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Post by mm67 on Feb 18, 2023 19:35:39 GMT -5
There was no desperation. Over the years it was quite apparent that HC football was in a no-man's land. From the late 40's onward the overall trend was down despite some successes.Certainly HC was not competitive w/BC & Syracuse and Army. Unlimited substitutions( rule change1960's) with huge rosters which HC never could match. HC was nowhere on the level of the Lambert Trophy teams Pitt, W.Va. BC Penn State, Syracuse Army, Navy). And, the Lambert Cup was not on the horizon.HC's cohort at that time was Colgate, and the IL There was a brief dalliance with the Yankee Conference. "The Cross is back" foolishness in the 70's. Oh, please.HC football would not have survived as a Div.1 independent. That's the reality. One could argue the great Fr. Brooks in fact saved Div 1 football at HC. Unfortunately increased emphasis on football by the IL schools pushed HC and Colgate (did not traditionally award athletic scholarships) & the Pennsylvania PL schools (formerly Div2) to athletic scholarships. Brooks has a building and a music hall named after him, no? Mm67 you are among the best, brightest, and most thoughtful posters, and yes I stop and reflect after each of your posts!✝️✝️✝️✝️ However, the last sentence and the Brooks vision speaks volumes about his intention to reframe athletics at our school Unlike most posters and alums, I blame him for the athletic and academic reputation failures of the last four decades- he had no plan B, C or D and that is part of leadership. With that said my rejections of his leadership don't solve the issues we face at Holy Cross to build the right endowment and the best future for academics and athletics at our great school. Let's stop the adulation of a generous but flawed President, and figure out how we move forward to ensure we keep the best Holy Cross possible. Hi, Once I read your glowing introduction I knew I was in trouble. Obviously, you are an extremely bright, sophisticated man. I closely read your every post. I find your posts illuminating and certainly thought provoking. Is it possible that you might be overstating your case against the good Father a wee bit? His vision for HC did not come fully to fruition. I should not have brought him up as the mere mention of his name triggers a negative shout from some. My bad. He's gone. However... Tis not just to speak too harshly of the dead.? Let him rest. I'm trying to look forward and not wade too deeply in the waters of the past.(my original sin) HC has great potential for greater heights academically & athletically as well. Loving alums such as yourself would not allow it to happen any other way. Peace
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Post by trimster on Feb 18, 2023 19:35:42 GMT -5
We were playing a nice football schedule in the 1980’s prior to Father Brooks’ disastrous Colonial/Patriot decision. Take 1984, for example: URI, UMASS, Harvard, Dartmouth, Colgate, UCONN, Brown, BU, UNH, BC. A very nice schedule and our team was very good during this Carter period. That particular year we got to # 2 but finished “down” at #15. And our school’s academic reputation and ranking were strong. I’ve always thought Father Brooks’ Colonial/PL non-schollie initiative was driven by some sort of unrequited Ivy love. I think just as strong as his desire to be an Ivy was his belief students shouldn't get a free ride to HC because of their ability to put a ball in a hoop, throw strikes or tote the pigskin. The PL provided him with a means to eliminate athletic schollies. As far as the love affair with the Ivies, my friend pointed out how ironic it was he wanted to join a club that was a major reason Catholic Colleges like HC and BC were created.
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Post by hcpride on Feb 18, 2023 20:10:35 GMT -5
We were playing a nice football schedule in the 1980’s prior to Father Brooks’ disastrous Colonial/Patriot decision. Take 1984, for example: URI, UMASS, Harvard, Dartmouth, Colgate, UCONN, Brown, BU, UNH, BC. A very nice schedule and our team was very good during this Carter period. That particular year we got to # 2 but finished “down” at #15. And our school’s academic reputation and ranking were strong. I’ve always thought Father Brooks’ Colonial/PL non-schollie initiative was driven by some sort of unrequited Ivy love. I think just as strong as his desire to be an Ivy was his belief students shouldn't get a free ride to HC because of their ability to put a ball in a hoop, throw strikes or tote the pigskin. The PL provided him with a means to eliminate athletic schollies. As far as the love affair with the Ivies, my friend pointed out how ironic it was he wanted to join a club that was a major reason Catholic Colleges like HC and BC were created. It seems he wanted to see us in the Ivy League. Failing that, he wanted to ditch schollies so we’d play them more frequently in football so folks might mentally kinda associate us with them. The latter being as far-fetched as the former. The irony of the unrequited Ivy love is not lost upon those of us who know what the Ivies did to Catholic applicants many years ago.
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Post by timholycross on Feb 18, 2023 20:15:04 GMT -5
We were playing a nice football schedule in the 1980’s prior to Father Brooks’ disastrous Colonial/Patriot decision. Take 1984, for example: URI, UMASS, Harvard, Dartmouth, Colgate, UCONN, Brown, BU, UNH, BC. A very nice schedule and our team was very good during this Carter period. That particular year we got to # 2 but finished “down” at #15. And our school’s academic reputation and ranking were strong. I’ve always thought Father Brooks’ Colonial/PL non-schollie initiative was driven by some sort of unrequited Ivy love. I think just as strong as his desire to be an Ivy was his belief students shouldn't get a free ride to HC because of their ability to put a ball in a hoop, throw strikes or tote the pigskin. The PL provided him with a means to eliminate athletic schollies. As far as the love affair with the Ivies, my friend pointed out how ironic it was he wanted to join a club that was a major reason Catholic Colleges like HC and BC were created. But you can't do that in Division 1 without having practically unlimited aid money to give to all students. And the conference he'd have gladly joined in Division 3* wasn't offering membership. A paradox. *I guess he'd have welcomed an invite from the UAA as well as NESCAC, but it wasn't formed yet
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 18, 2023 20:40:19 GMT -5
We were playing a nice football schedule in the 1980’s prior to Father Brooks’ disastrous Colonial/Patriot decision. Take 1984, for example: URI, UMASS, Harvard, Dartmouth, Colgate, UCONN, Brown, BU, UNH, BC. A very nice schedule and our team was very good during this Carter period. That particular year we got to # 2 but finished “down” at #15. And our school’s academic reputation and ranking were strong. I’ve always thought Father Brooks’ Colonial/PL non-schollie initiative was driven by some sort of unrequited Ivy love. The 1984 schedule, including four of the six New England State Universities reflects HC's brief foray onto the Yankee Conference and the half life of future scheduled contests against Yankee Conference teams that were inked when a member. It was an attractive schedule. We could have competed apples to apples with the State U's in scholarship FB and BB but it's been mentioned before that HC would have had a difficult time competing in the non-scholarship sports as the by far smallest school in the Yankee Conference. IDK if HC ever had the opportunity to join the PL in all sports except FB and then eventually morph from the Yankee Conference to the CAA in FB, but that would have been interesting.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 18, 2023 20:45:30 GMT -5
What might have been goes into the was bucket
This is about the fall and the future
Whatever it is let's get it right✝️🏈🏀⚾️⚽️🥎🎾🏉🏐🏑🏒🥍🥅🤾🏽🏊♂️🏊♀️🚣♀️
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 18, 2023 20:48:38 GMT -5
Regarding going D-3. I can't imagine that ever came to a formal vote of the Trustees (anyone have documentation that it did?) or that it could have passed. I wonder if it ever even made it onto an agenda of a Trustee Meeting under "new business?" Or if a mention was ever recorded on any meeting minutes?
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 19, 2023 7:20:36 GMT -5
I’ve lost track but at what point did the BoT morph from being more than a rubber stamp for whatever the Jesuit president wanted, especially Fr. Brooks?
As recently as 5 +/- years ago they let Fr. Boroughs get rid of the Crusader mascot and logo as I was told there were a number of them that “weren’t happy” with that decision but “went along.”
So decades back, I don’t think the Board would have had much real say on these athletic decisions.
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Post by bigfan on Feb 19, 2023 7:32:19 GMT -5
Former AD Perry had us in the A10 for basketball until Brooks said NO.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 19, 2023 11:02:12 GMT -5
The siren song of grander athletics has an irresistible appeal to many. It always seems so easy, a no-brainer with the gold of fame & money at the end of the rainbow.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 19, 2023 11:26:28 GMT -5
So, you're saying we have to find a leprechaun? (3 more days to Ash Wednesday. Bear with me until then) It could be worse, you could be in the 1970 Class and get all my emails!
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Post by timholycross on Feb 19, 2023 12:43:47 GMT -5
Former AD Perry had us in the A10 for basketball until Brooks said NO. Believe you are correct about this. Remember a Prov. Journal article saying HC was in that league. A week or less later, two other schools got accepted.
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Post by trimster on Feb 19, 2023 14:36:39 GMT -5
The Worcester Telegram had an article strongly implying that HC was headed to the A10. Someone other than people quoted in the article, Perry and Blaney, had other ideas.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 19, 2023 15:37:30 GMT -5
Former AD Perry had us in the A10 for basketball until Brooks said NO. Crossports legend says Perry and Blaney had us in the Big East before Brooks said NO also. Which one of the Principals told you about the A-10 decision? Do you remember the year that Perry had us in the A-10? A-10 BB gets covered in many media markets so there might be an article that mentions the A-10 voting to invite Holy Cross that one of us can find if you can narrow down the date. Perry couldn't have had us in the A-10 without the A-10 voting to add us first I would think.
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Post by trimster on Feb 19, 2023 16:26:01 GMT -5
Former AD Perry had us in the A10 for basketball until Brooks said NO. Crossports legend says Perry and Blaney had us in the Big East before Brooks said NO also. Which one of the Principals told you about the A-10 decision? Do you remember the year that Perry had us in the A-10? A-10 BB gets covered in many media markets so there might be an article that mentions the A-10 voting to invite Holy Cross that one of us can find if you can narrow down the date. Perry couldn't have had us in the A-10 without the A-10 voting to add us first I would think. It was when the A10 added teams in 1982 or 83.
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Post by trimster on Feb 19, 2023 16:28:48 GMT -5
Crossports legend says Perry and Blaney had us in the Big East before Brooks said NO also. Which one of the Principals told you about the A-10 decision? Do you remember the year that Perry had us in the A-10? A-10 BB gets covered in many media markets so there might be an article that mentions the A-10 voting to invite Holy Cross that one of us can find if you can narrow down the date. Perry couldn't have had us in the A-10 without the A-10 voting to add us first I would think. It was when the A10 added teams in 1982 or 83. Just did some digging. 1982. St. Joe's and Temple were added.
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Post by trimster on Feb 19, 2023 17:11:28 GMT -5
It was when the A10 added teams in 1982 or 83. Just did some digging. 1982. St. Joe's and Temple were added. The A10 used to be called the Eastern 8 and may still have been going by that name in 1982.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 19, 2023 17:19:12 GMT -5
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Post by mm67 on Feb 19, 2023 17:24:26 GMT -5
How would HC have done in the A10 with our inferior small gym. Of course, more $ could have been taken from academics to build a glorious altar for the A10. Student pop of approx. 2 thousand, muted interest in the area, the school would have been saddled with more empty seats & higher maintenance costs plus a much larger for the basketball program. All this for an almost certain bottom feeder in the A10. Sounds good!
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 19, 2023 17:30:47 GMT -5
How would HC have done in the A10 with our inferior small gym. Of course, more $ could have been taken from academics to build a glorious altar for the A10. Student pop of approx. 2 thousand, muted interest in the area, the school would have been saddled with more empty seats & higher maintenance costs plus a much larger for the basketball program. All this for an almost certain bottom feeder in the A10. Sounds good! Centrum (DCU Center) downtown when and if needed. The potential to host big Holy Cross basketball games was one of the selling points made to the taxpayers when the downtown arena was proposed as I recall. The arena ended up making it's bones with concerts and minor league hockey but it's always been there for Holy Cross BB if needed.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 19, 2023 17:43:10 GMT -5
How would HC have done in the A10 with our inferior small gym. Of course, more $ could have been taken from academics to build a glorious altar for the A10. Student pop of approx. 2 thousand, muted interest in the area, the school would have been saddled with more empty seats & higher maintenance costs plus a much larger for the basketball program. All this for an almost certain bottom feeder in the A10. Sounds good! There seems a pattern among some posters never to question the temporal wisdom of one John Brooks SJ under penalty of ecclesial reprobation. But he missed on this one, too. The Hart Center was (and is) a comparable or better facility than Fordham's Rose Hill Gym, Duquesne's Palumbo Center, St. Joe's Alumni Fieldhouse, and arguably GW's Smith Center. Playing at the Centrum for big games, even more so. An Atlantic 10 membership would have opened up opportunities well beyond the cloisters of the Patriot League to compete at a mid-major level and to raise the HC brand nationally, even more than football has done. Ask what the NCAA's did for Loyola Chicago. (Edit: Apologies for the previous reference to approbation.)
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Feb 19, 2023 17:47:15 GMT -5
How would HC have done in the A10 with our inferior small gym. Of course, more $ could have been taken from academics to build a glorious altar for the A10. Student pop of approx. 2 thousand, muted interest in the area, the school would have been saddled with more empty seats & higher maintenance costs plus a much larger for the basketball program. All this for an almost certain bottom feeder in the A10. Sounds good! There seems a pattern among some posters never to question the temporal wisdom of one John Brooks SJ under penalty of ecclesial approbation. But he missed on this one, too. The Hart Center was (and is) a better facility than Fordham's Rose Hill Gym, Duquesne's Palumbo Center, St. Joe's Alumni Fieldhouse, and arguably GW's Smith Center. Playing at the Centrum for big games, even more so. An Atlantic 10 membership would have opened up opportunities well beyond the cloisters of the Patriot League to compete at a mid-major level and to raise the HC brand nationally, even more than football has done. The PL is a dead end and it's OK to say so. Exactly. The Hart Center would've been just fine for the A-10. Many posters here are old enough to know that the Hart Center was built well before HC went the Colonial League direction. Maybe we weren't a big time national program any more like we were in the fifties, but we hadn't yet begun our deliberate de-emphasis of athletics. We were still hosting schools like Providence on occasion. In the A-10, HC probably would've played 2 or 3 big conference games at the Centrum in addition to another game or two in the OOC, assuming that being a mid/high major would result in us playing a stronger non-league slate than we do now.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 19, 2023 17:56:46 GMT -5
How would HC have done in the A10 with our inferior small gym. Of course, more $ could have been taken from academics to build a glorious altar for the A10. Student pop of approx. 2 thousand, muted interest in the area, the school would have been saddled with more empty seats & higher maintenance costs plus a much larger for the basketball program. All this for an almost certain bottom feeder in the A10. Sounds good! There seems a pattern among some posters never to question the temporal wisdom of one John Brooks SJ under penalty of ecclesial approbation. But he missed on this one, too. The Hart Center was (and is) a comparable or better facility than Fordham's Rose Hill Gym, Duquesne's Palumbo Center, St. Joe's Alumni Fieldhouse, and arguably GW's Smith Center. Playing at the Centrum for big games, even more so. An Atlantic 10 membership would have opened up opportunities well beyond the cloisters of the Patriot League to compete at a mid-major level and to raise the HC brand nationally, even more than football has done. Ask what the NCAA's did for Loyola Chicago.If the Princeton Review has accurate data, it looks like Loyola accepts about 75% of applicants and then gets a 10% yield. Was it 90% acceptance and 8% yield before the recent basketball success? Maybe the endowment has grown via increased alumni donations??
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Post by trimster on Feb 19, 2023 18:05:02 GMT -5
How would HC have done in the A10 with our inferior small gym. Of course, more $ could have been taken from academics to build a glorious altar for the A10. Student pop of approx. 2 thousand, muted interest in the area, the school would have been saddled with more empty seats & higher maintenance costs plus a much larger for the basketball program. All this for an almost certain bottom feeder in the A10. Sounds good! There seems a pattern among some posters never to question the temporal wisdom of one John Brooks SJ under penalty of ecclesial reprobation. But he missed on this one, too. The Hart Center was (and is) a comparable or better facility than Fordham's Rose Hill Gym, Duquesne's Palumbo Center, St. Joe's Alumni Fieldhouse, and arguably GW's Smith Center. Playing at the Centrum for big games, even more so. An Atlantic 10 membership would have opened up opportunities well beyond the cloisters of the Patriot League to compete at a mid-major level and to raise the HC brand nationally, even more than football has done. Ask what the NCAA's did for Loyola Chicago. (Edit: Apologies for the previous reference to approbation.) My guess is Fr. John Brooks would have rather walked over hot coals than see HC in the A10.
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Post by trimster on Feb 19, 2023 18:06:33 GMT -5
How would HC have done in the A10 with our inferior small gym. Of course, more $ could have been taken from academics to build a glorious altar for the A10. Student pop of approx. 2 thousand, muted interest in the area, the school would have been saddled with more empty seats & higher maintenance costs plus a much larger for the basketball program. All this for an almost certain bottom feeder in the A10. Sounds good! The inferior small gym was the first sign of the good Father's vision for HC basketball.
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