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Post by hcpride on Dec 4, 2021 15:37:37 GMT -5
Actually, in some respects, we won this year on an uneven playing field, which speaks to the tremendous job BC has done with the program. That said, I graduated in the 1980s, and the decisions made decimated our program (and student/local interest) and did nothing to advance our “goals and values.” By the way, if dropping athletic scholarships back then aligned with our “values,” did bringing them back somehow undermine those values and distort our goals? If you look at the latest NCAA graduation rates, the idea that schools like VU and other well regarded colleges have stopped “valuing academics” in their pursuit of athlete success is a myth. I certainly wouldn’t put athletics as the top challenge to academic integrity at many higher ed institutions nowadays. Certainly agree. BC’s academic reputation didn’t nosedive during and after the Flutie years. Quite the contrary. Nova’s hoops has excelled and they too have passed us by. And our academic reputation during the high-flying Carter/Duffner years was stronger then than now. On a somewhat related topic, the entire playoff broadcast last night functioned as an advertisement for the academic and athletic excellence of Holy Cross and its football players. The announcers could not have been more complimentary of our wonderful school. And if we are not in the playoffs that broadcast and those words don’t happen. |
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 4, 2021 15:55:24 GMT -5
Actually, in some respects, we won this year on an uneven playing field, which speaks to the tremendous job BC has done with the program. That said, I graduated in the 1980s, and the decisions made decimated our program (and student/local interest) and did nothing to advance our “goals and values.” By the way, if dropping athletic scholarships back then aligned with our “values,” did bringing them back somehow undermine those values and distort our goals? If you look at the latest NCAA graduation rates, the idea that schools like VU and other well regarded colleges have stopped “valuing academics” in their pursuit of athlete success is a myth. I certainly wouldn’t put athletics as the top challenge to academic integrity at many higher ed institutions nowadays. Certainly agree. BC’s academic reputation didn’t nosedive during and after the Flutie years. Quite the contrary. Nova’s hoops has excelled and they too have passed us by. And our academic reputation during the high-flying Carter/Duffner years was stronger then than now. On a somewhat related topic, the entire playoff broadcast last night functioned as an advertisement for the academic and athletic excellence of Holy Cross and its football players. The announcers could not have been more complimentary of our wonderful school. And if we are not in the playoffs that broadcast and those words don’t happen. I wondered if the announcers selling of the HC mystique (high academic, small liberal arts undergraduate only, FCS football power) is a result of Coach Chesney being a master marketer in addition to his other strengths? Perhaps 60 year old Coach Ferrante of Villanova is in a positive but different position at Villanova and the ebullience of Coach Chesney just rubbed off on the broadcasting team? Either that or our S.I.D. Sir Charles Bare did a heck of a job. |
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Post by cruskater31 on Dec 4, 2021 15:57:51 GMT -5
I am dad we have to wait so long for more Holy Cross football. What an exciting season! Now we have to endure the winter doldrums that are our basketball and hockey programs.
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Post by gks on Dec 4, 2021 15:59:54 GMT -5
There is absolutely nothing in his background that suggests he’d be a strong (or even mediocre) candidate for either a head offensive or head defensive coordinator at a Power 5 school. There are avenues of advancement towards a big school head coach position for Chesney, just not that one. Another poster thought he could try to take the Moorehead route from PL to big time …completely different bio since the former quarterback had served as a very successful FBS offensive coordinator prior to success as HC at Fordham. I know Kelly’s had some well-publicized issues bringing ND staffers to LSU but can’t see a realistic role for BC on the staff (even if BC was willing to consider a non-head coach move). I do agree his stock is very high right now - and surely he knows it may never be higher (a 4th PL title with a winning record and a first round win won’t move him any higher …and lots can easily happen next year to kill his stock). The only potential job Chesney could take on a 1-A staff is Special Teams Coordinator. Interestingly enough, the individual who previously had that role for Kelly at ND is supposedly the next Head Coach at Lafayette Absolutely incorrect. One example is Maine head coach leaving Orono in 2018 to become Defensive Coordinator at Minnesota. |
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 4, 2021 16:02:24 GMT -5
I am dad we have to wait so long for more Holy Cross football. What an exciting season! Now we have to endure the winter doldrums that are our basketball and hockey programs. We'll have to enjoy a good "hot stove league" on the football thread.😊 |
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Post by mm67 on Dec 4, 2021 16:03:45 GMT -5
Actually, in some respects, we won this year on an uneven playing field, which speaks to the tremendous job BC has done with the program. That said, I graduated in the 1980s, and the decisions made decimated our program (and student/local interest) and did nothing to advance our “goals and values.” By the way, if dropping athletic scholarships back then aligned with our “values,” did bringing them back somehow undermine those values and distort our goals? If you look at the latest NCAA graduation rates, the idea that schools like VU and other well regarded colleges have stopped “valuing academics” in their pursuit of athlete success is a myth. I certainly wouldn’t put athletics as the top challenge to academic integrity at many higher ed institutions nowadays.ome of our OOC opponents. PL we al play by the same rules unlike the '80's
I assume the uneven playing field references some games against OOC opponents. Obviously, PL teams all play by the same rules unlike the Colonial League in the '80's.Peace. |
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Villanova
Dec 4, 2021 16:07:21 GMT -5
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 4, 2021 16:07:21 GMT -5
Actually, in some respects, we won this year on an uneven playing field, which speaks to the tremendous job BC has done with the program. That said, I graduated in the 1980s, and the decisions made decimated our program (and student/local interest) and did nothing to advance our “goals and values.” By the way, if dropping athletic scholarships back then aligned with our “values,” did bringing them back somehow undermine those values and distort our goals? If you look at the latest NCAA graduation rates, the idea that schools like VU and other well regarded colleges have stopped “valuing academics” in their pursuit of athlete success is a myth. I certainly wouldn’t put athletics as the top challenge to academic integrity at many higher ed institutions nowadays.ome of our OOC opponents. PL we al play by the same rules unlike the '80's
I assume the uneven playing field references some games against OOC opponents. Obviously, PL teams all play by the same rules unlike the Colonial League in the '80's.Peace. We were undefeated against the other league members who play with the same restrictions. GU plays with more restrictions but that's their choice. |
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Villanova
Dec 4, 2021 16:34:04 GMT -5
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Post by hcpride on Dec 4, 2021 16:34:04 GMT -5
The only potential job Chesney could take on a 1-A staff is Special Teams Coordinator. Interestingly enough, the individual who previously had that role for Kelly at ND is supposedly the next Head Coach at Lafayette Absolutely incorrect. One example is Maine head coach leaving Orono in 2018 to become Defensive Coordinator at Minnesota. Maine is CAA (Chesney is PL). Plus, he was one of the defensive assistants at Minnesota and has since moved up to co-defensive coordinator. Funny enough, the current Maine coach is heading to UConn as Head Offensive Coordinator. That aside, there certainly may have been rare instances of PL head coaches leaving to become Power 5 Coordinators. (Moorhead is one but, as noted, his resume was vastly different -including previous FBS head offensive coordinator experience - in comparison to BC). |
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Post by mm67 on Dec 4, 2021 16:42:33 GMT -5
The concern about the distortion in goals and values was "among the students" and may I add alums from that era.
I assume the uneven playing field references some games against OOC opponents. Obviously, PL teams all play by the same rules unlike the Colonial League in the '80's.Peace. We were undefeated against the other league members who play with the same restrictions. GU plays with more restrictions but that's their choice. Yep, undefeated in the PL. And, this year we competed against other PL teams on an even playing field under the same rules. It was a wonderful achievement. |
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 4, 2021 18:27:47 GMT -5
The only potential job Chesney could take on a 1-A staff is Special Teams Coordinator. Interestingly enough, the individual who previously had that role for Kelly at ND is supposedly the next Head Coach at Lafayette Absolutely incorrect. One example is Maine head coach leaving Orono in 2018 to become Defensive Coordinator at Minnesota. Yeah and Joe Moorhead left Fordham to be the OC at Penn State. Neither has any commonality with Chesney. Chesney has somewhere between 1-3 years of DC experience at the D3 level. That’s the extent of his coordinator experience. Nobody is hiring him to run either their offensive or defensive unit. Special Teams Coordinator/Assistant Head Coach would be his only potential role besides Head Coach at this point. |
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Post by Crucis#1 on Dec 4, 2021 19:10:09 GMT -5
Don't worry about Dobbs coming back. He tells me it is his ankle (a sprain) and feels he's got plenty of time to get healthy. He is absolutely coming back to Holy Cross next season and has high expectations for the team. I know of others coming back as it seems this season has whet their appetites for even greater success. A combination of the way he plays, as well as looking at Jacob on the sideline yesterday evening, reminded me of the late Tommy Nobis, who played for Texas, and the Atlanta Falcolns. 😊 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Nobis |
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Post by spenser on Dec 4, 2021 19:11:17 GMT -5
If ok with you I’d like to meld your first two points.... Chesney may/should have performance bonuses on his existing contract so your point 1 may/should be covered. I think we agree that Chesney deserves a new 5-year contract. Of course we don’t know if Delaware or anyone else has/will shortly be contacting him....how could we? But that’s the risk when you know he’s well known and highly thought of in the coaching biz. Can’t wait until January or whenever a new AD surfaces to resign Chesney. As we’ve seen in the last 10 days, these deals move more quickly than ever these days. Lastly, your point 3....doubling staff salaries Do you honestly believe that would ever happen at HC? The AI, having less than the maximum allowed scholarships, no grad transfers and few if any JUCO transfers are major program negatives. The HC job is a stepping stone/short term destination. Look at Villanova....how long has that coach been there making more $$ than Chesney? I get your comments and on point 3 --my understanding??? is Chesney and the staff are paid less than hoops by a wide margin. A doubling is doable The rest are negatives we live with. Being one of the best 1AA options/jobs in my mind is being well paid, recruiting kids that are coachable, don't require babysitting for maintaining strong academic records, and a chance to compete for league championships and NCAA Playoffs. So it could be a stepping stone, it might be a career, but it means if and when Chesney leaves we can be very selective when picking a new coach. VERY selective!! |
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Post by mm67 on Dec 4, 2021 19:43:18 GMT -5
Didn't Coach Chesney, the Great signal his intent by stating"If someone wants to give you... who's to say no..." It was an obvious BIG HINT. He was giving the HC Administration AD, President & Board of Trustees the following message: Pay me & mt staff what the market says we're worth or else I'm out. We need modern, progressive ( certainly not political in any way) leadership at the top.
Be bold, not timid.. Don't listen to the bespectacled bean counters. They don't know the difference between a football & basketball.
Pay the man and his staff. Or else, he's gone along with his staff. More failure is sure to follow. You don't throw out a diamond..And, cover TitleIX too.
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Post by bfoley82 on Dec 4, 2021 21:24:01 GMT -5
Regarding Chesney and his future - to me right now the most realistic job is Delaware. Great conference, great stadium, solid roster that is 8 months removed from the National Semi Finals. And the job pays 400k+ I’ve gone on the Delaware football board and his name is not at the top of the list by their alum. Ryan Canty - Sam Houston OC and Delaware alum tops their list. Delawares biggest issue is offense right now. And the Sam Houston State Head Coach was fired at Delaware for not winning enough. |
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Post by bfoley82 on Dec 4, 2021 21:29:55 GMT -5
Absolutely incorrect. One example is Maine head coach leaving Orono in 2018 to become Defensive Coordinator at Minnesota. Yeah and Joe Moorhead left Fordham to be the OC at Penn State. Neither has any commonality with Chesney. Chesney has somewhere between 1-3 years of DC experience at the D3 level. That’s the extent of his coordinator experience. Nobody is hiring him to run either their offensive or defensive unit. Special Teams Coordinator/Assistant Head Coach would be his only potential role besides Head Coach at this point. The Holy Cross OC which lasted about a month that Chesney hired went to the Rams as Assistant WR Coach and is now the OC at Kentucky. The connection between Kelly and Chesney is there based on the field at Assumption being named after Kelly when BC was there. |
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 4, 2021 21:40:50 GMT -5
The concern about the distortion in goals and values was "among the students" and may I add alums from that era.
I assume the uneven playing field references some games against OOC opponents. Obviously, PL teams all play by the same rules unlike the Colonial League in the '80's.Peace. We were undefeated against the other league members who play with the same restrictions. GU plays with more restrictions but that's their choice. Georgetown's most significant restriction is trying to recruit with the highest AI in the league, not scholarships. If it had 60 scholarships tomorrow, the PL rule still limits the ability to recruit, and it's entirely likely Georgetown does no better with 60 grants than they do today, if the talent pool remains so narrow. Why spend $6 million to be no better than Bucknell? |
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Villanova
Dec 4, 2021 22:11:50 GMT -5
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 4, 2021 22:11:50 GMT -5
We were undefeated against the other league members who play with the same restrictions. GU plays with more restrictions but that's their choice. Georgetown's most significant restriction is trying to recruit with the highest AI in the league, not scholarships. If it had 60 scholarships tomorrow, the PL rule still limits the ability to recruit, and it's entirely likely Georgetown does no better with 60 grants than they do today, if the talent pool remains so narrow. Why spend $6 million to be no better than Bucknell? So because the admissions standards are higher at Georgetown than all other PL football schools, a talented FB applicant that GU has to reject can possibly be accepted at one or all of the other league schools within their lower AIs? But if the same kid was a McDonald's all American basketball player or great soccer player, GU could accept him? Perhaps that hypothetical football player should sue the PL. Can the hypothetical kid still attend GU and be in the band but not on the football team? Does GU Admissions actually send out letters saying you are accepted but banned from playing football? Confusing but fascinating. |
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Post by hc87 on Dec 4, 2021 22:13:02 GMT -5
The AI should be standard for all PL schools. Meaning every school should have the same standard/bar, not different ones for different schools.
Beating a dead horse but the league should allow the max in FCS scholarships (63 not 60) and allow for a less restrictive red-shirt policy.
Holy Cross this year (and Colgate a few years back), showed that a pretty good PL team can be competitive with the better programs at the FCS-level but in many ways, "the stars have to align" in just the right way for that to happen. Having all the resources that are allowed at the FCS-level will make PL teams like HC 2021 or Colgate 2018 less the anomaly and more the norm going forward.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 4, 2021 22:36:23 GMT -5
1. So because the admissions standards are higher at Georgetown than all other PL football schools, a talented FB applicant that GU has to reject can possibly be accepted at one or all of the other league schools within their lower AIs? 2. But if the same kid was a McDonald's all American basketball player or great soccer player, GU could accept him? Perhaps that hypothetical football player should sue the PL. 3. Can the hypothetical kid still attend GU and be in the band but not on the football team? Does GU Admissions actually send out letters saying you are accepted but banned from playing football? Confusing but fascinating. 1. Yes and no. There are kids recruited by Georgetown that would be in their low band, but may be a high-band kid at Fordham, for example. Potentially, that kid is more recruitable at other PL schools because it falls in a band where more recruits can be accepted. For example, Holy Cross has two in the low band but have four tremendous recruits that want to come there. Per PL rules, they can only take two regardless if they were admittable or not so that the mean is within one standard deviation of the SAT median. 2. There is no banding in the Big East rules, so other teams (esp. scholarship teams) can recruit regardless of how many they can recruit with that GPA/SAT combo. 3. That's an interesting question which some Crossports posters may be more familiar with, but it was my understanding that all PL recruiting lists are reviewed with the league office to prevent a person from joining a team without going through the index process. Admissions letters are irrespective of sports participation. And since there is no scholarship involved, someone could be admitted at Georgetown through football, be accepted, and then quit the team, because their aid is not dependent on playing the sport. (It's happened.) The bizarro world of this is that the same recruit that has to go through a gauntlet at Patriot schools can be admitted at every other playoff-eligible FCS school. The PL is the only playoff conference that places this weight on SAT scores as a measure of competitive parity, esp. in an era where fewer students nationwide are even required to take the SAT. |
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 4, 2021 22:57:49 GMT -5
Bizarro and skirting an ethical line if a league prevents an admitted student from participating in a student activity the student is funding with his tuition and fees.
Perhaps the PL AI will collapse under the weight of it's own absurdity, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Villanova
Dec 4, 2021 23:29:22 GMT -5
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Post by inhocsigno on Dec 4, 2021 23:29:22 GMT -5
We were undefeated against the other league members who play with the same restrictions. GU plays with more restrictions but that's their choice. Georgetown's most significant restriction is trying to recruit with the highest AI in the league, not scholarships. If it had 60 scholarships tomorrow, the PL rule still limits the ability to recruit, and it's entirely likely Georgetown does no better with 60 grants than they do today, if the talent pool remains so narrow. Why spend $6 million to be no better than Bucknell? BS - AI hurts all PL teams vs name recognition of Ivies. Allan Iverson would like a word; not written obviously. |
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Post by hc87 on Dec 4, 2021 23:48:48 GMT -5
Looks like it would have been a rematch with our Jackrabbit friends....up 24-13 late against our Sacramento friends....
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Post by timholycross on Dec 5, 2021 0:33:29 GMT -5
The great success of the golden'80's were an outlier. No doubt they were aided in part of a relatively soft Coloni al League schedule of scholarship HC against non-scholarship basically Div II teams, Bucknell, etc. We had a big advantage against our Colonial League foes. Some said our scholarships for 5 years were a away to smooth the transition to non-scholarship football. HC did win some games against the few scholarship teams we played. But, HC was spared the rigors of a full slate against scholarship teams. No doubt the results would have been markedly different. HC did lose to scholarship W. Carolina in the playoffs. No excuses notwithstanding the loss of Fenerty due to injury At the time some of us exultant alums nonetheless were concerned about the distortion in goals & values among the HC students. We worried that some would never be satisfied with less gaudy W-L records. Some would believe if HC did it in the 80's, we could do it again and again and again.. This thinking was entirely unrelated to the facts and unrealistic.Thus valuing academics would become secondary to our goals of athletics success. Naturally, as the benefits of scholarships ended our records fell more in line with our past. Today, no amount of success satisfies some.Possibly, some subconsciously compare our successes and failures to the glorious but advantaged teams of the 80's. This year's team was 10-3 and won the first post season game in the school's history. HC won on an even playing field unlike the teams of the'80's. But, some continue to condescendingly criticize rather than recognizing and enjoying the tremendous accomplishments of this team. You're kind of off about your timeframe. PL play started in 1986. The Carter teams had none of the advantages that you list, had a great season in 82, made the playoffs in 83; and would have in 84 had we not decided that the BC game was more important (scheduling conflict made playing them AND playing in the playoffs impossible). |
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Post by mm67 on Dec 5, 2021 5:28:07 GMT -5
The great success of the golden'80's were an outlier. No doubt they were aided in part of a relatively soft Coloni al League schedule of scholarship HC against non-scholarship basically Div II teams, Bucknell, etc. We had a big advantage against our Colonial League foes. Some said our scholarships for 5 years were a away to smooth the transition to non-scholarship football. HC did win some games against the few scholarship teams we played. But, HC was spared the rigors of a full slate against scholarship teams. No doubt the results would have been markedly different. HC did lose to scholarship W. Carolina in the playoffs. No excuses notwithstanding the loss of Fenerty due to injury At the time some of us exultant alums nonetheless were concerned about the distortion in goals & values among the HC students. We worried that some would never be satisfied with less gaudy W-L records. Some would believe if HC did it in the 80's, we could do it again and again and again.. This thinking was entirely unrelated to the facts and unrealistic.Thus valuing academics would become secondary to our goals of athletics success. Naturally, as the benefits of scholarships ended our records fell more in line with our past. Today, no amount of success satisfies some.Possibly, some subconsciously compare our successes and failures to the glorious but advantaged teams of the 80's. This year's team was 10-3 and won the first post season game in the school's history. HC won on an even playing field unlike the teams of the'80's. But, some continue to condescendingly criticize rather than recognizing and enjoying the tremendous accomplishments of this team. You're kind of off about your timeframe. PL play started in 1986. The Carter teams had none of the advantages that you list, had a great season in 82, made the playoffs in 83; and would have in 84 had we not decided that the BC game was more important (scheduling conflict made playing them AND playing in the playoffs impossible). Correction duly noted. Will delete. Thank you, |
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Villanova
Dec 5, 2021 5:58:01 GMT -5
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Post by hcpride on Dec 5, 2021 5:58:01 GMT -5
The great success of the golden'80's were an outlier. No doubt they were aided in part of a relatively soft Coloni al League schedule of scholarship HC against non-scholarship basically Div II teams, Bucknell, etc. We had a big advantage against our Colonial League foes. Some said our scholarships for 5 years were a away to smooth the transition to non-scholarship football. HC did win some games against the few scholarship teams we played. But, HC was spared the rigors of a full slate against scholarship teams. No doubt the results would have been markedly different. HC did lose to scholarship W. Carolina in the playoffs. No excuses notwithstanding the loss of Fenerty due to injury At the time some of us exultant alums nonetheless were concerned about the distortion in goals & values among the HC students. We worried that some would never be satisfied with less gaudy W-L records. Some would believe if HC did it in the 80's, we could do it again and again and again.. This thinking was entirely unrelated to the facts and unrealistic.Thus valuing academics would become secondary to our goals of athletics success. Naturally, as the benefits of scholarships ended our records fell more in line with our past. Today, no amount of success satisfies some.Possibly, some subconsciously compare our successes and failures to the glorious but advantaged teams of the 80's. This year's team was 10-3 and won the first post season game in the school's history. HC won on an even playing field unlike the teams of the'80's. But, some continue to condescendingly criticize rather than recognizing and enjoying the tremendous accomplishments of this team. You're kind of off about your timeframe. PL play started in 1986. The Carter teams had none of the advantages that you list, had a great season in 82, made the playoffs in 83; and would have in 84 had we not decided that the BC game was more important (scheduling conflict made playing them AND playing in the playoffs impossible). I’ve made this same correction numerous times to this poster. Gill Fenerty piled up those yards, Kozerski dominated those lines, Muldoon starred at QB, Bill McGovern picked off those passes, and Carter racked up those wins in the 1980’s before we joined the Colonial/Patriot league. Again, none of them competed in the Colonial/Patriot League. A couple of them were drafted and played well in the National Football League. Highest 1-AA ranking reached during the season:1982 - #6, 1983 - #1, 1984 - #2. |
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