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Post by rgs318 on Jan 11, 2023 13:10:37 GMT -5
Just checked on Massey and he would make HC a 14 point underdog (34-20). I, at this point (and given Massey's anti-FCS bias), see this as a bit more realistic that 5 points. Just my opinion.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 12, 2023 10:15:08 GMT -5
The class of 67 saw HC go 2-2 vs BC The best record for a class since then ? Class of '79 went 2-2 as well. We actually came very close to winning 5 in a row against BC from 1977-1981. Lost 27-26 in '79 after being up 26-13. Lost 13-10 in a tight game in 1980 and lost 28-24 in 1981 as we couldn't quite punch one in in the end. We got quite a bit better immediately after 1981 (Muldoon, etc.) but BC (Flutie, etc) simply skyrocketed in the 1-A rankings. More than one older alum has been completely fooled into thinking we got worse after ‘81 (by noting we moved to 1-AA and looking only at the subsequent annual HC-BC scores). LOL
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Post by timholycross on Jan 12, 2023 16:58:33 GMT -5
Had the BC series continued a couple more years, HC would have been in the ballgame at least once in my opinion.
Like their rise in the early 80s, the Eagles fell back considerably by the end of the decade, resulting in the dismissal of Jack Bicknell.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 12, 2023 19:11:46 GMT -5
Had the BC series continued a couple more years, HC would have been in the ballgame at least once in my opinion. Like their rise in the early 80s, the Eagles fell back considerably by the end of the decade, resulting in the dismissal of Jack Bicknell. ’87 we were at another 1-AA peak and BC was relatively down at 5-6. But they had a couple of close losses (7 or less to USC and Notre Dame) and beat ranked Tennessee. They were actually still pretty good (and at one point that year were ranked 19 in the nation.) I think they would have crushed us. As they had done in ‘86. After that they went sharply down hill but we slipped even more sharply (our schollie kids were gone).
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Post by efg72 on Jan 12, 2023 19:30:45 GMT -5
Thank you to the great President and BOT, yet another brilliant misguided ego decision
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Post by mm67 on Jan 12, 2023 19:45:45 GMT -5
There was an enormous discrepancy in size, speed and talent level between the two teams. Hope to see a different picture in '23.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 12, 2023 21:38:57 GMT -5
Look Brooks loved the school and in some ways he was a special gift to the community Like all of us he had human flaws He wanted to believe the world understood the greatness of his efforts and the institution known as Holy Cross Unfortunately for others It neither understood nor cared Internally his leadership gave us a flawed admissions team and a drop in rankings It damaged our public reputation and set us back decades in athletic performance And today we face a difficult path to recover because we aren’t the Ivy he wanted for the school We are special and need to be proud of what and who we are Yes, the product is special and offers our community significantly more than the Ivy League image Go Holy Cross and look forward to the vision and execution of VR and the current leadership
“The truth is like a lion. You don't have to defend it. Let it loose. It will defend itself.” - St. Augustine
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Post by hiltonheadcrusader on Jan 12, 2023 22:39:28 GMT -5
Look Brooks loved the school and in some ways he was a special gift to the community Like all of us he had human flaws He wanted to believe the world understood the greatness of his efforts and the institution known as Holy Cross Unfortunately for others It neither understood nor cared Internally his leadership gave us a flawed admissions team and a drop in rankings It damaged our public reputation and set us back decades in athletic performance And today we face a difficult path to recover because we aren’t the Ivy he wanted for the school We are special and need to be proud of what and who we are Yes, the product is special and offers our community significantly more than the Ivy League image Go Holy Cross and look forward to the vision and execution of VR and the current leadership “The truth is like a lion. You don't have to defend it. Let it loose. It will defend itself.” - St. Augustine Holy Cross was on the verge of bankruptcy when Father Brooks took the reins. He righted the ship and saved the school. He then took the lead in recruiting black students and de facto desegregated HC…a landmark achievement in the great history of alma mater. Father Brooks was not perfect and in retrospect (imo) made some flawed decisions impacting athletics. That said, he was a great man, Catholic and Crusader. The three jesuits who followed him fell far short in many regards.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 12, 2023 22:58:04 GMT -5
Which of the 2023 OOC opponents are the tomato cans, Merrimack 8-3, BC (FBS), Yale 8-2, Harvard 6-4, Army (FBS)?
I understand the point that our combined PL and OOC schedule may be considered less challenging than some FCS teams, but what HC can control is the OOC opponents and I think the 2023 schedule is great. Four century long traditional opponents and a new in-state Catholic foe that fortunately for us is on the way up.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 13, 2023 8:17:46 GMT -5
Look Brooks loved the school and in some ways he was a special gift to the community Like all of us he had human flaws He wanted to believe the world understood the greatness of his efforts and the institution known as Holy Cross Unfortunately for others It neither understood nor cared Internally his leadership gave us a flawed admissions team and a drop in rankings It damaged our public reputation and set us back decades in athletic performance And today we face a difficult path to recover because we aren’t the Ivy he wanted for the school We are special and need to be proud of what and who we are Yes, the product is special and offers our community significantly more than the Ivy League image Go Holy Cross and look forward to the vision and execution of VR and the current leadership “The truth is like a lion. You don't have to defend it. Let it loose. It will defend itself.” - St. Augustine Holy Cross was on the verge of bankruptcy when Father Brooks took the reins. He righted the ship and saved the school. He then took the lead in recruiting black students and de facto desegregated HC…a landmark achievement in the great history of alma mater. Father Brooks was not perfect and in retrospect (imo) made some flawed decisions impacting athletics. That said, he was a great man, Catholic and Crusader. The three jesuits who followed him fell far short in many regards. Agree
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 13, 2023 15:32:07 GMT -5
No matter what you think of Clarence Thomas '71 now, when he was getting the kitchen sink thrown at him during his confirmation hearing, Father Brooks stood up for him and it made me feel very proud of Father and Holy Cross.
I can't recall any of the three Jesuit successors defending Holy Cross or an alumnus in quite the same way. It's mostly due to the times but it seemed the most recent Jesuit Presudent, Father B. was on a long apology tour during his tenure. He did not have the gravitas of Father Brooks but Catholic Priests in general don't occupy the same moral high ground as Priests did prior to the Church sex abuse scandal.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 13, 2023 17:49:42 GMT -5
I've been a big proponent of Holy Cross presidents being alums like Fr. Brooks. They "get" Holy Cross and the history and tradition (yes, makes me "old fashioned'). None of his successors, none, went to Holy Cross. Not Fr. Reedy. (Not Frank Vellaccio, but he gets a waiver as an interim). Not Fr. McFarland. Not Fr. Boroughs. We now have Vince Rougeau. While not an alum, heck, he's not even a Jesuit or a priest, he seems to "get" Holy Cross better than all of his immediate predecessors. Time will tell.
None of our presidents were bad per se, they just never quite got in sync with the College IMHO.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 13, 2023 18:13:40 GMT -5
No matter what you think of Clarence Thomas '71 now, when he was getting the kitchen sink thrown at him during his confirmation hearing, Father Brooks stood up for him and it made me feel very proud of Father and Holy Cross. I can't recall any of the three Jesuit successors defending Holy Cross or an alumnus in quite the same way. It's mostly due to the times but it seemed the most recent Jesuit Presudent, Father B. was on a long apology tour during his tenure. He did not have the gravitas of Father Brooks but Catholic Priests in general don't occupy the same moral high ground as Priests did prior to the Church sex abuse scandal. Most had few values they would fight for-Brooks was all in for all he valued if you could define mentor and friend he was the best but I still think McDermott and his athletic decisions were way different✝️✝️✝️😇🍀
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Post by CHC8485 on Jan 14, 2023 11:00:15 GMT -5
I believe Ann McDermott became director of admissions in 1994 - not sure when in 1994 but at worst the appointment was made 6 months before Fr. Brooks retired. He may have been responsible for the initial appointment, but not for keeping her in that position for 25+ years.
Changes in the perceived value proposition of higher education, the sexual abuse scandals in the Catholic Church, and the expanded options in higher ed opportunities for Catholic 18 year olds, all shrunk the pool of applicants for Holy Cross. Ann M, Fr. Brooks' successors, and 20+ years of Boards of Trustees inability to, or worse persistence not to, respond to these changes are far more responsible for any admissions decline than simply appointing Ann to the position.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 14, 2023 23:17:51 GMT -5
I believe Ann McDermott became director of admissions in 1994 - not sure when in 1994 but at worst the appointment was made 6 months before Fr. Brooks retired. He may have been responsible for the initial appointment, but not for keeping her in that position for 25+ years. Changes in the perceived value proposition of higher education, the sexual abuse scandals in the Catholic Church, and the expanded options in higher ed opportunities for Catholic 18 year olds, all shrunk the pool of applicants for Holy Cross. Ann M, Fr. Brooks' successors, and 20+ years of Boards of Trustees inability to, or worse persistence not to, respond to these changes are far more responsible for any admissions decline than simply appointing Ann to the position. Responses to these macro trends: 1) Perceived value proposition of higher education. Yes a four year liberal arts degree is priced more in real inflation adjusted dollars than it was in 1994 and probably perceived as less valuable than it was in 1994. What should have been the correct response? Cut expenses to lower tuition? Change the model from liberal arts only or undergraduate only? Add an on-line school for the masses and advertise on billboards in Scranton like the University of Scranton advertises on billboards in Worcester for their on-line programs? 2) Sexual abuse in the Church and expanded higher ed options for Catholic 18 year olds: Should HC have gone non-sectarian like many fine institutions have? Boston University was founded by Methodists but is now non-sectarian. Bucknell and Colgate were founded by Babtists. Lehigh was originally affiliated with the Episcopal Church. Holy Cross' sin appears to be that it valued it's tradition, believed in it's model and was proud of it's Catholic Jesuit identity. The school didn't fundamentally change in response to Macro trends but they should always be reviewing options.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 16, 2023 11:59:12 GMT -5
I know a ton of private universities dropped their religious affiliation during the 20th Century as pointed out here-- Duke 100 years ago was called Trinity. Fairly certain Harvard was sectarian when first founded as well.
But it seems like Catholics have held onto tradition. I can't recall many Catholic colleges and universities dropping affiliation. Only one I know that went secular somewhat recently is Marist which dropped the affiliation in 2003. Until recently I thought Wagner was Catholic as well, mainly bc so many kids from Catholic schools in Staten Island attend there. Not sure if they dropped or just never were religiously affiliated.
Georgetown and BC in recent years have definitely gone out of there way to appear more secular to the masses. I don't think Catholic identity is the problem. As has been pointed out, Villanova has been skyrocketing in rankings and admissions in the past 15 years. Was definitely easier to get into VU than HC when I was looking at schools in the mid-2000s.
I think a) Worcester just isnt that exciting to an outsider and b) liberal arts schools just aren't that "in" when it comes to the demographic that tends to apply to Holy Cross.
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Jan 16, 2023 13:11:58 GMT -5
Worcester, for all of its warts, is significantly more exciting than South Bend (I lived off campus 2/4 years).
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 16, 2023 13:17:58 GMT -5
I know a ton of private universities dropped their religious affiliation during the 20th Century as pointed out here-- Duke 100 years ago was called Trinity. Fairly certain Harvard was sectarian when first founded as well. But it seems like Catholics have held onto tradition. I can't recall many Catholic colleges and universities dropping affiliation. Only one I know that went secular somewhat recently is Marist which dropped the affiliation in 2003. Until recently I thought Wagner was Catholic as well, mainly bc so many kids from Catholic schools in Staten Island attend there. Not sure if they dropped or just never were religiously affiliated. Georgetown and BC in recent years have definitely gone out of there way to appear more secular to the masses. I don't think Catholic identity is the problem. As has been pointed out, Villanova has been skyrocketing in rankings and admissions in the past 15 years. Was definitely easier to get into VU than HC when I was looking at schools in the mid-2000s. I think a) Worcester just isnt that exciting to an outsider and b) liberal arts schools just aren't that "in" when it comes to the demographic that tends to apply to Holy Cross. Mercy College was founded in 1950 and only a few years later went secular. The sisters continued to teach there, but they found it easier for students to get financial aid as a secular college.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 16, 2023 13:43:11 GMT -5
Wikipedia provides a list of a dozen or so colleges that were once Catholic but became secular-Marymount and Manhattanville are a couple of examples that posters may know
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Post by hcpride on Jan 16, 2023 13:52:03 GMT -5
I know a ton of private universities dropped their religiousI think a) Worcester just isn't that exciting to an outsider and b) liberal arts schools just aren't that "in" when it comes to the demographic that tends to apply to Holy Cross. Yes. And…while there are still some high school kids eyeballing Catholic schools nowadays who are interested in studying the liberal arts that does not necessarily equate to a burning desire to attend a Catholic school that ONLY teaches the liberal arts.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 16, 2023 14:32:29 GMT -5
I know a ton of private universities dropped their religiousI think a) Worcester just isn't that exciting to an outsider and b) liberal arts schools just aren't that "in" when it comes to the demographic that tends to apply to Holy Cross. Yes. And…while there are still some high school kids eyeballing Catholic schools nowadays who are interested in studying the liberal arts that does not necessarily equate to a burning desire to attend a Catholic school that ONLY teaches the liberal arts. Your excellent stats about which schools HC applicants also apply to indicates that few pick HC for it's actual category of national liberal arts college. But because many applicants apply to other Catholic Coleges, our Catholic identity doesn't seem to be a deal breaker for many. If HC Admissions has been trying to position us with the "Little Ivies" that are ahead of us in the USNWR rankings, it doesn't seem effective. But we might be backing into a sharp student body who pick us in comparison with our real world admissions competition, schools like BC, PC, Villanova, etc.
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Post by alum on Jan 16, 2023 15:15:07 GMT -5
We are not limited to the types of students we try to attract. The place can be sold to kids who want a Catholic college AND kids who want a liberal arts one. We know we can get kids who want to be premed and play the cello and we certainly can try to get accounting majors who want to be in plays in Prior. FWIW, I think that we are meeting the customers where they are with Prior, the new fieldhouse, the new apartments, and, hopefully the modernized Easy Street dorms. I think that those are more imporant than we might have thought. As far as I can see, the only kids we absolutely cannot get right now are those who want a perennial men's March Madness team. But we can work on that, too.
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Post by HC92 on Jan 16, 2023 15:25:05 GMT -5
Worcester, for all of its warts, is significantly more exciting than South Bend (I lived off campus 2/4 years). Yes, but that before Mayor Pete . . .
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Post by HC92 on Jan 16, 2023 15:31:56 GMT -5
We are not limited to the types of students we try to attract. The place can be sold to kids who want a Catholic college AND kids who want a liberal arts one. We know we can get kids who want to be premed and play the cello and we certainly can try to get accounting majors who want to be in plays in Prior. FWIW, I think that we are meeting the customers where they are with Prior, the new fieldhouse, the new apartments, and, hopefully the modernized Easy Street dorms. I think that those are more imporant than we might have thought. As far as I can see, the only kids we absolutely cannot get right now are those who want a perennial men's March Madness team. But we can work on that, too. The overwhelming majority of kids we get to come identify as Catholic. A much smaller percentage attend mass, leading to the cancellation of the 10 pm Sunday mass which was attended by a ton of students 30 years ago. We may be in the worst place of all . . . having kids rule us out because we’re perceived as “too Catholic” while not being particularly attractive to those who want a school with a strong Catholic identity (which is not a problem unique to us as most schools endeavor to minimize their religious affiliation).
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Post by jkh67 on Jan 16, 2023 17:45:37 GMT -5
HC will not be taken lightly by BC or Army. The days of sneaking up and grabbing a win against an FBS opponent are gone. The FBS schools will be primed and rarin' to go. Also HC will have a target on its back in FCS games. My West Point grad son-in-law was one very cocky dude as we drove up to the Point in 2001 for the HC game. He's singing a different tune this year, showing plenty of respect for our boys and seeing next year's game as a tough one for the Black Knights. Their football team will be taking us very seriously I have no doubt.
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