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Post by HC92 on Jun 24, 2022 7:58:28 GMT -5
The things you point out are exactly why it makes no sense to compare players from different eras. If you put a 1950s sized guy with 1950s diet and weight training and 1950s level of attention to offseason practices and training and film study, he’s not going to do well in 2022. The question is how the 1950s guy compared to all the other 1950s guys and how the 2020s guy compare to all the 2020s guys.
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Post by hcpride on Jun 24, 2022 8:25:51 GMT -5
The things you point out are exactly why it makes no sense to compare players from different eras. If you put a 1950s sized guy with 1950s diet and weight training and 1950s level of attention to offseason practices and training and film study, he’s not going to do well in 2022. The question is how the 1950s guy compared to all the other 1950s guys and how the 2020s guy compare to all the 2020s guys. Judging peer-to-peer, the only linebacker I saw v us who was as impressive as Jacob was the Nova linebacker. IMHO. Which makes sense since they were the better team that day (and ranked a bit higher in the FCS).
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 24, 2022 8:28:24 GMT -5
I think we are in agreement - for the most part - but my post is perhaps a response to what I've heard from some (yes, some of my football classmates) that they were better than today's players (the same guys that went 6-3-1; 5-5-0; 3-6-1; 0-2-0) because the played Syracuse and BC and with the exception of the '66 BC last second win, generally lost to those regional powers.
Now, back to the present - we've got some outstanding players and I am looking forward to another championship and going deeper into the playoffs. Not sure if a national championship is still beyond our grasp but after watching the most recent Chesney interview, I suspect that's his and the team's "private goal."
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 24, 2022 8:36:42 GMT -5
As has been said..."A man's reach should exceed his grasp...or what's a heaven for?"
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Post by hcpride on Jun 24, 2022 8:39:47 GMT -5
I think we are in agreement - for the most part - but my post is perhaps a response to what I've heard from some (yes, some of my football classmates) that they were better than today's players (the same guys that went 6-3-1; 5-5-0; 3-6-1; 0-2-0) because the played Syracuse and BC and with the exception of the '66 BC last second win, generally lost to those regional powers. Now, back to the present - we've got some outstanding players and I am looking forward to another championship and going deeper into the playoffs. Not sure if a national championship is still beyond our grasp but after watching the most recent Chesney interview, I suspect that's his and the team's "private goal." I heard that in the pre-Patriot 80’s (where some equated the move to I-AA and the dropping of the Syracuse game as a drastic weakening of HC’s football talent). Even if the schedules were otherwise remarkably similar. Of course, when a few of Carter’s players were drafted there must have been some puzzled older grads. And I suspect you’re onto something reference private team goals.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Jun 24, 2022 9:01:32 GMT -5
My last comment on this (it never ceases to amaze me how this group can anchor on one sentence in a 3 paragraph commentary and it typically always leads to a discussion about past generations…but I still love my fellow HC alums) The term “best” is subjective. Does it mean “most valuable”? Does it mean accolades in that era? I.e. All-American seasons/rankings etc. For me, like most debates, there is a mixture of art and science or quantitative vs qualitative analysis. Many will lean more heavily into the stats like total tackles per game, TFLs etc when a player finishes his HC career (quantitative bias). Other’s trust their eyes vs the era of that competition. There is always some combination of these variables. Last thing I’ve noticed, a lot of folks seem to anchor on a player’s post college career as if that should factor into their career at HC. Personally, this is factor I don’t lend as much credence to as others. For example, I would argue in the debate as best HC receiver in the 21st century, Branden Flaherty and Ari Confessor would be ahead of Kalif Raymond based on my earlier comments, despite Kalif having the most impressive NFL career in a generation.
NOW BACK TO 2022? CAN WE DO IT? Any thoughts on the Liam’s? How about my question about depth and defensive fronts?
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Post by mm67 on Jun 24, 2022 9:03:01 GMT -5
Vince Promuto? Charlie Malloy? Jon Morris? Jack Concannon? Jack Lentz? RB Joe ...? Jon Provost? & many others? Discussions about who was better may be fun for some but in the end are pointless. Of course a list of a few is by no means indicative of the whole. HC & its competitors (not LU, LC & Buck) did compete on a higher level in an earlier football arena. Football competition has changed with the times. HC and its traditional competitors have moved with the times In general athletes today are bigger, stronger, faster & better trained than in years gone by. Look at those sporting events which are measurable such as Swimming & Track & field. Times have dramatically improved. Some of the HC teams from 1AA/FCS have been terrific with many great players - bigger, stronger, etc. Appreciate & enjoy it all.
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Post by hcpride on Jun 24, 2022 9:18:08 GMT -5
Last thing I’ve noticed, a lot of folks seem to anchor on a player’s post college career as if that should factor into their career at HC. Personally, this is factor I don’t lend as much credence to as others. For example, I would argue in the debate as best HC receiver in the 21st century, Branden Flaherty and Ari Confessor would be ahead of Kalif Raymond based on my earlier comments, despite Kalif having the most impressive NFL career in a generation. Kalif is a good example of an undrafted college guy with NFL receiver speed making it to the NFL. Although I’ve never heard anybody argue he was HC’s best receiver this century.
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Post by hchoops on Jun 24, 2022 9:34:43 GMT -5
(Apologies to 92 whose post I had not read before posting this)
It is hard to compare players from different eras, especially when one presumes that players from the 60s would be the sizes they were in those years. If they played today, they would have the same benefits of diet, weight training etc. that today’s players have. Jon Morris played Penn State,and Syracuse regularly, as well as BC each season. He was an All Pro. No player of the last 30 years has anywhere near those credentials. Not their fault. We have played a PL schedule and do not have nationally ranked 4 and 5 star players. Kalif is a rarity.
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Post by dharry13 on Jun 24, 2022 11:12:43 GMT -5
Top 3 LBs are excellent midwest. Bolden ready to play now along with Monte. Love their top 5. Would love to see more out of Dickson this year. Just haven't seen him on the field. Very curious as well about the freshman Sam Boyer. If he truly is 6'1/215 now - he easily gets to 6'1/225. Watched him on tape - he can move.
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Post by hc6774 on Jun 24, 2022 11:22:22 GMT -5
(Apologies to 92 whose post I had not read before posting this) It is hard to compare players from different eras, especially when one presumes that players from the 60s would be the sizes they were in those years. If they played today, they would have the same benefits of diet, weight training etc. that today’s players have. Jon Morris played Penn State,and Syracuse regularly, as well as BC each season. He was an All Pro. No player of the last 30 years has anywhere near those credentials. Not their fault. We have played a PL schedule and do not have nationally ranked 4 and 5 star players. Kalif is a rarity. NCAA Substitution Rules made Gordie Lockbaum a Heisman candidate 1953--Two-platoon abolished and players allowed to enter game only once in each quarter 1954-64--Changes each year toward more liberalized substitution and platoon football. 1965--Platoon football returns. Unlimited substitutions between periods and after a score. 1974--Substitutes must be in for one play and replaced players out for one play.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Jun 24, 2022 11:35:17 GMT -5
Top 3 LBs are excellent midwest. Bolden ready to play now along with Monte. Love their top 5. Would love to see more out of Dickson this year. Just haven't seen him on the field. Very curious as well about the freshman Sam Boyer. If he truly is 6'1/215 now - he easily gets to 6'1/225. Watched him on tape - he can move. Bolden, Dickson and Monte all played a ton of ST last year (which is what would you expect from your #2 LB’s.) I watched each a bit to get a sense of how they move but not enough PT to really know how they’d perform at LB if thrown into the fire (Bolden and Dickson saw some action in mop up time last fall.) Dante is the only one that’s played one entire game at LB and that was Spring of 21’ but against a damn good offense.
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 24, 2022 14:27:47 GMT -5
I think we are in agreement - for the most part - but my post is perhaps a response to what I've heard from some (yes, some of my football classmates) that they were better than today's players (the same guys that went 6-3-1; 5-5-0; 3-6-1; 0-2-0) because the played Syracuse and BC and with the exception of the '66 BC last second win, generally lost to those regional powers. Now, back to the present - we've got some outstanding players and I am looking forward to another championship and going deeper into the playoffs. Not sure if a national championship is still beyond our grasp but after watching the most recent Chesney interview, I suspect that's his and the team's "private goal." I heard that in the pre-Patriot 80’s (where some equated the move to I-AA and the dropping of the Syracuse game as a drastic weakening of HC’s football talent). Even if the schedules were otherwise remarkably similar. Of course, when a few of Carter’s players were drafted there must have been some puzzled older grads. And I suspect you’re onto something reference private team goals. Is there much question that the Carter teams would beat the immediate pre-Carter teams?
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Post by timholycross on Jun 24, 2022 18:10:12 GMT -5
Same players different coach, really. 81 and 82 for sure featured people recruited by Wheelwright.
Now the program bottomed out circa 1974 and 1975, Doherty ran out of mirrors and didn't recruit very well at all. Certainly Carter's teams would beat those teams too.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 24, 2022 18:47:01 GMT -5
HC apparently has digitized the October 8, 1960 loss to then #1 Syracuse at Fitton Field. It may be the game film. Syracuse had Ernie Davis, Art Baker, and John Mackey as RBs. Davis was picked number 4 in the draft, but died before playing. Walt Sweeney was also on that team. (This was the game when the half-time score was announced at Yankee Stadium during a World Series game, there was a collective gasp from the crowd.)
The film apparently shows a slower game, some of which may be due to the condition of the field, and some of which may be due to the equipment worn. And the strength and conditioning programs of today are light years ahead of what was offered decades ago.
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Post by timholycross on Jun 25, 2022 8:30:12 GMT -5
HC apparently has digitized the October 8, 1960 loss to then #1 Syracuse at Fitton Field. It may be the game film. Syracuse had Ernie Davis, Art Baker, and John Mackey as RBs. Davis was picked number 4 in the draft, but died before playing. Walt Sweeney was also on that team. (This was the game when the half-time score was announced at Yankee Stadium during a World Series game, there was a collective gasp from the crowd.) The film apparently shows a slower game, some of which may be due to the condition of the field, and some of which may be due to the equipment worn. And the strength and conditioning programs of today are light years ahead of what was offered decades ago. Where are you finding the video? Doesn't seem to be in the video section of goholycross.com, which would seem to be the logical place for it to reside. I have a VHS copy of the 1979 BC game. I don't like watching it very much because it's a game film and all of HC's plays are on the first part; and BCs offensive plays on the second part (or vice versa). So unless one wants to do a lot of editing, no flow to the game.
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Post by hchoops on Jun 25, 2022 8:55:24 GMT -5
HC apparently has digitized the October 8, 1960 loss to then #1 Syracuse at Fitton Field. It may be the game film. Syracuse had Ernie Davis, Art Baker, and John Mackey as RBs. Davis was picked number 4 in the draft, but died before playing. Walt Sweeney was also on that team. (This was the game when the half-time score was announced at Yankee Stadium during a World Series game, there was a collective gasp from the crowd.) The film apparently shows a slower game, some of which may be due to the condition of the field, and some of which may be due to the equipment worn. And the strength and conditioning programs of today are light years ahead of what was offered decades ago. Perennial All pro Tight end John Mackey was a running back in college ? Surprising
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Post by hc6774 on Jun 25, 2022 9:28:05 GMT -5
Top 3 LBs are excellent midwest. Bolden ready to play now along with Monte. Love their top 5. Would love to see more out of Dickson this year. Just haven't seen him on the field. Very curious as well about the freshman Sam Boyer. If he truly is 6'1/215 now - he easily gets to 6'1/225. Watched him on tape - he can move. Bolden, Dickson and Monte all played a ton of ST last year (which is what would you expect from your #2 LB’s.) I watched each a bit to get a sense of how they move but not enough PT to really know how they’d perform at LB if thrown into the fire (Bolden and Dickson saw some action in mop up time last fall.) Dante is the only one that’s played one entire game at LB and that was Spring of 21’ but against a damn good offense.IIRC he was very good making 1 on 1 tackles in the flat for little or no gain
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Post by midwestsader05 on Jun 25, 2022 9:48:22 GMT -5
Indeed, Dante made 3-4 very impressive open field tackles in that Spring 21’ Fordham game. As I mentioned in a separate post, my inclination is he has all the tools to be a successful FCS LB, just needed a couple off-seasons with Coach G to get his physical stature where it needs to be. My assumption right now is that he sees the field a lot more this season (splitting time with Doran), and if Jake decides to not return for his SS year in 23’, opting for an opportunity in the Big 10 or NFL, Dante is likely to be our #1 LB heading into the 23’ season (with games against both BC and Army) and a defense needing to reload that season, it will be a huge ask and opportunity for him.
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Post by joe on Jun 25, 2022 10:15:29 GMT -5
The real question is if the greats of the past were somehow playing in 2022 how would they fare?
But in all seriousness HC is not going to lose a regular season game in 2022. Only a couple teams will play us close. You heard it here first.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 25, 2022 10:28:11 GMT -5
HC apparently has digitized the October 8, 1960 loss to then #1 Syracuse at Fitton Field. It may be the game film. Syracuse had Ernie Davis, Art Baker, and John Mackey as RBs. Davis was picked number 4 in the draft, but died before playing. Walt Sweeney was also on that team. (This was the game when the half-time score was announced at Yankee Stadium during a World Series game, there was a collective gasp from the crowd.) The film apparently shows a slower game, some of which may be due to the condition of the field, and some of which may be due to the equipment worn. And the strength and conditioning programs of today are light years ahead of what was offered decades ago. Where are you finding the video? Doesn't seem to be in the video section of goholycross.com, which would seem to be the logical place for it to reside. I have a VHS copy of the 1979 BC game. I don't like watching it very much because it's a game film and all of HC's plays are on the first part; and BCs offensive plays on the second part (or vice versa). So unless one wants to do a lot of editing, no flow to the game. Based on the second weekend Reunion schedule, it was shown on June11 to the class of '62. That conference room is in the athletic director's suite, and has a door that opens on the east side of the Hart court. So maybe they have an 'in' with the athletic department?! I understand that this game film was sequential plays, so not edited as you describe for the BC game. Is this the last time HC played an opponent ranked #1?
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Post by hchoops on Jun 25, 2022 11:00:19 GMT -5
I believe it is I checked the Syracuse and Penn State schedules for 61, 62 and 63
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 25, 2022 11:13:51 GMT -5
The real question is if the greats of the past were somehow playing in 2022 how would they fare? But in all seriousness HC is not going to lose a regular season game in 2022. Only a couple teams will play us close. You heard it here first. Hope you are correct, but HC will not be the favorite in every game
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 25, 2022 11:20:46 GMT -5
And opponents have different advantages such as Merrimack with graduate studies and flexible admissions being able to upgrade their team on a dime each year, H&Y being able to win recruiting battles by offering an Ivy League degree and Buffalo being FBS.
I wouldn't bet against HC in any game but I wouldn't bet on an undefeated season. I hope we make the playoffs and go deeper this year with perhaps two noontime games at Fitton.
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Post by hchoops on Jun 25, 2022 11:23:30 GMT -5
The real question is if the greats of the past were somehow playing in 2022 how would they fare? But in all seriousness HC is not going to lose a regular season game in 2022. Only a couple teams will play us close. You heard it here first. Hope you are correct, but HC will not be the favorite in every game [ Does not that depend on the respective teams’ records When we play them ?
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