 GMT -5
Schilling deserves to be in and does charity work as well. The 100 inning game for example. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Inning_GameTo say that Bonds and Clemens did not cheat is nonsense. Of course it gave them an advantage. Nobody forced them to take it.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 27, 2021 13:49:28 GMT -5
...but Mom, EVERYONE is doing it! Isn't that the level of some who defend taking PEDs? They were "pressured" to take it to keep up with "everyone."
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Post by Tom on Jan 27, 2021 14:35:03 GMT -5
Colloquially, with your warning track to HR fly ball analogy, perhaps, but it was more about rest and recovery from training (which can admittedly add strength) versus the technique to hit a ball properly, launch angle, bat speed, etc. Think Alfonso Soriano is stronger than me when I clock in pushing 210 LBS? Hell no. Think he could hit a ball farther than me? Hell yes.
Worth maybe introducing here at the risk of getting further off the rails: I read something that said if somebody is ill or sick or has a mental disorder they're taking treatment for, we unleash the full pharmacology on them. I myself have taken steroids for asthma in the past, still have an albuterol inhaler...
Well, I guess we can now safely say you will not be participating in the Olympics this summer Guys can work out more aggressively to get stronger because of the recovery advantage. Part of the advantage of the added strength is to have the same bat speed while using a heavier bat. If I used the same 42 oz bat Babe Ruth used, I would have trouble getting around on a 45 MPH fastball
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Post by newfieguy74 on Jan 27, 2021 14:57:09 GMT -5
Players are elected to the HOF based on the player's "record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team." Lots of ambiguity there. See Dan Shaughnessy's column in today's Globe for a discussion of Schilling. To me, Schilling's on field performance is worthy of the Hall, but I also find him to be a hateful, small-minded blowhard.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 27, 2021 15:02:09 GMT -5
You seem to be well acquainted with some of Shilling's many facets. Just in his ability (and personal courage in overcoming injury) I believe he rates the HoF. In terms of his personality,. not really...but I don't see personality on the list of factors for selection.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 27, 2021 15:26:41 GMT -5
Schilling is not a surprise to me - he's got the numbers and no evidence of steroids but he's said some controversial things that might rub some writers the wrong way to the extent of influencing their votes (but not all writers as he did get over 71% of the votes.)
Next year Ortiz will be very very interesting and might open the door up for a few other steroid guys.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 28, 2021 19:59:21 GMT -5
Schilling is not a surprise to me - he's got the numbers and no evidence of steroids but he's said some controversial things that might rub some writers the wrong way to the extent of influencing their votes (but not all writers as he did get over 71% of the votes.) Next year Ortiz will be very very interesting and might open the door up for a few other steroid guys.I've been saying for years that Ortiz will be the one to truly expose the hypocrisy of the writers. 100% he is getting in and HE SHUOLD GET IN. HE'S A HALL OF FAMER. Several years ago Edgar Martinez was inducted -- after years of being snubbed because he spent most of his career as a full-time DH. Because Ortiz faces the same dilemma, I believe the writers voted in Edgar in order to "grease the skids" for Big Papi. Now that the DH glass ceiling has been broken, only the "steroid using (or alleged steroid using) power hitter" glass ceiling remains. Remember Pedro Martinez took steroids and has already been voted in. Clemens unfortunately has been unable to follow his coattails. As ACTP said in the other thread, steroids are just an excuse for the writers to turn the HOF into a popularity contest. If people think you were a prick to the media, you ain't getting into the club.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 28, 2021 20:08:34 GMT -5
My thoughts on this year's class:
I view Schilling like I view Eli Manning in football. If not for his postseason pedigree, he'd be on the outside looking in. But his October performances with Arizona and Boston cement his should-be status in Cooperstown. Another thing that goes against Schilling -- he spent some of his most dominant years in the mid-to-late 1990's on bad Phillies teams. He was striking out 300 guys but going .500. If he spent those handful of seasons on the Mets, Braves or Astros, probably a different story.
Vizquel is a Hall of Famer. Maybe best ever at the most important defensive position in the game. And he played until like age 45. As someone who used to hate on compilers, I am now a 32-year old adult softball/hoops player who has a ton of respect for pro athletes a decade older than me playing at the highest level in the world. And Vizquel DID have some productive offensive seasons -- he hit in the 2 hole on one of the best offenses in baseball history, the 1998/1999 Cleveland Indians. Being maybe the best ever with the glove combined with like 2,800 hits = HOF in my opinion.
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