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Post by longsuffering on Feb 19, 2023 18:10:37 GMT -5
There seems a pattern among some posters never to question the temporal wisdom of one John Brooks SJ under penalty of ecclesial approbation. But he missed on this one, too. The Hart Center was (and is) a comparable or better facility than Fordham's Rose Hill Gym, Duquesne's Palumbo Center, St. Joe's Alumni Fieldhouse, and arguably GW's Smith Center. Playing at the Centrum for big games, even more so. An Atlantic 10 membership would have opened up opportunities well beyond the cloisters of the Patriot League to compete at a mid-major level and to raise the HC brand nationally, even more than football has done. Ask what the NCAA's did for Loyola Chicago.If the Princeton Review has accurate data, it looks like Loyola accepts about 75% of applicants and then gets a 10% yield. Was it 90% acceptance and 8% yield before the recent basketball success? Maybe the endowment has grown via increased alumni donations?? Thanks to NCAA Tournament exposure, Loyola of Chicago has sold enough merch to finally allow Sister Jean to retire. When she's ready. I think ticket, sponsorship, in-arena advertising, apparel and souvenir revenue is probably the cleanest before and after measure of the NCAA effect on a program. Admissions is a more clouded measure as many other factors play a part. Chicago may not be the best selling point to parents these days, as an example. I also think a multi game run is required to measure much of an increase in revenue.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 19, 2023 18:26:35 GMT -5
Or consistently competing
Anybody do an analysis of the financial benefits of the Chesney era
Think applications will start to grow if admissions uses it as a tool - perhaps bringing the football staff to college night and local/regional events-- they are salesmen - use them wisely in admissions and development
In the next three years we might have significant improvements with other teams
Go Cross Go!!
Beginning Wednesday I will join others and take a recess from comments during Lent- until we make a decision on hoops. If no change I will catch up post Easter. If a change happens I might offer myself an opportunity to engage, but in a limited way
Time to order my King Cake and Pralines
God bless Holy Cross
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Post by mm67 on Feb 19, 2023 19:43:04 GMT -5
More hot air. 30 years for Fordham, the perennial loser in the A10? As a matter of fact there are some in the City who complain that Fordham will never achieve consistent success due in no small part to its undersized, outdated gym gym. Do not know about the others. Competing successfully at the higher level10 would have required a larger facility with , bells & whistles - better seating and scoreboard. HC's hs gym just doesn't cut it. Off campus Centrum for A10 games is simply not acceptable - more empty seats. Would be interested to see a comparison of the b-ball budgets for Dayton, Xavier and compare to HC's budgets. An acquaintance who had been a volunteer coach at Dayton advised that HC would have to up its budget considerably to be competitive with A10 schools. The animus directed toward Fr. Brooks only serves to make the person making the comment look smaller & uninformed. Remember this: no-one will remember or care what we write on this board. Carry on.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 19, 2023 19:53:07 GMT -5
More Hot air. 30 years for Fordham, the perennial loser in the A10? As a matter of fact there are some in the City who complain that Fordham will never achieve consistent success due in no small part to its undersize, outdated gym gym. Do not know about the others. Competing successfully at the higher level10 would have required a larger facility with , bells & whistles - better seating and scoreboard. HC's hs gym just doesn't cut it. Off campus Centrum for A10 games is simply not acceptable - more empty seats. Would be interested to see a comparison of the b-ball budgets for Dayton, Xavier and compare to HC's budgets. An acquaintance who had been a volunteer coach at Dayton advised that HC would have to up its budget considerably to be competitive with A10 schools. The animus directed toward Fr. Brooks only serves to make the person making the comment look smaller & uninformed. Remember this: no-one will remember or care what we write on this board. Carry on. I have no animus towards Father Brooks. No Worcester area business interests or HC alumni groups stepped up to assure Father Brooks that they would cover extra costs associated with a higher profile league so that no money would have to be diverted from academics. You read/hear references of Perry and Blaney being ready to join the Big East or A-10 with confidence that HC could compete. But even with the very loose standards of Urban Legends, you don't hear stories of Joe Blow '58, CEO of Joe Blow Worldwide or the heads of Norton Company and Wyman Gordon approaching Father Brooks to guarantee him donations large enough to insure Holy Cross academics would not be at financial risk if HC went big time.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 19, 2023 19:53:13 GMT -5
Not sure comments were directed towards any individual or decision, but using the tools we have today to make the future brighter
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Post by efg72 on Feb 19, 2023 20:04:05 GMT -5
More Hot air. 30 years for Fordham, the perennial loser in the A10? As a matter of fact there are some in the City who complain that Fordham will never achieve consistent success due in no small part to its undersize, outdated gym gym. Do not know about the others. Competing successfully at the higher level10 would have required a larger facility with , bells & whistles - better seating and scoreboard. HC's hs gym just doesn't cut it. Off campus Centrum for A10 games is simply not acceptable - more empty seats. Would be interested to see a comparison of the b-ball budgets for Dayton, Xavier and compare to HC's budgets. An acquaintance who had been a volunteer coach at Dayton advised that HC would have to up its budget considerably to be competitive with A10 schools. The animus directed toward Fr. Brooks only serves to make the person making the comment look smaller & uninformed. Remember this: no-one will remember or care what we write on this board. Carry on. I have no animus towards Father Brooks. No Worcester area business interests or HC alumni groups stepped up to assure Father Brooks that they would cover extra costs associated with a higher profile league so that no money would have to be diverted from academics. You read/hear references of Perry and Blaney being ready to join the Big East or A-10 with confidence that HC could compete. But even with the very loose standards of Urban Legends, you don't hear stories of Joe Blow '58, CEO of Joe Blow Worldwide or the heads of Norton Company and Wyman Gordon approaching Father Brooks to guarantee him donations large enough to insure Holy Cross academics would not be at financial risk if HC went big time. Academics have never been at risk and would not have been impacted negatively by a different decision. We aren't big enough as a school or alumni base to create that level of disruption to the academic profile. We could do it on our own like we did with a less than great effort from Admissions and the lack of leadership over the years from those that followed Brooks- although I defer to others on the board who watched Brooks and Admissions build out classes-my sense is he was way more interested in dollars and donors instead of rankings
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Post by alum on Feb 19, 2023 20:09:10 GMT -5
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Post by mm67 on Feb 19, 2023 21:27:48 GMT -5
Alum, thanks for the article much of which I was familiar with. I am quite proud of the academics first approach to athletics taken by HC under the leadership of Fr. Brooks. He & others simply would not sell out HC's academics for money. Bravo!
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Post by efg72 on Feb 19, 2023 21:40:04 GMT -5
Agree completely that it was his assumption or fear. On the other hand there are at least some of us who believe compromising academics was not a given or a requirement for participation, but may very well have changed the applicant pool to improve our academic reputation
But these are questions that will remain unanswered.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 19, 2023 22:02:16 GMT -5
efg, Thank you. Appreciate your thoughtful approach. One minor point of disagreement: Academics (the level & quality of learning) and academic reputation are not the same. Ideally academic reputation would be a byproduct of academics but unfortunately this is not always the case. It is widely accepted that commercial college rankings are critically flawed due in part to manipulation by the schools themselves. I remain filled with hope that HC will field competitive teams in all sports in the PL while maintaining its academic rigor.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 19, 2023 22:25:36 GMT -5
Agree completely with your point about the academics vs academic reputation. I believe, however, it would be very difficult to compromise on the academic demands, rigor and expectations at HC regardless of the athletic path. Also, I think the students, faculty, and alums wouldn't allow anything to happen that would reduce the academic quality and experiences of a HC education. That is why I believe a decision to do both and deliver excellence in each area was very much an option.
But let's march on and see what the future offers.
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Post by hc6774 on Feb 20, 2023 7:48:13 GMT -5
Or consistently competing Anybody do an analysis of the financial benefits of the Chesney era Think applications will start to grow if admissions uses it as a tool - perhaps bringing the football staff to college night and local/regional events-- they are salesmen - use them wisely in admissions and developmentIn the next three years we might have significant improvements with other teams Go Cross Go!! Beginning Wednesday I will join others and take a recess from comments during Lent- until we make a decision on hoops. If no change I will catch up post Easter. If a change happens I might offer myself an opportunity to engage, but in a limited way Time to order my King Cake and Pralines God bless Holy Cross Our Vice Provost for Admissions/Financial Aid is an excellent salesman; last time we talked he was still filling out his team
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Post by cmo on Jun 28, 2023 18:45:44 GMT -5
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Post by efg72 on Jun 28, 2023 18:49:11 GMT -5
Write the check and we continue to grow $5million is pocket change to make the transition One good season, the right conference and a bowl appearance and our P&L is strong
Conference for allsports BC UMess UConn Colgate Fordham Syracuse Holy Cross Villanova William and Mary Richmond
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 28, 2023 18:57:24 GMT -5
FBS teams want to limit any new competition
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Post by efg72 on Jun 28, 2023 19:01:45 GMT -5
NCAA wants revenue dollars, like all of us
That is great for football but most want join for basketball so might be a football only conference, but this group could get a solid ESPN or Fox sports contract given positions held by alumni of these institutions
So make it football only
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 28, 2023 19:08:59 GMT -5
FBS: Close the drawbridge, fill the moat. Keep the hordes outside. The scholarships make sense. A non-flagship state university that is tearing up FCS might well be able to handle additional athletic scholarships to largely in-state athletes in other sports, but not as easily come up with a lump sum of five large.
Schools should be able to change subdivisions as meets the needs of their school.
If UMass or UConn move from FBS to FCS do they receive a five million dollar check?
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 28, 2023 19:26:41 GMT -5
Write the check and we continue to grow $5million is pocket change to make the transition One good season, the right conference and a bowl appearance and our P&L is strong Conference for allsports BC UMess UConn Colgate Fordham Syracuse Holy Cross Villanova William and Mary Richmond After Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell have been kicked to the curb, what do you suggest they do if they want to continue their century plus football programs? I don't expect you to come up with a future path for G.U. Even AI (artificial intelligence not academic index) is stumped by their football journey.🙂
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 28, 2023 20:04:58 GMT -5
Since UMass became bowl eligible in 2013, they have not played in a bowl. The Minutemen played in three college division bowls (1-2), won the FCS national championship in 1998 and made several post season FCS tournament appearances.
HC has done well in FCS with a superstar coach Carter, Duffner or Chesney. But as we have seen with MBB, you can't just order a superstar coach from Amazon. I remember the first FCS game post-Duffner, (opened at Army) against UMass at Fitton on 9-19-92. It was the first season without Duff or scholarships. The Crusaders fought hard but UMass pulled it out 7-3. Despite having the most experienced three quarters of the team having been coached by the previous staff, the winning culture of the very special Duffner era couldn't get the Saders over the hump.
I like our current situation as national FCS title contenders.
If TPTB vote to move to FBS, I'll still be a devoted fan.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jun 28, 2023 20:08:04 GMT -5
There is ZERO shot Holy Cross would ever move up to FBS.
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Post by efg72 on Jun 28, 2023 20:23:13 GMT -5
True, but not an absolute if it has a positive impact on theschool
No guarantee it does, could even be a negative, but our current path for athletics needs a freshness upgrade and that is happening
We can all speculate about future changes, which is the purpose of my post, as the NCAA manipulates the future for schools ranked between 75 and 360
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 28, 2023 20:35:12 GMT -5
HC football is at peak freshness now. Use by date: the next head coach change. Could still be very good after that but not a sure thing.
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necfbfan
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 78
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Post by necfbfan on Jun 28, 2023 21:45:13 GMT -5
How many of the FBS programs in the northeast have a higher ceiling than Holy Cross if Holy Cross invests in football seriously? You could argue Syracuse and UConn (Although both programs have been consistently bad), but who else? Do Temple, Buffalo, Army, BC, and UMass have higher ceiling than Holy Cross? I'm not sure they do. In a hypothetical conference with the aforementioned teams, I don't see why Holy Cross couldn't compete for conference titles if they continue to build this thing right.
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Post by JRGNYR on Jun 29, 2023 7:56:02 GMT -5
The $5 mil isn't nearly as large an issue as the funding of 90% of scholarships across a minimum of 16 sports, including football, over a rolling two-year period. That's where a $5 mil commitment becomes $11 or $12 mil (or more) pretty quickly. That recommendation will cause more institutions to think long and hard about an FBS move than anything else.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jun 29, 2023 9:01:46 GMT -5
How many of the FBS programs in the northeast have a higher ceiling than Holy Cross if Holy Cross invests in football seriously? You could argue Syracuse and UConn (Although both programs have been consistently bad), but who else? Do Temple, Buffalo, Army, BC, and UMass have higher ceiling than Holy Cross? I'm not sure they do. In a hypothetical conference with the aforementioned teams, I don't see why Holy Cross couldn't compete for conference titles if they continue to build this thing right. Yes all of those programs have a higher ceiling than Holy Cross.
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