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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jun 22, 2023 13:42:30 GMT -5
Coached by Mark Prosser, son of former college coach Skip Prosser, who died young. Mark Prosser was an assistant under Flannery at Bucknell from 2003-08. Good guy and a good coach. He left for an assistant job at Wofford after Flannery retired. Btw, Flannery had become good friends with Skip Prosser, and he and Mark Prosser had dinner with Skip in Florida at an AAU event the night before his fatal heart attack. I remember Bucknell had a home-and-home with Wake during that time. The year we beat you guys in the PL Championship, you guys had played them to an OT loss IIRC.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jun 22, 2023 14:25:05 GMT -5
In another Skip Prosser connection....Bucknell won at Xavier that year, where Prosser coached from 1994-2001.
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Post by bison137 on Jun 22, 2023 14:30:23 GMT -5
Mark Prosser was an assistant under Flannery at Bucknell from 2003-08. Good guy and a good coach. He left for an assistant job at Wofford after Flannery retired. Btw, Flannery had become good friends with Skip Prosser, and he and Mark Prosser had dinner with Skip in Florida at an AAU event the night before his fatal heart attack. I remember Bucknell had a home-and-home with Wake during that time. The year we beat you guys in the PL Championship, you guys had played them to an OT loss IIRC. Yes, lost 86-83 in OT. Game was decided by the refs. They were well-known refs, but selected by the ACC - and they knew who was supposed to win. Bucknell had three starters foul out (Donald Brown, Mastropaolo, and John Griffin) and the other two starters (McNaughton and Badmus) had four fouls. At least two subs also had four fouls. But the most egregious thing - one of the most dishonest things I've ever seen in college basketball - was the disgraceful actions of the reffing crew at the end of regulation. WF was holding for the final shot in a tie game when Badmus knocked the ball loose. Multiple players went to the floor going for the loose ball at half court - right in front of me. A WF player got possession of the ball while lying on the floor and immediately called timeout - both verbally and by gesture. One of the refs clearly granted the timeout. Seen and heard by much of the crowd, especially those near the court where my seats were located. But WF had no timeouts left. Should have been a two shot technical and Bucknell possession. But that didn't fit the desired narrative, so the refs huddled up and finally decided their timeout call really never happened. Called it a jump ball even though no Bucknell player was touching the ball and even though the ref at half court clearly signaled the timeout. WF ball on the alternate possession. In the postgame press conference, Flannery told the truth about the refereeing - and got reprimanded by the PL for doing so. If they hadn't known that every word was true, he almost surely would have been suspended. Despite the outcome, it was a great atmosphere. About 500 over Sojka's capacity and extremely loud. Only the home game with #4 Villanova the previous year drew a larger crowd. That one probably had 700 standing.
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 22, 2023 19:27:48 GMT -5
Can any current or former ref confirm they ever stepped onto a court after being instructed that one team was supposed to win? Can any coach confirm they ever instructed the refs before the game that their team is supposed to win? Has anyone ever observed any ref hustling up and down the court at a Holy Cross game who looks like a crook?
I umpired Little League games as a teenager. If anyone told me who was supposed to win, I'd turn them in immediately. My father hired the umpires. And to have all three refs in a crew be crooked is unimaginable. I can't buy your claim that all three refs were in a conspiracy with a league to tilt a game Bison. That's too many people.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 22, 2023 19:35:31 GMT -5
Coaches rate the referees after each game and the big time program coaches will black ball the referees that do not favor the home team versus the visiting small time program. Accordingly referees will give the home town big program the benefit of the doubt every time
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Post by hchoops on Jun 22, 2023 19:51:24 GMT -5
Bison137 says that the game was at Bucknell
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 22, 2023 20:05:40 GMT -5
"They were well known refs but selected by the ACC - and they knew who was supposed to win."
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 22, 2023 20:39:37 GMT -5
Coaches rate the referees after each game and the big time program coaches will black ball the referees that do not favor the home team versus the visiting small time program. Accordingly referees will give the home town big program the benefit of the doubt every time So all the power conference coaches who make millions per year, all the conference executives who have highly paid positions and all the refs who have upstanding careers as teachers, lawyers, accountants, postal workers are all in the grand crooked conspiracy together, coaches and executives risking their high salaries and careers, refs risking their reputations and freedom to throw games in the hope nobody who is harmed will ever make a spreadsheet, a video showing a pattern and go to the FBI, get fitted with a wire and blow the whole criminal scheme up? I think the conspiracy of crooked refs is an urban myth. In general I don't think either elections or college basketball games are rigged, certainly not with every ref in every power conference in on the criminal conspiracy. When an attempt was made to show that the 2020 election was rigged, seventy plus courts threw it out yet the belief that that election was rigged and stolen will outlive us all. When put under a microscope it showed the million or so U.S. election workers were honest. Aren't refs the husbands, wives, brothers and sisters of those election workers?
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Post by bfoley82 on Jun 22, 2023 21:14:30 GMT -5
Coaches rate the referees after each game and the big time program coaches will black ball the referees that do not favor the home team versus the visiting small time program. Accordingly referees will give the home town big program the benefit of the doubt every time So all the power conference coaches who make millions per year, all the conference executives who have highly paid positions and all the refs who have upstanding careers as teachers, lawyers, accountants, postal workers are all in the grand crooked conspiracy together, coaches and executives risking their high salaries and careers, refs risking their reputations and freedom to throw games in the hope nobody who is harmed will ever make a spreadsheet, a video showing a pattern and go to the FBI, get fitted with a wire and blow the whole criminal scheme up? I think the conspiracy of crooked refs is an urban myth. In general I don't think either elections or college basketball games are rigged, certainly not with every ref in every power conference in on the criminal conspiracy. When an attempt was made to show that the 2020 election was rigged, seventy plus courts threw it out yet the belief that that election was rigged and stolen will outlive us all. When put under a microscope it showed the million or so U.S. election workers were honest. Aren't refs the husbands, wives, brothers and sisters of those election workers? Here is the game I am assuming he is referring to. I have never heard of these refs but a quick google search of each of them shows images of each of them doing NC State and Duke games. s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/sidearm.nextgen.sites/wakeforestsports.com/documents/2018/7/30/3392__m_baskbl_2015_16_box_score__stats_20151115aaa.pdf?timestamp=20180730060516
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Post by bfoley82 on Jun 22, 2023 21:23:57 GMT -5
Oh, he is talking about the 2006-2007 overtime game which was reffed by Tim Kelly, Frank Scagliotta, Jose Carrion. godeacs.com/news/2006/11/14/Demon_Deacons_Outlast_Bison_In_Overtime_86_83Carrion still works games in the Northeast and I have seen him at Holy Cross in the last five years and several Ivy League areas. Interesting enough, Carrion is still on the FIBA roster for Puerto Rico and worked the 2004, 2008, and 2012 Olympic games.
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 22, 2023 21:47:41 GMT -5
Oh, he is talking about the 2006-2007 overtime game which was reffed by Tim Kelly, Frank Scagliotta, Jose Carrion. godeacs.com/news/2006/11/14/Demon_Deacons_Outlast_Bison_In_Overtime_86_83Carrion still works games in the Northeast and I have seen him at Holy Cross in the last five years and several Ivy League areas. Interesting enough, Carrion is still on the FIBA roster for Puerto Rico and worked the 2004, 2008, and 2012 Olympic games. He's going to risk his Olympic credentials to throw a game at Bucknell?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 22, 2023 22:14:46 GMT -5
No he’s going to subtly favor the ACC team-when calls could go either way they will favor the high profile team whose coach can influence his career
Didn’t we hear stories of the insufferable Coach K following the refs down court to admonish them about the officiating when HC was tied with Duke in a game at Duke?
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 22, 2023 23:49:59 GMT -5
No he’s going to subtly favor the ACC team-when calls could go either way they will favor the high profile team whose coach can influence his career Didn’t we hear stories of the insufferable Coach K following the refs down court to admonish them about the officiating when HC was tied with Duke in a game at Duke? You mean Coach K is like every other coach? Every ref in a whole league is in on a scam with every coach (including of Catholic, even Jesuit Schools) in that league and then after the game seamlessly returns to their roles as Church Deacons, Nurses, lawyers, MBAs, Ethics Professors, IRS Agents, etc. where they practice truth, honesty and fair play, go home and lecture their kids to be honest and fair, and then for an hour and a half during the game they all become corrupt thugs together? For a ref stipend? That could be 50-60 people conspiring together to harm other people and nobody blowing the whistle. Possible, but my experience is you see the play you make a call instantly and it's the true call based on how you saw it from your angle and you go on to the next play. There isn't a lot of time to calculate how to screw one team to get more assignments and you know every play is on multiple cameras. Charlie Baker will stamp out this dishonest conspiracy.🙂
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 23, 2023 7:06:25 GMT -5
L/S, I certainly appreciate your standing for the integrity of these refs but here's what bison137 said:
Trying to square the circle here but another, more charitable interpretation, is that the one ref saw the TO signal and granted it but the other two honestly never saw/heard it. They huddle and the other two say they never saw the request and "really, Joe, do you think a Wake Forest player would be so stupid to call for a timeout they didn't have knowing it'd almost certainly lose the game for them? You absolutely certain you didn't mis-hear or the player's hands just flailing and not really a timeout request? Neither of us heard or saw anything."
Yeah, it's a stretch but stranger things have happened.
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 23, 2023 10:37:16 GMT -5
I trust Bison's vision and long term memory. I don't trust the urban myth that refs are crooked for extra assignments, all the refs, coach's, ADs, and league and school administrators are in on it and nobody in our high tech, litiguous society blows the whistle. Pun intended.🙂
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 23, 2023 11:49:22 GMT -5
I fremember Jim Herrion (when he was Jack Donohue's assistant) telling us about his time as a ref and that Army West Point made it clear that if you made "too many" calls against Army that would be your last game there as an official. He also said that many colleges had a similar policy and all the refs knew who they were.
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Post by timholycross on Jun 23, 2023 13:46:46 GMT -5
I do remember a La Salle game when they were very good (Lionel Simmons, Tim Legler, etc.) and the MAAC brought in some big time ref (I want to say Dick Paparo, but I could be wrong about that).
He sucked. Acted like he was doing everyone a favor by being in a relatively tiny gym on a weekday night. Didn't cost HC the game by any means but didn't add anything positive to the contest.
Sometimes, I'd prefer having the men (and women) who do most of your games rather than an import.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jun 23, 2023 14:05:50 GMT -5
I do remember a La Salle game when they were very good (Lionel Simmons, Tim Legler, etc.) and the MAAC brought in some big time ref (I want to say Dick Paparo, but I could be wrong about that). He sucked. Acted like he was doing everyone a favor by being in a relatively tiny gym on a weekday night. Didn't cost HC the game by any means but didn't add anything positive to the contest. Sometimes, I'd prefer having the men (and women) who do most of your games rather than an import. I vaguely remember a game where Mickey Crowley was driving me nuts; wonder if we're thinking of the same game?
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Post by Tom on Jun 23, 2023 14:10:30 GMT -5
I do remember a La Salle game when they were very good (Lionel Simmons, Tim Legler, etc.) and the MAAC brought in some big time ref (I want to say Dick Paparo, but I could be wrong about that). He sucked. Acted like he was doing everyone a favor by being in a relatively tiny gym on a weekday night. Didn't cost HC the game by any means but didn't add anything positive to the contest. Sometimes, I'd prefer having the men (and women) who do most of your games rather than an import. I vaguely remember a game where Mickey Crowley was driving me nuts; wonder if we're thinking of the same game? Oh ya. That game when Dave was unhappy with the officials. I remember that lone instance
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Post by hchoops on Jun 23, 2023 14:32:27 GMT -5
I do remember a La Salle game when they were very good (Lionel Simmons, Tim Legler, etc.) and the MAAC brought in some big time ref (I want to say Dick Paparo, but I could be wrong about that). He sucked. Acted like he was doing everyone a favor by being in a relatively tiny gym on a weekday night. Didn't cost HC the game by any means but didn't add anything positive to the contest. Sometimes, I'd prefer having the men (and women) who do most of your games rather than an import. I vaguely remember a game where Mickey Crowley was driving me nuts; wonder if we're thinking of the same game? I am old enough to have had Mickey do my high school games while he was starting out in college. He was a very good ref who did final 4 and championship games. And a good guy also.
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Post by trimster on Jun 23, 2023 16:13:46 GMT -5
One of my favorite refs to see in the Hart Center back in the day, was Ed Batagowski.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 23, 2023 18:20:33 GMT -5
Anyone but Charlie Diehl (sp?)
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Post by hchoops on Jun 23, 2023 19:02:40 GMT -5
NAD’s fave-Bill McCarthy
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Post by purplehaze on Jun 23, 2023 19:16:36 GMT -5
I remember Edgar Cartotto and Joe Debonis from my day
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Post by bison137 on Jun 23, 2023 22:34:36 GMT -5
Coached by Mark Prosser, son of former college coach Skip Prosser, who died young. Mark Prosser was an assistant under Flannery at Bucknell from 2003-08. Good guy and a good coach. He left for an assistant job at Wofford after Flannery retired. Btw, Flannery had become good friends with Skip Prosser, and he and Mark Prosser had dinner with Skip in Florida at an AAU event the night before his fatal heart attack. Ironically, this popped up earlier tonight on twitter:
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