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Post by hcpride on Mar 17, 2021 7:24:15 GMT -5
/\ /\ I could imagine us giving up football as we joined the Big East for the reasons alum notes. Big time, and I mean really big time, hoops would have softened the blow.
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Post by Tom on Mar 17, 2021 7:43:59 GMT -5
The only way to comply with Title IX was to match those with women's scholarships and the only way to do that was by dropping men's scholarships. I believe to be compliant with Title IX you have to be progressing towards equality, Some major schools were adding one female scholarship per year and met the letter if not the spirit of Titlle IX. Taking the hit of Title IX and spreading it over decades made the financial impact less daunting
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 17, 2021 7:51:52 GMT -5
None of those Big East schools that dropped football had stadiums deserving to be characterized as such.
IMO, if Penn State had been allowed to join the Big East, that would have changed the equation. The problem with college hoops in New England in the 1970s, was that it wasn't a big draw, with several exceptions, e.g., Providence. I'll bet a few rubles that attendance at men's ice hockey at BC, BU, Harvard in the 70's was the equal of, or surpassed, attendance at men's hoops.
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bpob55
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 114
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Post by bpob55 on Mar 17, 2021 8:07:33 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting we would have been doormats in basketball, just every other men's sport. All would have been non scholarship in order to comply with Title IX. We could have competed in all sports by dropping football--as Nova did for a few years. As you know PC, St John's, Georgetown, Seton Hall all were non football schools at the time. I suppose we could have dropped a bunch of men's minor sports and kept football, but I imagine there was some minimum. Not true. St. John's, Georgetown and Seton Hall all had football programs when the Big East was founded. Seton Hall dropped out in 1982, St. John's in 2003. I would also dispute this idea that the Big East would force cutting sports. In fact, Georgetown has actually added three sports since 1980 (soccer, softball, squash). At the founding of the Big East, only two of its teams even had full-time coaches (men's basketball, men's track). Today, all 30 sports have full time coaches. Georgetown's endowment is 1.6 billion, compared to 900 million at HC. Georgetown's undergraduate enrollment is 7500 compared to 3000 at HC. This gives Georgetown a lot more money and recourses to devote to athletics. imo for the big east to be worth it for Holy Cross we would have to be nationally relevant in basketball, and for that to happen the basketball budget would have to be inflated tremendously. Where does that money come from? I'd say from cutting other sports.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Mar 17, 2021 10:30:31 GMT -5
1. Endowments have almost nothing to do with athletics. A restricted gift to a law school, for example, can't be devoted to basketball.
2. Georgetown's athletic expenses were $43 million in 2019, Holy Cross' $33 million. If you take men's basketball out of that equation, HC actually spends slightly more than Georgetown on its remaining sports.
3. These Big East threads get circular because HC has made no substantive effort to upgrade its basketball program to even be in contention for the Big East. By contrast, look at Xavier, who slowly but surely has been building its program for years. When an opening developed, they were in the consideration set.
In some ways, the Patriot League exists as a vehicle for college presidents to curry favor with the Ivies, as a platform to reduce pressure on athletics, and serves to protect the historic rivalries of Lehigh, Lafayette, and Colgate-- all of which are fine if that's the expectation set. Given its history, HC should be in the A-10 but the college has decided otherwise.
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Post by alum on Mar 17, 2021 11:08:47 GMT -5
1. Endowments have almost nothing to do with athletics. A restricted gift to a law school, for example, can't be devoted to basketball. ( I realize that, but with $10 million, there was no money to make mistakes.)2. Georgetown's athletic expenses were $43 million in 2019, Holy Cross' $33 million. If you take men's basketball out of that equation, HC actually spends slightly more than Georgetown on its remaining sports. ( Agree--60 football scholarships cost a lot. Again, however, we are talking about where the College was in the late 1970s)3. These Big East threads get circular because HC has made no substantive effort to upgrade its basketball program to even be in contention for the Big East. By contrast, look at Xavier, who slowly but surely has been building its program for years. When an opening developed, they were in the consideration set. ( Xavier proves my point-no football, no hockey, no lacrosse, and, FWIW, a 73% acceptance rate)In some ways, the Patriot League exists as a vehicle for college presidents to curry favor with the Ivies, as a platform to reduce pressure on athletics, and serves to protect the historic rivalries of Lehigh, Lafayette, and Colgate-- all of which are fine if that's the expectation set. Given its history, HC should be in the A-10 but the college has decided otherwise. I suspect that Father Brooks simply felt it was more important to keep football and an array of other sports than to join the BE. Other than the MLB, college hoops is my favorite sport. If HC had dropped football in the late 70s (before I got there) and joined the BE, I would not know what I had missed and would have enjoyed BE hoops for all of these years. I know others would have been unhappy about losing football.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Mar 17, 2021 12:01:17 GMT -5
To add to the discussion......At the beginning of the Big East, in 1981, Villanova dropped football. From Villanova Football Wikipedia “The Wildcats football team played their first game 127 years ago in November 1894 coached by Mike Murphy. They continued to play as an independent team for 87 seasons, [2][3] participating in several Bowl Games and sending numerous players into professional football, including Hall of Fame defensive end Howie Long, a second round selection in the 1981 NFL draft. On April 14, 1981, the program was officially disbanded due to weak attendance and monetary reasons cited by the university Board of Trustees.[2][3][4] Athletic Director Ted Aceto had stated they had sold only 750 season tickets for the 1980 season with 95 scholarship players; the Wildcats' 1980 season record was 6–5.[2]Under heavy pressure from alumni and students, the program was reinstated by the Board of Trustees in April 1984 and sponsored a sold out Blue-White intrasquad game for Homecoming that November. Led by head coach Andy Talley, they began playing a limited schedule of regulation NCAA games in September 1985.[5] The reborn program had instant success, beginning with an undefeated five-game schedule against Division III competition, and beating the Navy junior varsity. The program moved up to Division I-AA (now FCS) and joined the Yankee Conference in 1987, beginning official competition in 1988.” en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villanova_Wildcats_footballWonder if a certain school in Massachusetts would have had to have made a similar decision for financial reasons as Villanova? Fortunately for Villanova football fans the elimination was only four agonizing years. The article from the Lost Angeles Times provides insight into the decision. On a personal note, a high school teacher of mine, freshmen year English, is quoted in the article. Bob Capone, after he left my former high school became the Alumni Director at Villanova.www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-04-06-sp-25170-story.htmlAnyone remember the end of the 1987 season game between Holy Cross and Villanova that was broadcast on ESPN?
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Post by Crucis#1 on Mar 17, 2021 13:09:36 GMT -5
I am very happy that the Powers to Be, did not eliminate Football. Joining the Big East, particularly Big East 2, with charter jets for the basketball team, probably would have caused a number of sports to be eliminated. The cost of the charters probably takes a big portion of the TV revenue. Creighton University has only six men’s teams, the bare minimum for D1. Marquette has only seven men’s sports. Without HC football, I would be miserable during the late summer and fall. Soccer does not cut it, on a Saturday afternoon, and I played varsity high school soccer in a city with an extensive catholic league program. Creighton's soccer stadium is one of the top in the nation as it was built for 13 million in 2003. gocreighton.com/facilities/morrison-stadium/9They were able to get the UNC coach to leave Chapel Hill and go to Creighton. This article is from 2011 www.nytimes.com/2011/12/09/sports/soccer/bolowich-puts-creighton-in-college-cup-semifinals.htmlHe isn't there anymore but they are paying top money for their coaching staff. Yes, Morrison Stadium is a beautiful facility for field sports. I like the architecture. A larger version, at 2.5 times the size with seating on both sides as a remodeled Fitton Field, would be a model that I would like to see on Mt. St. James. The cost today would be substantially larger than 13 million dollars for construction in Worcester. Getting back to to my original point, Creighton has only six men’s sports, Baseball...that plays off campus at TD Ameritrade Park, Basketball ....that plays off campus at the CHI Health Center Arena, Cross Country... occurs at the Skutt Catholic High School Athletic Complex, Golf.... At the Omaha Country Club, Soccer...on campus at Morrison Stadium, and Tennis.... off campus at the Koch Family Tennis Center, or the Hanscom Indoor Tennis Center. For men, Creighton does not sponsor, Ice Hockey, Football, Lacrosse, Rowing, Swimming, Fencing, Volleyball, Wrestling or Track and Field. For women, Creighton sponsors Basketball...played on campus at Sokol Arena, seating 2,950, Cross Country.. off campus at Skutt, Golf... at Omaha Country Club, Rowing...off campus at Carter Lake, near the Omaha Airport, Soccer....on campus at Morrison Stadium, Softball ... on campus at the Creighton Sports Complex, Tennis.... off campus at Koch Family Tennis Center or at Hanscom Indoor, Volleyball at Sokol Arena The only on campus facility for men’s sports is Morrison Stadium. All other men’s sports are relegated to facilities that students do not have immediate close access to attend. My point in citing Creighton, ......Creighton does not not have a robust, full scale men’s or women’s athletic program, and their on campus varsity athletic venue for men’s sports is only one facility. For women, there is Sokol, Morrison and the Softball Complex. Creighton sponsors the minimum required for D1 membership at 14. Membership in the Big East for Basketball, comes at a cost for many schools, that requires the non sponsorship or elimination of many Olympic and non Olympic sports.
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Post by princetoncrusader on Mar 17, 2021 15:28:53 GMT -5
Yes I recall watching the HC-Nova game on ESPN on a thursday night. HC won rather easily and if I recall, and Coach Duffner was carried off the field by his joyful players. I don't think Nova had a full compliment of scholarships at that point.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Mar 17, 2021 15:47:01 GMT -5
Yes I recall watching the HC-Nova game on ESPN on a thursday night. HC won rather easily and if I recall, and Coach Duffner was carried off the field by his joyful players. I don't think Nova had a full compliment of scholarships at that point. In central Connecticut, we had a viewing party with the local Villanova alumni club, in a movie theatre that also was a restaurant. The game was projected onto their large screen. We had an attendance over 125 people. It was a fun evening. It was also Gordie’s last game, as we were no longer allowed to go the the FCS playoffs.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 17, 2021 21:19:30 GMT -5
1. Endowments have almost nothing to do with athletics. A restricted gift to a law school, for example, can't be devoted to basketball. 2. Georgetown's athletic expenses were $43 million in 2019, Holy Cross' $33 million. If you take men's basketball out of that equation, HC actually spends slightly more than Georgetown on its remaining sports. 3. These Big East threads get circular because HC has made no substantive effort to upgrade its basketball program to even be in contention for the Big East. By contrast, look at Xavier, who slowly but surely has been building its program for years. When an opening developed, they were in the consideration set. In some ways, the Patriot League exists as a vehicle for college presidents to curry favor with the Ivies, as a platform to reduce pressure on athletics, and serves to protect the historic rivalries of Lehigh, Lafayette, and Colgate-- all of which are fine if that's the expectation set. Given its history, HC should be in the A-10 but the college has decided otherwise. Nice analysis of why the PL exists. But doesn't it also protect historic rivalries for Bucknell? They must have played LU, LC and CU over the years due to proximity. I think of those four schools as the core of the PL, but feel they have always been thankful to have HC as a league member.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 17, 2021 21:23:52 GMT -5
Yes, Morrison Stadium is a beautiful facility for field sports. I like the architecture. A larger version, at 2.5 times the size with seating on both sides as a remodeled Fitton Field, would be a model that I would like to see on Mt. St. James. The cost today would be substantially larger than 13 million dollars for construction in Worcester. Getting back to to my original point, Creighton has only six men’s sports, Baseball...that plays off campus at TD Ameritrade Park, Basketball ....that plays off campus at the CHI Health Center Arena, Cross Country... occurs at the Skutt Catholic High School Athletic Complex, Golf.... At the Omaha Country Club, Soccer...on campus at Morrison Stadium, and Tennis.... off campus at the Koch Family Tennis Center, or the Hanscom Indoor Tennis Center. For men, Creighton does not sponsor, Ice Hockey, Football, Lacrosse, Rowing, Swimming, Fencing, Volleyball, Wrestling or Track and Field. For women, Creighton sponsors Basketball...played on campus at Sokol Arena, seating 2,500, Cross Country.. of campus at Skutt, Golf... at Omaha Country Club, Rowing...off campus at Carter Lake, near the Omaha Airport, Soccer....on campus at Morrison Stadium, Softball ... on campus at the Creighton Sports Complex, Tennis.... off campus at Koch Family Tennis Center or at Hanscom Indoor, Volleyball at Sokol Arena The only on campus facility for men’s sports is Morrison Stadium. All other men’s sports are relegated to facilities that students do not have immediate close access to attend. My point in citing Creighton, ......Creighton does not not have a robust, full scale men’s or women’s athletic program, and their on campus varsity athletic venue for men’s sports is only one facility. For women, there is Sokol, Morrison and the Softball Complex. Creighton sponsors the minimum required for D1 membership at 14. Membership in the Big East for Basketball, comes at a cost for many schools, that requires the non sponsorship or elimination of many Olympic and non Olympic sports. In other words, other than the overall won/loss record, Holy Cross has a fabulous athletic program.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Mar 17, 2021 22:07:58 GMT -5
Nice analysis of why the PL exists. But doesn't it also protect historic rivalries for Bucknell? They must have played LU, LC and CU over the years due to proximity. I think of those four schools as the core of the PL, but feel they have always been thankful to have HC as a league member. Yes, let's add them as well. Prior to the PL, Bucknell had played Lafayette regularly since the early 1940's and Colgate and Lehigh since the early 1950's.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Mar 17, 2021 22:10:22 GMT -5
HC has a very robust program, with multiple on campus competition venues in its portfolio.
Outdoors there are 8 varsity competition venues: Freshmen Field, Fitton Field, Hanover Insurance Park at Fitton Field, Sinnott Family Tennis Facility, Fr. K. Field, Hart Turf Field and Hart Track, Linda Johnson Smith Soccer Stadium, and the Field for Hammer, Discus and Javelin next to the Soccer Stadium.
Indoors there are 4 varsity competition venues: Hart Center Arena, Hart Center Rink, Hart Center Pool and George Blaney Gym. A total of 12 varsity competition venues on one contiguous parcel of land accessible by all students in walking distance. Add in the Soccer Practice field next to Fr. K field and the Indoor Practice Field in the Luth Athletic Complex, and the 9,500 Sq Ft. Carol and Park B. Smith Sports Performance Center, Holy Cross has an enormous athletic plant on campus in comparison to a vast majority of schools. Granted, some of the facilities need enhancements and remodeling: Fr. K, Fitton and Freshmen Field, but that will come when the funds have been raised and allocated. I appreciate what is available to our varsity athletes, all within walking distance from their dorms. Additionally, for non varsity athletics, there is the brand new, just officially opened this month, 50,000 Sq Ft “Jo”, for recreation and wellness.
Holy Cross has a very robust athletic program. Once we start taking home multiple Patriot League Championships each year, then Holy Cross Athletics will be Fabulous. 🤣
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Post by HCFC45 on Mar 18, 2021 6:50:56 GMT -5
HC has a very robust program, with multiple on campus competition venues in its portfolio. Outdoors there are 8 varsity competition venues: Freshmen Field, Fitton Field, Hanover Insurance Park at Fitton Field, Sinnott Family Tennis Facility, Fr. K. Field, Hart Turf Field and Hart Track, Linda Johnson Smith Soccer Stadium, and the Field for Hammer, Discus and Javelin next to the Soccer Stadium. Indoors there are 4 varsity competition venues: Hart Center Arena, Hart Center Rink, Hart Center Pool and George Blaney Gym. A total of 12 varsity competition venues on one contiguous parcel of land accessible by all students in walking distance. Add in the Soccer Practice field next to Fr. K field and the Indoor Practice Field in the Luth Athletic Complex, and the 9,500 Sq Ft. Carol and Park B. Smith Sports Performance Center, Holy Cross has an enormous athletic plant on campus in comparison to a vast majority of schools. Granted, some of the facilities need enhancements and remodeling: Fr. K, Fitton and Freshmen Field, but that will come when the funds have been raised and allocated. I appreciate what is available to our varsity athletes, all within walking distance from their dorms. Additionally, for non varsity athletics, there is the brand new, just officially opened this month, 50,000 Sq Ft “Jo”, for recreation and wellness. Holy Cross has a very robust athletic program. Once we start taking home multiple Patriot League Championships each year, then Holy Cross Athletics will be Fabulous. 🤣 Crucis#1, I think you left out one. Though I don't think it has a "name" yet, I'm sure HC will gladly give the person who ponies up $50,000.00 the naming rights.... Also, found this new addition on the East side of the Luth alongside the indoor football area. Was told that it was put in to give students an outdoor area to skate on during Covid. Banners and benches will be added by next weekend for its unveiling. Was told that the "ice" skating area will be 30' by 60' and is a synthetic substance called polycarbonate.
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Post by Tom on Mar 18, 2021 7:25:19 GMT -5
I did not know that. Cool thing to have
Queue the chem majors to explain to us how inverse pressure-state relations allow you to skate on a small number of non-ice surfaces
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 18, 2021 8:48:56 GMT -5
Are you talking about the pressure of the skate blade creating a thin layer of water between the ice and the blade so you're technically skating on water not ice? Always thought that more physics than chemistry. Either way, I believe that the hypothesis about pressure and water between the blade and the ice has been refined quite a bit. See this article from December 2005 in Physics Today, which, I think, technically makes the journal Physics 15 & a Half Years Ago! www.asc.ohio-state.edu/jayaprakash.1/846/skating.pdf
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Post by WCHC Sports on Mar 18, 2021 8:52:40 GMT -5
Just need water. Even with real ice, you're not skating on the ice-- you're hydroplaning on the water on top of the ice. You know, constant ice-water-ice-water transition equilibrium. And Poly Sci major here.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Mar 18, 2021 9:52:16 GMT -5
I heard there is a name for the new rink. It will be called the HCFC45 Pond at the Luth Athletic Complex. 😊
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Post by HCFC45 on Mar 19, 2021 5:18:00 GMT -5
I heard there is a name for the new rink. It will be called the HCFC45 Pond at the Luth Athletic Complex. 😊 I would prefer the "HCFC45 Outdoor Skating, Enjoyment and Relaxation Area" at the Luth Athletic Complex but do not hold your breath waiting for the $50K donation!
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 19, 2021 7:16:28 GMT -5
$50,000 donation has been received from a Mr. Jed Clampett of California. The skating area will be named the "Jethro and Ellie May Cee-ment Pond".
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