|
Post by hc17 on Jan 25, 2022 11:38:25 GMT -5
Why would any competent, successful coach in his right mind take the job at HC? We are constantly changing coaches after a few years - SK, fired; MB, let go; BC, did retire; And now BN. Is there a time frame when it is acceptable replace a coach that is not meeting expectations? Coach Kearney - You are correct. That was fast and made HC look bad. A coach might think twice about walking in that situation. I'm not saying that was a mistake. From everything I've heard and seen, Coach Kearney was not as prepared to run a college program as any other HC head basketball coach. Still it leads to the revolving door perception Coach Brown - 5 years. Fired with one year remaining on his extended contract. Managed to reach the semis of the conference tournament once in those 5 years. Year 4 looked like there were signs of progress. I thought the big step backwards in year 5 after only losing one senior (albeit a really good one) sealed his fate Year 4 suddenly looked more like an anomaly than a step along the road of progress. You don't want to look like a revolving door, but at some point, you should be able to expect results. Was 5 years too short a time frame to give Coach Brown a fair shot? If not, how many more years before you decide that the current path only leads to mediocrity? On a minor tangent, many schools are perfectly happy with a clean but mediocre program. Is that the goal HC is striving for? Coach Carmody - retired after 4 years. Should have no bearing on any perception that HC is a revolving door Coach Nelson - Still here after 2 1/2 years. Poor does not describe the results. Year 2 was a step up from year 1. Year 3 has been a step backwards. Some extraordinary circumstances. COVID and the half season last year affected everyone, but reasonable to think it would be more harmful to an extremely young, rebuilding team. The exodus of almost everyone is a huge. Many here don't think that it's a mitigating circumstance because they blame Coach Nelson for the exodus. Maybe fair. Maybe not. If we assume that it's too soon to call the Nelson experiment a failure, how much time is fair. Was the 5 year Coach Brown plan enough? I agree stability is important and any coach should be given a fair chance. I'm not putting a hard time on anything, but there is a point where stably bad isn't good enough Agree with all of the points outlined here -- If the results continue the remainder of the year and Nelson is still the head coach, how can we take this program seriously? Despite the results, they are doing nothing to engage the alums and the broader fan base. If this is the 'flagship' program, what are we doing here? We have one recruit signed on the dotted line for next year. The Jimmys & the Joes aren't going to change unless the transfer portal gives more than it takes! Need a coach that can develop and maximize the roster while getting the job done on the recruiting trail. 2.5/3 years has been my limit. We're not even competitive & that is the worst part.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Jan 25, 2022 11:41:48 GMT -5
Slightly OT but does the Friends of Crusader Basketball still exist. I don't think so. It had been run by a former player and another alum who was a big fan. It was taken over by the school, specifically the Crusader Athletic Fund. They shifted focus from a group about engagement and support of the players to a revenue source. That shift combined with COVID was the end of that
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Jan 25, 2022 11:45:58 GMT -5
Why would any competent, successful coach in his right mind take the job at HC? We are constantly changing coaches after a few years - SK, fired; MB, let go; BC, did retire; And now BN. Add to that the reality that HC is a hard sell to recruits in the current climate. The schools decline in number of applicants in recent years indicates the problem extends far beyond attracting basketball recruits. A long gone history of modestly decent basketball is totally irrelevant. Times have changed. Tangentially, although the football team despite recent success has been in the crapper for much of the 21st century, the school has not had a revolving door for coaches. For many years some were screaming for the scalp of Tom Gilmore, a truly fine man but the school continued to show support until it was clear that a move was best for both parties. It's called loyalty. So in summary HC has been a struggling program, flopping around , at or near the bottom of the crappy PL. It has a recent history of changing coaches quickly. Any opportunity for career advancement has thus been destroyed for these men - the graveyard. Coaching b-ball at HC is a dead end. Do we truly believe the coaching job at HC is a sought-after jewel ? Why would any sane, competent individual choose to coach at HC over a job opportunity at another school Div I ,II, or III? Just some thoughts. Coach Willard's success was a tough act to follow,.
Following Coach Nelson might be the easiest act to follow in the entire Div I.
I am sure that there are a good number of successful Div II and III coaches that would jump at the opportunity to coach at HC. Easy league, good overall basketball tradition, decent facility, and a significant raise in pay compared to the lower Divisions.
It's identifying the right guy.....enthusiastic and young, but with head coaching experience at a lower level with a track record of success.....the Chesney profile.
The right coach could turn this program into a winner in three years. There's not a doubt in my mind.
Umass was rock bottom for a good 10 years before Calipari came along (the pre-cheating version, that is). Might take a while and they had 3 coaches in that span, 4 if you want to count Jack Leaman's final year.
|
|
|
Post by joe on Jan 25, 2022 12:00:17 GMT -5
My feeling is that everyone should let the rest of the season play out. Then, assuming we are still bad, see how many players transfer out. Then make a decision about whether this coach deserves another year or two.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Jan 25, 2022 12:06:37 GMT -5
I think Nelson's record for this season should determine his fate. How many players transfer out should not be a factor in whether to keep him or not. If he wins like 5-6 games (or less!), I really don't care if the entire team sticks with him. I do agree if there is a mass exodus of players that almost regardless of his record, he needs to go. This. is. the. rock. bottom. for. Holy. Cross. basketball.
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Jan 25, 2022 12:08:05 GMT -5
Slightly OT but does the Friends of Crusader Basketball still exist. I don't think so. It had been run by a former player and another alum who was a big fan. It was taken over by the school, specifically the Crusader Athletic Fund. They shifted focus from a group about engagement and support of the players to a revenue source. That shift combined with COVID was the end of that Was it was called the Basketball Society for a while?
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Jan 25, 2022 12:09:47 GMT -5
I think Nelson's record for this season should determine his fate. How many players transfer out should not be a factor in whether to keep him or not. If he wins like 5-6 games (or less!), I really don't care if the entire team sticks with him. I do agree if there is a mass exodus of players that almost regardless of his record, he needs to go. This. is. the. rock. bottom. for. Holy. Cross. basketball. But. better. than. a. major. scandal.?
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Jan 25, 2022 12:11:15 GMT -5
Some of us already think this dumpster fire of a program is a major scandal!
|
|
|
Post by crosspride on Jan 25, 2022 12:13:56 GMT -5
Why would any competent, successful coach in his right mind take the job at HC? I can give you more than 300,000 reasons every year. Now do an expected earnings analysis based on salary and likelihood of getting fired before your recruits are upperclassmen at HC vs. other like schools who pay in the same range. HC will have to pay close to 7 figures to justify the risk for a decent coach. Though if we don’t want to hire a decent coach I suppose 300k is fine.
|
|
|
Post by joe on Jan 25, 2022 12:19:42 GMT -5
I’m saying we should not be sending the message to other prospective coaches that we don’t give coaches a full recruiting cycle to prove themselves. That being said if the coach can’t retain the players he’s been given 3 years to bring on and develop, he should be fired early. I think that’s the most reasonable, non-emotional approach.
|
|
|
Post by trimster on Jan 25, 2022 12:21:53 GMT -5
Slightly OT but does the Friends of Crusader Basketball still exist. I don't think so. It had been run by a former player and another alum who was a big fan. It was taken over by the school, specifically the Crusader Athletic Fund. They shifted focus from a group about engagement and support of the players to a revenue source. That shift combined with COVID was the end of that Thanks for the update.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Jan 25, 2022 12:32:27 GMT -5
I don't think so. It had been run by a former player and another alum who was a big fan. It was taken over by the school, specifically the Crusader Athletic Fund. They shifted focus from a group about engagement and support of the players to a revenue source. That shift combined with COVID was the end of that Was it was called the Basketball Society for a while? yes
|
|
|
Post by princetoncrusader on Jan 25, 2022 12:47:26 GMT -5
They seem to be stuck on guys who look good in a suit at an introductory press conference and have had a string of increasingly senior SUBORDINATE positions at schools HC is happy to be associated with, as if those schools' academic or athletic prowess will be transferred to HC with the new hire. HC got none of the higher level athletic performance of ND, Marquette or BC and none of the higher level academics of Brown, Princeton or Northwestern when SK, NP, BC, MB and BN arrived. The two coaches who are winning, Chesney and Magarity may or may not have been the result of a search firm, I can't recall. I'm lumping Coach Carmody in there. He actually had head coaching experience and was a good recruiter as Green, Grandison, Butler and Faw are all still starting in D-1. He just seemed to run out of gas. Believe Carmody also deserves credit for JP, the ECAC rookie of the year.
|
|
|
Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 25, 2022 13:07:20 GMT -5
As far as Chesney goes, he is recruiting better than his PL peers. I’d put Carmody as a recruiter either average or below average relative to his PL peers. Nelson, IMHO, is below average in this regard. I think his recruiting (as measured by offers) is at least average and a significant step above where Carmody was. As measured by offers, Nelson’s recruiting is much better than Carmody’s. Say what you want about Carmody, his recruiting, his game preparation, and win / loss record, but several of his players are playing at a level above the PL -- Grandison - Big Ten Butler - Conference USA Green - MAAC Pridgen - CAA Marlon Hargis would also be a better option than some of the guys on the current roster, too. I think the only thing that we can hope for is that the sophomore class will take a major leap going into their junior season. Martindale, in particular, seemed like a high-prized recruit who could fill it up offensively. So far this year, he's only really filled it up against the D3s. Need him to take a big step.
|
|
|
Post by HC92 on Jan 25, 2022 13:07:50 GMT -5
I’m saying we should not be sending the message to other prospective coaches that we don’t give coaches a full recruiting cycle to prove themselves. That being said if the coach can’t retain the players he’s been given 3 years to bring on and develop, he should be fired early. I think that’s the most reasonable, non-emotional approach. He’s had a full recruiting cycle as he recruited every scholarship player on the roster. I just don’t see a lot changing. I think the ceiling for BN is where MB was when he was fired.
|
|
|
Post by HC92 on Jan 25, 2022 13:11:20 GMT -5
This will be the first year in forever that at least 50% my CAF donation does not go to basketball. Might just go all in on football to send a very small message that I’m done with spending my hard-earned money on a floundering program. I’ll still go to games when allowed mostly to see the people I like who still go.
|
|
|
Post by mm67 on Jan 25, 2022 13:31:22 GMT -5
My Gosh, In my lifetime basketball was HC's marquis sport. I hope with all my heart that the posters are correct. I was addicted to the HC great and incredibly fine man, the all time great Bob Cousy. I saw Tom Heinsohn at the Rose Hill Gym in '56 or '55. My first cousin HC'59 complained about the break USF's all time great and one of my favorites, Bill Russell got in the Holiday Festival in America's most famous arena, MSG. Would read the Celtics boxscore on an almost daily basis and rooted for Cousy & Heinsohn. I followed Jack the Shot's scoring. I avidly read in the now defunct NY Journal American about HC's tough loss to Providence in the NIT. I went to every home game in college. Suffered the indignity of our loss to nasty BC art Roberts. I was pissed by the behavior of their crude fans.I saw Joe Kelly, the great Wendelkin, Hochstein, the great Siudut, Murray, Perry, and so many of our recent great players and fine men. I gloried in the great Blaney, my classmate Willard. As an alum I closely followed the team & went to every game in the NY area and a few in the old Hart. I don't expect a return to glory. I believe the players on this team are fine young men and talented players. I do take pride in them. They are young. They need positive, supportive coaching. I believe BN is a fine young man.I wish Nelson well..They need our respect and, yes, love. I don't want to see HC suffer further setbacks whether by prematurely firing BN or failing to move on. I don't have any answers. All I have is disappointment and hurt. All I have is my lifetime love of HC b-ball, All I have is my love of HC. Corny mm
|
|
|
Post by trimster on Jan 25, 2022 13:41:23 GMT -5
My Gosh, In my lifetime basketball was HC's marquis sport. I hope with all my heart that the posters are correct. I was addicted to the HC great and incredibly fine man, the all time great Bob Cousy. I saw Tom Heinsohn at the Rose Hill Gym in '56 or '55. My first cousin HC'59 complained about the break USF's all time great and one of my favorites, Bill Russell got in the Holiday Festival in America's most famous arena, MSG. Would read the Celtics boxscore on an almost daily basis and rooted for Cousy & Heinsohn. I followed Jack the Shot's scoring. I avidly read in the now defunct NY Journal American about HC's tough loss to Providence in the NIT. I went to every home game in college. Suffered the indignity of our loss to nasty BC art Roberts. I was pissed by the behavior of their crude fans.I saw Joe Kelly, the great Wendelkin, Hochstein, the great Siudut, Murray, Perry, and so many of our recent great players and fine men. I gloried in the great Blaney, my classmate Willard. As an alum I closely followed the team & went to every game in the NY area and a few in the old Hart. I don't expect a return to glory. I believe the players on this team are fine young men and talented players. I do take pride in them. They are young. They need positive, supportive coaching. I believe BN is a fine young man.I wish Nelson well..They need our respect and, yes, love. I don't want to see HC suffer further setbacks whether by prematurely firing BN or failing to move on. I don't have any answers. All I have is disappointment and hurt. All I have is my lifetime love of HC b-ball, All I have is my love of HC. Corny mm I don't expect a return to glory but I expect a return to respectability. RW did it but 2007 is now 15 years ago. Hard to believe but that is quite the dryspell.
|
|
|
Post by HC92 on Jan 25, 2022 14:34:03 GMT -5
I’ve taken my kids to a lot of games. Other than the one post-season run, they’ve not been able to see a good HC team during their childhoods. I have a few pics of the oldest at the Hart Center during the RW era but he was too young to remember much. Thank God I made the decision to drive to Lehigh for the PL title game with the kids. They still talk about how much fun that was. That’s been about it.
|
|
|
Post by notjuanjones on Jan 25, 2022 14:48:09 GMT -5
Curious. I think HC and AU are in pretty similar buckets right now-trending in the bad wrong direction, alumni interest waning, student attendance dwindling, not much sense that the administration knows how to turn it around. Is this a school/university problem, or a PL problem? I think Bucknell will get back to being Bucknell pretty quickly after they cashier Davis and hire somebody good. But I'm not sure the same can be said for HC/AU. Nor do I think that Lafayette is going to get markedly better post-FOH, and Lehigh's not a whole lot better. And I don't know that Loyola can hold onto Hardy much longer.
I tend to think the PL isn't all that bad a conference, but the numbers this season...geez. Makes me wonder.
|
|
|
Post by newfieguy74 on Jan 25, 2022 15:09:58 GMT -5
I’ve taken my kids to a lot of games. Other than the one post-season run, they’ve not been able to see a good HC team during their childhoods. I have a few pics of the oldest at the Hart Center during the RW era but he was too young to remember much. Thank God I made the decision to drive to Lehigh for the PL title game with the kids. They still talk about how much fun that was. That’s been about it. I remember taking my three sons to the Hart Center in the Keith Simmons era to watch HC play for the PL championship. Packed housed, CBS and John Feinstein, crowd screaming from beginning to end. My sons still talk about how much fun that was. If we can get back to that I'm fine (and for icing on the cake maybe win a game in the big dance every once in a while).
|
|
|
Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 25, 2022 15:37:41 GMT -5
I’ve taken my kids to a lot of games. Other than the one post-season run, they’ve not been able to see a good HC team during their childhoods. I have a few pics of the oldest at the Hart Center during the RW era but he was too young to remember much. Thank God I made the decision to drive to Lehigh for the PL title game with the kids. They still talk about how much fun that was. That’s been about it. I remember taking my three sons to the Hart Center in the Keith Simmons era to watch HC play for the PL championship. Packed housed, CBS and John Feinstein... Bob Wischusen and Tim McCormick (I think) on ESPN2.
|
|
|
Post by hc17 on Jan 25, 2022 15:45:19 GMT -5
Curious. I think HC and AU are in pretty similar buckets right now-trending in the bad wrong direction, alumni interest waning, student attendance dwindling, not much sense that the administration knows how to turn it around. Is this a school/university problem, or a PL problem? I think Bucknell will get back to being Bucknell pretty quickly after they cashier Davis and hire somebody good. But I'm not sure the same can be said for HC/AU. Nor do I think that Lafayette is going to get markedly better post-FOH, and Lehigh's not a whole lot better. And I don't know that Loyola can hold onto Hardy much longer. I tend to think the PL isn't all that bad a conference, but the numbers this season...geez. Makes me wonder. Do you think Brennan is gone at season's end? Anyone lined up as a potential replacement?
|
|
|
Post by Bleed Purple on Jan 25, 2022 17:09:56 GMT -5
Not to pile on, but after watching the Bucknell game and seeing how important a role Gates plays on the team, consider that these may be the "good old days". As bad as this year has been, next year could be even worse, if possible, without Gates. Hopefully, he can come back and or the sophomore class shows significant development.
Go Cross Go!!
|
|
|
Post by notjuanjones on Jan 25, 2022 17:10:00 GMT -5
Curious. I think HC and AU are in pretty similar buckets right now-trending in the bad wrong direction, alumni interest waning, student attendance dwindling, not much sense that the administration knows how to turn it around. Is this a school/university problem, or a PL problem? I think Bucknell will get back to being Bucknell pretty quickly after they cashier Davis and hire somebody good. But I'm not sure the same can be said for HC/AU. Nor do I think that Lafayette is going to get markedly better post-FOH, and Lehigh's not a whole lot better. And I don't know that Loyola can hold onto Hardy much longer. I tend to think the PL isn't all that bad a conference, but the numbers this season...geez. Makes me wonder. Do you think Brennan is gone at season's end? Anyone lined up as a potential replacement? I don't have any intel, HC17. But it's hard for me to see us bringing him back if this season continues on its current path.
|
|