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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 26, 2023 7:23:00 GMT -5
Rolen getting in makes me think this is becoming the Hall of Very Good.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 26, 2023 7:48:42 GMT -5
I think Rolen (the only selection) was definitely helped by the lower quality (non-steroid guys) of those on the ballot this year. And he just barely scraped by in any case.
He was a very good player for a good number of years and certainly is not the worst player in the Hall. (This is my version of a tepid endorsement.)
Next year Andre Beltre is on the ballot…a slam dunk first ballot guy.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 26, 2023 7:51:53 GMT -5
Jeff Kent is one of the best offensive second baseman in the game's history. A damn shame he didn't get in.
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Post by Tom on Jan 26, 2023 8:44:01 GMT -5
I know Joe Carter ended the season with a walk-off for the Blue Jays in 1993, but Mazeroski is the only one to ever do it in game 7. (excluding the millions of kids who hit walk off game 7 WS homers in their back yard imaginations) I have a nagging doubt that someone else ended the World Series with a walk off since Carter, but I can't think of who it could be Edgar Renteria in 1997 in the 11th inning of Game 7 and Luis Gonzalez in Game 7 in 2001 in the ninth. I knew there were some other season ending hits out there, The singles just aren't as memorable. I know that prior to Joe Carter, Mazeroaki was the only person to hit a World Series clinching walk off base hit of any kind - be it game 4, 5, 6, or 7 |
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 26, 2023 9:14:56 GMT -5
Rolen getting in makes me think this is becoming the Hall of Very Good. Rolen was a "very good" offensive player. But he was elite with the glove. Top 10 3B all-time by most metrics. Sort of the opposite of HOF 3B Chipper Jones, who was an elite offensive player, but a below average fielder. |
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 26, 2023 10:58:28 GMT -5
Jeff Kent is one of the best offensive second baseman in the game's history. A damn shame he didn't get in. Kent should be in. Hopefully next ballot. |
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Post by alum on Jan 26, 2023 11:39:00 GMT -5
Jeff Kent is one of the best offensive second baseman in the game's history. A damn shame he didn't get in. Kent should be in. Hopefully next ballot. Should it matter that he was a second baseman when he never won a Gold Glove? If not, I think he gets compared to hitters with no consideration that he was a better hitter than other second baseman. His line is .290/.356/.500/.855. OPS+ is 123 He hit 377 home runs in 17 years with 9537 plate appearances. Has 55.4 for WAR Is he better than Dwight Evans who is not in the Hall? His line is 272/.370/470/.840 with OPS+ of 127 and 385 home runs in 20 years. 10569 plate appearances---and 8 Gold Gloves. Has a WAR of 67.2. |
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jan 26, 2023 11:51:28 GMT -5
Kent should be in. Hopefully next ballot. Should it matter that he was a second baseman when he never won a Gold Glove? If not, I think he gets compared to hitters with no consideration that he was a better hitter than other second baseman. His line is .290/.356/.500/.855. OPS+ is 123 He hit 377 home runs in 17 years with 9537 plate appearances. Has 55.4 for WAR Is he better than Dwight Evans who is not in the Hall? His line is 272/.370/470/.840 with OPS+ of 127 and 385 home runs in 20 years. 10569 plate appearances---and 8 Gold Gloves. Has a WAR of 67.2. I really don't follow this stuff much any more, but when I heard Rolen got in for some reason the first guy I thought of was Dwight Evans. I guess because of his balance between offense and defense. |
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hc1998
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 226
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Post by hc1998 on Jan 26, 2023 12:02:08 GMT -5
To address the two players this thread primarily focused on:
1. Beltran-there is a large segment of voters that believe in it being a special honor to be voted in your first year of eligibility and accordingly withold votes based on not being "first ballot worthy" but being "hall worthy"...I think even without the cheating scandal, Beltran would have fallen victim to this. Other writers have publicly said that they would withhold a vote on him a year or two as "punishment" for the scandal, but would ultimately vote for him. I think getting 44% in his first year on the ballot, when he is not "first ballot worthy" and the cheating scandal is fresher in writer's heads is a strong indication that he will ultimately get in before his 10 years are up;
2. Rolen-I don't think he is a hall of famer, and I would not have voted for him...but at the same rate I do not think his election is that egregious that it upsets me.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 26, 2023 16:40:09 GMT -5
To address the two players this thread primarily focused on: 1. Beltran-there is a large segment of voters that believe in it being a special honor to be voted in your first year of eligibility and accordingly withold votes based on not being "first ballot worthy" but being "hall worthy"...I think even without the cheating scandal, Beltran would have fallen victim to this. Other writers have publicly said that they would withhold a vote on him a year or two as "punishment" for the scandal, but would ultimately vote for him. I think getting 44% in his first year on the ballot, when he is not "first ballot worthy" and the cheating scandal is fresher in writer's heads is a strong indication that he will ultimately get in before his 10 years are up;2. Rolen-I don't think he is a hall of famer, and I would not have voted for him...but at the same rate I do not think his election is that egregious that it upsets me. This makes sense -- but why "only a year or two of punishment" for the blatant cheating scandal versus "not voting for steroid users (unless their name is David Ortiz or Pedro Martinez) ever"? No logic. And the whole "not first ballot" thing has been going on for decades. I would be willing to bet Jeff Kent jumps next year. Can't remember if he was on the 'roids list or not, though. |
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 26, 2023 16:44:22 GMT -5
Dick Allen—when will he get the nod? He belongs.
Bobby Grich?
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Post by clmetsfan on Jan 26, 2023 17:25:45 GMT -5
To address the two players this thread primarily focused on: 1. Beltran-there is a large segment of voters that believe in it being a special honor to be voted in your first year of eligibility and accordingly withold votes based on not being "first ballot worthy" but being "hall worthy"...I think even without the cheating scandal, Beltran would have fallen victim to this. Other writers have publicly said that they would withhold a vote on him a year or two as "punishment" for the scandal, but would ultimately vote for him. I think getting 44% in his first year on the ballot, when he is not "first ballot worthy" and the cheating scandal is fresher in writer's heads is a strong indication that he will ultimately get in before his 10 years are up;2. Rolen-I don't think he is a hall of famer, and I would not have voted for him...but at the same rate I do not think his election is that egregious that it upsets me. This makes sense -- but why "only a year or two of punishment" for the blatant cheating scandal versus "not voting for steroid users (unless their name is David Ortiz or Pedro Martinez) ever"? No logic. And the whole "not first ballot" thing has been going on for decades. I would be willing to bet Jeff Kent jumps next year. Can't remember if he was on the 'roids list or not, though. I don't recall any rumors around Kent, nor was there a marked change in his body along the way ala Bonds and Sosa, but there is a very interesting jump in his offensive production in 1998, his second year as Bonds's teammate. He had been a very consistent above-average-but-not-great hitter every year prior to that, with an OPS+ ranging from 101 to 111 in his first six years in the league, before jumping to 142, 125, 162, 131, 147, and 119 in his next six years. I don't think that jump should affect his candidacy in anyway, but it does raise an eyebrow or two. As for the jump next year, this was his 10th and final time on the writers ballot. It'll be interesting to see if the new Players Committee pushes his candidacy forward in the coming years. |
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Post by clmetsfan on Jan 26, 2023 17:32:13 GMT -5
Kent should be in. Hopefully next ballot. Should it matter that he was a second baseman when he never won a Gold Glove? If not, I think he gets compared to hitters with no consideration that he was a better hitter than other second baseman. His line is .290/.356/.500/.855. OPS+ is 123 He hit 377 home runs in 17 years with 9537 plate appearances. Has 55.4 for WAR Is he better than Dwight Evans who is not in the Hall? His line is 272/.370/470/.840 with OPS+ of 127 and 385 home runs in 20 years. 10569 plate appearances---and 8 Gold Gloves. Has a WAR of 67.2. Kent basically played 2B because he didn't have the arm for 3B or the range for SS. I'm of the belief that the Giants would have happily moved Kent to first if they didn't already have a Gold Glover there (JT Snow) for Kent's entire tenure in SF. Had he been on an AL team, he'd almost certainly have been a full-time DH and would be judged very differently. |
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 27, 2023 8:35:51 GMT -5
Should it matter that he was a second baseman when he never won a Gold Glove? If not, I think he gets compared to hitters with no consideration that he was a better hitter than other second baseman. His line is .290/.356/.500/.855. OPS+ is 123 He hit 377 home runs in 17 years with 9537 plate appearances. Has 55.4 for WAR Is he better than Dwight Evans who is not in the Hall? His line is 272/.370/470/.840 with OPS+ of 127 and 385 home runs in 20 years. 10569 plate appearances---and 8 Gold Gloves. Has a WAR of 67.2. Kent basically played 2B because he didn't have the arm for 3B or the range for SS. I'm of the belief that the Giants would have happily moved Kent to first if they didn't already have a Gold Glover there (JT Snow) for Kent's entire tenure in SF. Had he been on an AL team, he'd almost certainly have been a full-time DH and would be judged very differently. While I don't think Kent was that much of a plodder where he would've been a full-time DH in the AL (or today's NL), he likely would've played more than a handful of games there. Kent definitely had the bat for 1B too, as you point out. I have early memories of him on the Mets in 1995 and 1996 before he got traded to Cleveland for Carlos Baerga. I seem to remember he wasn't necessarily a full time 2B but more of an "everything but SS" infielder. Sort of like a less-slick-fielding DJ LeMiehieu. I also think that Ortiz election a few years back basically shattered the "full-time DH" ceiling. Edgar Martinez had not been voted in for years but was eventually elected because the writers realized they needed to grease the skids for Big Papi, who easily crashed through both the "DH" and "steroid" class ceilings. Harold Baines was the third guy elected via veterans' committee that was more or less a full time DH for much of his career, especially the last decade where I don't even think he even cameo'd in the outfield for years. Unlike Papi or Edgar who would at least put on a 1B glove during interleague. |
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Post by Tom on Jan 27, 2023 12:10:28 GMT -5
This makes sense -- but why "only a year or two of punishment" for the blatant cheating scandal versus "not voting for steroid users (unless their name is David Ortiz or Pedro Martinez) ever"? No logic. And the whole "not first ballot" thing has been going on for decades. I would be willing to bet Jeff Kent jumps next year. Can't remember if he was on the 'roids list or not, though. I don't recall any rumors around Kent, nor was there a marked change in his body along the way ala Bonds and Sosa, but there is a very interesting jump in his offensive production in 1998, his second year as Bonds's teammate. He had been a very consistent above-average-but-not-great hitter every year prior to that, with an OPS+ ranging from 101 to 111 in his first six years in the league, before jumping to 142, 125, 162, 131, 147, and 119 in his next six years. I don't think that jump should affect his candidacy in anyway, but it does raise an eyebrow or two. As for the jump next year, this was his 10th and final time on the writers ballot. It'll be interesting to see if the new Players Committee pushes his candidacy forward in the coming years. I did not know that. KInd of reminds me of Palmiero and his jump about the time he teamed up with Canseco. I look at those guys worse. Bonds and Clemens could have been a HoF'ers without the juice. The juice brought it to an unprecedented levels of things like 700 HR or 7 Cy Youngs, but they were superstars. Palmiero was a good player by no 3000/500 guy without the juice. No I'm lumping Kent in with him |
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 27, 2023 13:29:01 GMT -5
Harold Baines-- Baseball-Reference has him as the #76 right fielder , right behind Wally Moses and just ahead of Carl Furillo, two fine ballplayers but not HOFers. Baines was a good hitter but I was very surprised when he made the Hall. On the other hand, Edgar Martinez was a tremendous offensive force-just outstanding, Just looking at OBP, for example, he is #21 all-time, and he had good power as well. He is #35 in all-time on OPS
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Post by hchoops on Jan 27, 2023 13:50:00 GMT -5
I don't recall any rumors around Kent, nor was there a marked change in his body along the way ala Bonds and Sosa, but there is a very interesting jump in his offensive production in 1998, his second year as Bonds's teammate. He had been a very consistent above-average-but-not-great hitter every year prior to that, with an OPS+ ranging from 101 to 111 in his first six years in the league, before jumping to 142, 125, 162, 131, 147, and 119 in his next six years. I don't think that jump should affect his candidacy in anyway, but it does raise an eyebrow or two. As for the jump next year, this was his 10th and final time on the writers ballot. It'll be interesting to see if the new Players Committee pushes his candidacy forward in the coming years. I did not know that. KInd of reminds me of Palmiero and his jump about the time he teamed up with Canseco. I look at those guys worse. Bonds and Clemens could have been a HoF'ers without the juice. The juice brought it to an unprecedented levels of things like 700 HR or 7 Cy Youngs, but they were superstars. Palmiero was a good player by no 3000/500 guy without the juice. No I'm lumping Kent in with him Nothing but barely circumstantial evidence for Kent. Evidence seems far more blatant for Palmeiro lumping them.seems unjust |
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Post by hchoops on Jan 27, 2023 13:56:12 GMT -5
Harold Baines-- Baseball-Reference has him as the #76 right fielder , right behind Wally Moses and just ahead of Carl Furillo, two fine ballplayers but not HOFers. Baines was a good hitter but I was very surprised when he made the Hall. On the other hand, Edgar Martinez was a tremendous offensive force-just outstanding, Just looking at OBP, for example, he is #21 all-time, and he had good power as well. He is #35 in all-time on OPS Biased as a Brooklyn Dodger fan, but the Reading Rifle(Furillo) had that nickname since he was the best right field glove and arm of his era. And from Reading, Penn. A solid bat in a stacked Hall of Fame order: Reese, Snider, Jackie, Campy, Gil(finally) Did not see Baines much, but he certainly did not compare to Furillo defensively. |
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Post by hchoops on Jan 27, 2023 14:41:14 GMT -5
Again, a Mets bias, but Hernandez was an amazing glove and a consistent bat. More deserving than Rolex.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 27, 2023 14:53:47 GMT -5
I had a couple of years in St Louis with Keith Hernandez including the magical 1982 WS winning season, He was a sensational fielder and very, very good hitter. That was one of the best, perhaps #1, defensive infields of all-time with Hernandez, the spectacular Ozzie Smith, and Tommy Herr, and Ken Oberkfell , Some might make a strong case for the Robinson-Belanger Orioles--would make for a good debate.
Re: the Brooklyn Dodgers, I'm not from Brooklyn and O'Malley made his heinous move west when I was 4YO, but I've always been fascinated by that team's post-war period.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 27, 2023 15:06:43 GMT -5
The Brooklyn Dodgers Hodges, Robinson, Reese and Billy Cox infield was very good.
No Gold Gloves Awards given then to compare
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Post by hchoops on Jan 27, 2023 15:10:38 GMT -5
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 27, 2023 16:32:54 GMT -5
I don't recall any rumors around Kent, nor was there a marked change in his body along the way ala Bonds and Sosa, but there is a very interesting jump in his offensive production in 1998, his second year as Bonds's teammate. He had been a very consistent above-average-but-not-great hitter every year prior to that, with an OPS+ ranging from 101 to 111 in his first six years in the league, before jumping to 142, 125, 162, 131, 147, and 119 in his next six years. I don't think that jump should affect his candidacy in anyway, but it does raise an eyebrow or two. As for the jump next year, this was his 10th and final time on the writers ballot. It'll be interesting to see if the new Players Committee pushes his candidacy forward in the coming years. I did not know that. KInd of reminds me of Palmiero and his jump about the time he teamed up with Canseco. I look at those guys worse. Bonds and Clemens could have been a HoF'ers without the juice. The juice brought it to an unprecedented levels of things like 700 HR or 7 Cy Youngs, but they were superstars. Palmiero was a good player by no 3000/500 guy without the juice. No I'm lumping Kent in with him There were never any substantiated rumors surrounding Kent. Nor was he on the leaked list of 103 players who tested positive in 2003. So presumably, he was not juicing even a year ahead of the MLB drug testing program. Anyone not voting for Kent because of suspicion of steroid use would be treating him completely unfairly. I think the fact that he played in a ridiculously offensive era makes his numbers seem slightly less impressive, his glove was below average and he had the whole "first ballot" stigma going against him. I think he gets in soon. |
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 27, 2023 16:39:42 GMT -5
I did not know that. KInd of reminds me of Palmiero and his jump about the time he teamed up with Canseco. I look at those guys worse. Bonds and Clemens could have been a HoF'ers without the juice. The juice brought it to an unprecedented levels of things like 700 HR or 7 Cy Youngs, but they were superstars. Palmiero was a good player by no 3000/500 guy without the juice. No I'm lumping Kent in with him Nothing but barely circumstantial evidence for Kent. Evidence seems far more blatant for Palmeiro lumping them.seems unjust Agree. Especially since Palmeiro tested positive at least twice, the first time in 2003 (the list that was leaked in 2009) and the second time in 2005 just days after his 3,000th hit, which was by then a violation of MLB drug policy resulting in suspension. It was a suspension that ended Palmeiro's career. Palmeiro is also beyond unelectable considering that he a) tested positive TWICE with the 2nd one being after MLB started disciplining positive tests and b) because he stood in front of Congress prior to the 2005 season, pointed a finger, and denied having ever done steroids (this was already a lie since he had tested positive in 2003 but list hadn't yet been leaked). It's funny how people try to point to statistical progressions and go "aha, this guy started juicing at this point" when I recall people pointing at Palmeiro and highlighting him as definitely being a non-steroid guy, prior to the bust, because of how consistent his numbers were for so long. If there's one "steroid guy" who shouldn't see the HOF ever in history, it's Rafael Palmeiro. |
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hc1998
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 226
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Post by hc1998 on Jan 29, 2023 8:41:03 GMT -5
To address the two players this thread primarily focused on: 1. Beltran-there is a large segment of voters that believe in it being a special honor to be voted in your first year of eligibility and accordingly withold votes based on not being "first ballot worthy" but being "hall worthy"...I think even without the cheating scandal, Beltran would have fallen victim to this. Other writers have publicly said that they would withhold a vote on him a year or two as "punishment" for the scandal, but would ultimately vote for him. I think getting 44% in his first year on the ballot, when he is not "first ballot worthy" and the cheating scandal is fresher in writer's heads is a strong indication that he will ultimately get in before his 10 years are up;2. Rolen-I don't think he is a hall of famer, and I would not have voted for him...but at the same rate I do not think his election is that egregious that it upsets me. This makes sense -- but why "only a year or two of punishment" for the blatant cheating scandal versus "not voting for steroid users (unless their name is David Ortiz or Pedro Martinez) ever"? No logic. And the whole "not first ballot" thing has been going on for decades. I would be willing to bet Jeff Kent jumps next year. Can't remember if he was on the 'roids list or not, though. I think the distinction is that players and teams have looked for loopholes and advantages to take within the course of the game for years...the Astros just took it way too far. Similarly, while the cheating likely helped the players and their stats, it did nothing to prolong a career...getting a likely 400 hr hitter to 500 homers, etc. As someone else has since pointed out, Kent wasn't a first ballot candidate, in fact it was his last. I've always argued he should get more support than he has, but I've come short of claiming he should make the hall...he's one of those players that I'd be ok with him in or out, so I am not necessarily upset he didn't make it, just upset more writers didn't recognize his career. His "positional home run leader" title gets a bit watered down though when one considers his defense...he was a below average second basemen, and if he played ANY other position (except maybe SS) he probably would get even less support than he does now. I also noted an interesting comment on Hernandez following Rolen's election. I think today's voters would certainly give Hernandez the requisite support (but also remember, at least part of his lack of support is due to his involvement in the Pittsburgh drug trials...granted I think we'd forgive quicker today). I also saw a similar post arguing for Mark Grace in light of Rolen's election...if you look at the numbers, its not a ridiculous argument..granted part of Rolen's cache was his otherworldly defense...but Grace was still very good in the field, having won a few gold gloves, but he was not a once in a generation fielder like Rolen. |
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