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Post by crusader1970 on Dec 13, 2021 22:04:41 GMT -5
Albany (2-7) just knocked off BC 61-57 at Chestnut Hill.
Key factor in second half was Albany switching to a 2-3 zone which held BC scoreless for almost 4 minutes.
Amazing what good coaching and switching defenses will do.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Dec 13, 2021 22:14:20 GMT -5
What's a difense?
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Post by dadominate on Dec 14, 2021 9:05:19 GMT -5
i remember when we used to win games like this on occasion. for that matter, i also remember when we used to win games, period.
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Post by fillfittonfield on Dec 14, 2021 10:43:21 GMT -5
I wrote about the topic of zone v M2M during the Siena game (see below) but it got overlooked. Would love to hear from some folks who have watched this team closely over the years and get their feedback. I’ve been surprised that we haven’t even fooled around with a little bit of zone D during the Nelson tenure.
Siena Game Day Honest question for posters that have watched this team closely over the last 3 years.
Have we played zone defense at all during the Nelson tenure?
I’m not here to start a debate or conversation about the benefits/drawbacks of one D over another. I know Nelson is a M2M guy fundamentally, and that’s fine.
I’m just curious if we have ever tried to mix it up at all during his tenure. Again, honest question and not trying to push an agenda.
I haven’t watched all of the games during Nelson’s tenure, but I’ve watched at least 80% of them (yes, there is something wrong with me and I need to get out more). I’ve personally have never seen them switch out of their core D.
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Post by purplehaze on Dec 14, 2021 11:07:36 GMT -5
There is a big difference between your ordinary zone and the Willard match-up zone - the latter was very complicated and took most players until their soph year to get a handle on it - IMO, our team’s issues go far beyond switching defenses to gain an advantage
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Post by joe on Dec 14, 2021 11:07:44 GMT -5
Great coaches have advocated the use of constantly changing defenses, matchup zones, etc. to keep your opponent off guard and make it hard for them to scout. Imagine the defensive genius in the days before the shot clock. Go watch Rollie’s teams in the early to mid 80s.
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Post by lou on Dec 14, 2021 11:55:18 GMT -5
I wrote about the topic of zone v M2M during the Siena game (see below) but it got overlooked. Would love to hear from some folks who have watched this team closely over the years and get their feedback. I’ve been surprised that we haven’t even fooled around with a little bit of zone D during the Nelson tenure. Siena Game Day Honest question for posters that have watched this team closely over the last 3 years. Have we played zone defense at all during the Nelson tenure? I’m not here to start a debate or conversation about the benefits/drawbacks of one D over another. I know Nelson is a M2M guy fundamentally, and that’s fine. I’m just curious if we have ever tried to mix it up at all during his tenure. Again, honest question and not trying to push an agenda. I haven’t watched all of the games during Nelson’s tenure, but I’ve watched at least 80% of them (yes, there is something wrong with me and I need to get out more). I’ve personally have never seen them switch out of their core D. HC came out in a zone for about 30 seconds to start the 2nd half of the Siena game. It was obvious to everyone because our 5 guys were standing in place waving their arms. Siena drained a 3 and that was the end of the zone D
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 14, 2021 12:28:54 GMT -5
They also tried it for a possession in the BC game; it was just as "successful".
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 14, 2021 12:29:58 GMT -5
See, this is what happens when a school like Albany hires their head coach from a coaching staff that taught defense, unlike a Marquette, where we've been told the staff knew nothing about defense.
Wish we did the same!
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Post by Ray on Dec 14, 2021 13:30:41 GMT -5
The thing I hate about this coaching staff's approach is that there's nothing about what we're doing that makes us tough to prepare for. That was a hallmark of the Willard era, that you had to prep for the matchup zone. And even if you did prep, it wasn't going to be fun to play against.
Ironically, the only time we've seen anything like that in the ensuing decade-plus is the only other time we've had success over that timespan: when Carmody rolled out the 1-3-1 in March 2016. (Carmody's Princeton Offense might have qualified as making us "tough to prepare for", but I feel like we never fully realized that, and/or the accompanying defense was so bad it didn't matter.)
I don't understand why our last four coaches have been largely unable to figure this out: you're not going to win this league simply by out-recruiting/out-talenting the rest of the league. The schools/selling points/philosophies have too much in common... and now everyone has a full complement of scholarships. And even if you do win the recruiting wars, you're not winning them by such a margin that you can just take your team and win games when you play "up a level", be that in OOC or post-season play.
What's distinctive about the current team, either offensively or defensively? Nothing. There's nothing you need to see on film to figure out how to beat us. Heck, if I were an opposing coach, I wouldn't want to show HC film to my team, lest they become overconfident. ("Wow, they're short AND they can't shoot straight? This is gonna be fun, I'm going for 30 tonight!")
I don't think there's any hope for this program until we get a coach who wants to put their stamp on it. I see no evidence that Nelson even owns a stamp, other than his "Attack and Serve" email signature.
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Post by Ray on Dec 14, 2021 13:32:31 GMT -5
See, this is what happens when a school like Albany hires their head coach from a coaching staff that taught defense, unlike a Marquette, where we've been told the staff knew nothing about defense. Wish we did the same! Funny, haha. But I see no evidence that Brett Nelson knows anything about coaching defense.
RJ Evans should know. If he's not the "defensive coordinator" on the current staff, that's a crime in itself.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 14, 2021 15:23:06 GMT -5
The thing I hate about this coaching staff's approach is that there's nothing about what we're doing that makes us tough to prepare for. That was a hallmark of the Willard era, that you had to prep for the matchup zone. And even if you did prep, it wasn't going to be fun to play against. Ironically, the only time we've seen anything like that in the ensuing decade-plus is the only other time we've had success over that timespan: when Carmody rolled out the 1-3-1 in March 2016. (Carmody's Princeton Offense might have qualified as making us "tough to prepare for", but I feel like we never fully realized that, and/or the accompanying defense was so bad it didn't matter.) I don't understand why our last four coaches have been largely unable to figure this out: you're not going to win this league simply by out-recruiting/out-talenting the rest of the league. The schools/selling points/philosophies have too much in common... and now everyone has a full complement of scholarships. And even if you do win the recruiting wars, you're not winning them by such a margin that you can just take your team and win games when you play "up a level", be that in OOC or post-season play. What's distinctive about the current team, either offensively or defensively? Nothing. There's nothing you need to see on film to figure out how to beat us. Heck, if I were an opposing coach, I wouldn't want to show HC film to my team, lest they become overconfident. ("Wow, they're short AND they can't shoot straight? This is gonna be fun, I'm going for 30 tonight!") I don't think there's any hope for this program until we get a coach who wants to put their stamp on it. I see no evidence that Nelson even owns a stamp, other than his "Attack and Serve" email signature. I don't necessarily disagree with your larger point, but would you be able to identify the "hallmark" of any of the teams that won the last 10 PLC's? 2021 - Colgate (Langel) 2020 - BU (Jones) 2019 - Colgate (Langel) 2018 - Bucknell (Davis) 2017 - Bucknell (Davis) 2016 - Holy Cross (Carmody) 2015 - Lafayette (O'Hanlon) 2014 - American (Brennan) 2013 - Bucknell (Paulsen) 2012 - Lehigh (Reed) Did any of these teams do anything that you would want HC to try and "emulate" -- a la how the RW and Flannery teams both played great, tough defense? IMHO, the vast majority of these titles were won by the most talented teams in the league, and there isn't a coach on that list who would come close to having the type of impact that the top tier of coaches had in the pL over the past 25 years (Willard, Flannery, Jeff Jones). Holy Cross needs to play better and coach better, and we also need to get more experienced (both players and coach). The only way that's going to happen is with time. I suggest reviewing the early tenures of Matt Langel at Colgate and Wes Miller at UNC Greensboro (now Cincinnati). If Crossports posters were the ADs at these schools, both those guys would have been fired before they turned each program around.
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Post by bfoley82 on Dec 14, 2021 15:28:24 GMT -5
Great coaches have advocated the use of constantly changing defenses, matchup zones, etc. to keep your opponent off guard and make it hard for them to scout. Imagine the defensive genius in the days before the shot clock. Go watch Rollie’s teams in the early to mid 80s. Every coach should have a zone defense as part of their attack....
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Post by bfoley82 on Dec 14, 2021 15:31:31 GMT -5
See, this is what happens when a school like Albany hires their head coach from a coaching staff that taught defense, unlike a Marquette, where we've been told the staff knew nothing about defense. Wish we did the same! Albany improved to 3-9 with that victory BTW....really rolling in the wins this season.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 14, 2021 15:36:36 GMT -5
The thing I hate about this coaching staff's approach is that there's nothing about what we're doing that makes us tough to prepare for. That was a hallmark of the Willard era, that you had to prep for the matchup zone. And even if you did prep, it wasn't going to be fun to play against. Ironically, the only time we've seen anything like that in the ensuing decade-plus is the only other time we've had success over that timespan: when Carmody rolled out the 1-3-1 in March 2016. (Carmody's Princeton Offense might have qualified as making us "tough to prepare for", but I feel like we never fully realized that, and/or the accompanying defense was so bad it didn't matter.) I don't understand why our last four coaches have been largely unable to figure this out: you're not going to win this league simply by out-recruiting/out-talenting the rest of the league. The schools/selling points/philosophies have too much in common... and now everyone has a full complement of scholarships. And even if you do win the recruiting wars, you're not winning them by such a margin that you can just take your team and win games when you play "up a level", be that in OOC or post-season play. What's distinctive about the current team, either offensively or defensively? Nothing. There's nothing you need to see on film to figure out how to beat us. Heck, if I were an opposing coach, I wouldn't want to show HC film to my team, lest they become overconfident. ("Wow, they're short AND they can't shoot straight? This is gonna be fun, I'm going for 30 tonight!") I don't think there's any hope for this program until we get a coach who wants to put their stamp on it. I see no evidence that Nelson even owns a stamp, other than his "Attack and Serve" email signature. My first reaction to hearing "attack and serve" was to think, "drive and dish." Has that motto ever been more concretely defined by the coach?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 14, 2021 15:43:11 GMT -5
So, keep waiting and things are certain to improve in time?
You have referenced Langel at Colgate a number of times---how the team was sub.500 each of his first 5 years at Colgate. Of course, there's a difference between going 8-22, 11-21, and 13-18 and the W-L records we have been posting. How did Langel do with the X's and O's those early Colgate years? Did he attempt to install some kind of offense and ask his team to play defense or did he just "roll the ball out there"? Is Brett Nelson doing the things early in his tenure at HC that Langel did at Colgate and Miller did at Greensboro?
II may have asked this before, but if you were AD would you have whacked Sean Kearney or would you have had the same patience with him that you advocate we have with BN?
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 14, 2021 16:02:12 GMT -5
So, keep waiting and things are certain to improve in time? You have referenced Langel at Colgate a number of times---how the team was sub.500 each of his first 5 years at Colgate. Of course, there's a difference between going 8-22, 11-21, and 13-18 and the W-L records we have been posting. How did Langel do with the X's and O's those early Colgate years? Did he attempt to install some kind of offense and ask his team to play defense or did he just "roll the ball out there"? Is Brett Nelson doing the things early in his tenure at HC that Langel did at Colgate and Miller did at Greensboro? II may have asked this before, but if you were AD would you have whacked Sean Kearney or would you have had the same patience with him that you advocate we have with BN? I was not closely following Colgate and UNCG during that time, so I can't speak to specifics, but I think it's pretty clear to anyone that Langel and Miller improved drastically as head coaches from their first few years, to where they are today. For example, Miller's first five teams at UNCG had a KenPom Defense rank of 267-288-247-278-221*. Over the past five years, his teams are 26-74-58-62-46. *Note: Those first five teams had an average KenPom Experience rank of 215, while Nelson's average KP Experience has been 310 so far.Re: Kearney, yes, I would have whacked him after Year 1. There was enough evidence to show that he did not have the traits or personality to be the leader of a D1 basketball program. The jury is still out on Nelson, but I think any comparisons between him and Kearney are pretty ridiculous. Two very different people with very different backgrounds.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 14, 2021 16:02:41 GMT -5
The thing I hate about this coaching staff's approach is that there's nothing about what we're doing that makes us tough to prepare for. That was a hallmark of the Willard era, that you had to prep for the matchup zone. And even if you did prep, it wasn't going to be fun to play against. Ironically, the only time we've seen anything like that in the ensuing decade-plus is the only other time we've had success over that timespan: when Carmody rolled out the 1-3-1 in March 2016. (Carmody's Princeton Offense might have qualified as making us "tough to prepare for", but I feel like we never fully realized that, and/or the accompanying defense was so bad it didn't matter.) I don't understand why our last four coaches have been largely unable to figure this out: you're not going to win this league simply by out-recruiting/out-talenting the rest of the league. The schools/selling points/philosophies have too much in common... and now everyone has a full complement of scholarships. And even if you do win the recruiting wars, you're not winning them by such a margin that you can just take your team and win games when you play "up a level", be that in OOC or post-season play. What's distinctive about the current team, either offensively or defensively? Nothing. There's nothing you need to see on film to figure out how to beat us. Heck, if I were an opposing coach, I wouldn't want to show HC film to my team, lest they become overconfident. ("Wow, they're short AND they can't shoot straight? This is gonna be fun, I'm going for 30 tonight!") I don't think there's any hope for this program until we get a coach who wants to put their stamp on it. I see no evidence that Nelson even owns a stamp, other than his "Attack and Serve" email signature. I suggest reviewing the early tenures of Matt Langel at Colgate and Wes Miller at UNC Greensboro (now Cincinnati). If Crossports posters were the ADs at these schools, both those guys would have been fired before they turned each program around. I'm actually not sure you want to go down that path. On this date in Langel's third year, Colgate was 5-4 with narrow losses to Wake Forest and Georgetown. While they finished the season 13-18 (6-12), it was their best season since 2008 when Emmett Davis took Colgate to the PLC. Langel's team ranked fifth in the nation in effective FG% (56.4%). He also had successfully brought in a number of impactful transfers (Murphy Burnatowski, Ethan Jacobs, and Austin Tillotson). Also, we talk a lot about being able to identify a plan / system that Nelson has beyond "attack and serve" (what's the mean, by the way?), and it was plainly obvious what the identity of Langel's teams would be: shoot the piss out of the ball. At the end of year three, Langel's record at Colgate was 32-61 (13-33). Not good, but the records were improving each season. Nelson might not reach ten Division 1 wins after his third season. After three seasons in Greensboro, Miller was 36-59. I don't know enough about the Greensboro program to comment on things beyond record, but what I do know is that his winning percentage after three seasons there will be a lot better than Nelson's.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 14, 2021 16:10:35 GMT -5
I suggest reviewing the early tenures of Matt Langel at Colgate and Wes Miller at UNC Greensboro (now Cincinnati). If Crossports posters were the ADs at these schools, both those guys would have been fired before they turned each program around. I'm actually not sure you want to go down that path. On this date in Langel's third year, Colgate was 5-4 with narrow losses to Wake Forest and Georgetown. While they finished the season 13-18 (6-12), it was their best season since 2008 when Emmett Davis took Colgate to the PLC. Langel's team ranked fifth in the nation in effective FG% (56.4%). He also had successfully brought in a number of impactful transfers (Murphy Burnatowski, Ethan Jacobs, and Austin Tillotson). Also, we talk a lot about being able to identify a plan / system that Nelson has beyond "attack and serve" (what's the mean, by the way?), and it was plainly obvious what the identity of Langel's teams would be: shoot the piss out of the ball. At the end of year three, Langel's record at Colgate was 32-61 (13-33). Not good, but the records were improving each season. Nelson might not reach ten Division 1 wins after his third season. After three seasons in Greensboro, Miller was 36-59. I don't know enough about the Greensboro program to comment on things beyond record, but what I do know is that his winning percentage after three seasons there will be a lot better than Nelson's. Finishing off the KenPom Experience ranks from my previous response to KY, Langel's first five teams had an avg rank of 101 (vs 215 for Miller vs 310 for Nelson). And that number is actually greatly inflated by a 294 rank in Year 5 -- the average rank over his first four years was 52. Point being that neither guy had to deal with rosters that were so heavily reliant upon guys with limited-to-no D1 experience. Re: the records you cite here, those guys had Plain Sh*tty records, while Nelson has a Really Sh*tty record -- does it really make a difference? If you subbed out their rosters for Nelson's would they still have been in the former category or would they have drifted down to Really Sh*tty Land as well? Dunno. NOTE: Once again, I am not saying that Nelson is as good as Langel and Miller, nor am i saying that he is the right coach for HC. All I am saying is that there are clear examples of coaches who took longer than the time that Nelson has had so far at HC (especially if you consider pandemic vs non-pandemic times) to turn their programs around, and who eventually showed very significant improvement as head coaches.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 14, 2021 16:36:35 GMT -5
BBC, When you watch our team, what gives you any optimism about Nelson’s coaching ?
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 14, 2021 19:04:48 GMT -5
BBC, When you watch our team, what gives you any optimism about Nelson’s coaching ? Blind hope? The feeling that things can’t get much worse/have to get better? In all seriousness, I get the impression that he cares a lot and knows that this is likely his one chance at having a career as a D1 Head Coach, giving him a sense of urgency that he/the team needs to improve. I don’t know if things will get better with Nelson, but I really hope they do, because opening things back up again to bring in another new coach is just going to mean extending the dreadful results ever farther along with no guarantee that things will get better on the other side.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 14, 2021 19:48:14 GMT -5
I certainly understand that concept but it presumes that another coach can't be more effective with the current crop of players until he (she?) gets their own players. I don't subscribe to that theory.
I believe (blind faith?), the right coach, who doesn't have to be a Rick Pitino, can teach and work with these athletic players to accomplish successes that apparently are beyond Brett.
My read on this board is that there is almost universal agreement that Brett should have the rest of this season to turn things around at least to the level that there is evidence that the team is putting it all together. Failing that, there should be a parting of the ways. I'm sure with Brett's background and experience that he would get a job as an assistant at a higher level where he'd probably make close to what he's making at Holy Cross.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 14, 2021 19:54:33 GMT -5
We need our version of Chris Beard at Texas
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Post by sader81 on Dec 14, 2021 20:16:04 GMT -5
It’s a bit unfair to compare BN’s first two years with other coaches. He had a mass exodus of players in year one, going into year two. Were some of those players “run off” - we really don’t know. Certainly Green & Grandy we’re leaving before he got here. Year two was unprecedented with COVID, and a schedule of their playing mainly the league’s two top teams. That said, year three has been very disappointing. Other than a few decent halves of basketball, none of which were consecutive, the team has looked unprepared and outmatched. I still can’t figure out the offense, and wish he could master some zone defense, as they certainly haven’t mastered MTM. Yes, the team is young and I believe BN has recruited pretty well. I once played for a legendary and now an infamous head coach who used to say when things were not going great: “keep playing hard, good things will start to happen!” I’ve been to most of the games, and watched the others. I think the kids are still playing hard, and if that stops, maybe it will be time for a change. Until then, let’s see what happens this year.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 14, 2021 21:05:50 GMT -5
BBC, When you watch our team, what gives you any optimism about Nelson’s coaching ? Blind hope? The feeling that things can’t get much worse/have to get better? In all seriousness, I get the impression that he cares a lot and knows that this is likely his one chance at having a career as a D1 Head Coach, giving him a sense of urgency that he/the team needs to improve. I don’t know if things will get better with Nelson, but I really hope they do, because opening things back up again to bring in another new coach is just going to mean extending the dreadful results ever farther along with no guarantee that things will get better on the other side. Not much of an endorsement. No possibility that a new coach could be an improvement ?
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