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Post by hchoops on Nov 2, 2023 10:23:37 GMT -5
Very perceptive. Thank you for posting.
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Post by HC92 on Nov 2, 2023 11:39:46 GMT -5
Pro- 3 National Championships, 902-371 at 3 schools, most at Indiana, no NCAA violations, very high player graduation rate. Con- fired at Indiana for physical abuse of.a player and verbal abuse of players and workers at Indiana. Some horrendous quotes about women, including one on national television. I saw him when he was at West Point (with Mike K.) playing at Fordham, coached by former Ram great, Ed Conlin. When he became enraged over a ref’s call, Knight kicked over a water cooler which flooded the court. In the long time it took to dry the floor, Conlin approached him to criticize Knight’s action. Knight confronted the much bigger Conlin and the two coaches brawled until multiple assistants restrained Knight. it was the only time I have seen two coaches fist fight during a game I saw Penders and Carnesecca have a near brawl at Rose Hill when I was a young lad.
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Post by crusader1970 on Nov 2, 2023 11:59:53 GMT -5
I was not there. Are you sure it was in 66 ? Thought it was my freshman year but your comment brought back in my memory banks that part of the issue was our much taller team with Easy Ed and big Ronnie T. Maybe my sophomore year and you were gone by then. Ed and Ron couldn't play varsity until '67. Yeah, had to be '67. I was there. Pretty sure it was the fall of 66 during Thanksgiving break. Could be wrong but that is my bet. I think it was a Sunday around noon and I was back on campus early after attending the famous Jack Lentz to Pete Kimener football game in Boston the prior day.
The one thing I remember clearly from that scrimmage was the brawl that broke out between the teams. I believe it was Keith Hochstein who thought Bill Schutsky (see: goarmywestpoint.com/honors/hall-of-fame/william-richard-schutsky/76/kiosk) was getting a bit too physical and let him know it. A few pushes grew into a couple of light punches and both teams started going at it. However, peace was quickly restored and the scrimmage continued..
Looking at the schedule for that year we played them Dec 17th at Army and lost 65-44. It does seem odd that we would scrimmage them 3 weeks before we played them regular season......so maybe it was Fall1967
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Post by hchoops on Nov 2, 2023 13:29:12 GMT -5
I think that i would have heard about that Schutsky - Keith fight if I was a senior I knew Keith and heard of Schutsky’s rep That scrimmage must have been in 67
When Knight used to hit Schutsky in practices, sometimes Schutsky would hit him back Knight would throw him out of practice, but he would always start their next game This came from a cadet who witnessed it
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Post by princetoncrusader on Nov 2, 2023 20:42:04 GMT -5
An incident in Feinstein's excellent book--A Season on the Brink--involved IU freshman Dan Dakich. Before a game at Minnesota, the team was practicing and Knight was on the court with the players. Dakich stole the ball from Knight. Play resumed, and he stole the ball again. Knight, incensed, smashed the ball off Dakich's face. Dakich retold the story tonight on Laura Ingram's show, adding that he never told his parents about the incident. Said he enjoyed playing and coaching under Knight for a total of 16 years. I guess that coaching style works for some guys.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 2, 2023 21:04:36 GMT -5
Putting those pieces and my memory together, I'm more confident it was '67. I believe I and a couple of buddies living on Wheeler I happened to walk into the fieldhouse.
While I don't recall the fight clearly, that may well have happened.
What I do clearly recall was there were refs and the big difference in height (Army had, I believe a 6'4" or 6'5" maximum height and we had Ed & Ron among others). But what really stood out was the scrimmage was being played like a game and in the middle of an Army offensive set, Knight came screaming out onto the court and literally pulled some of his players to different spots on the floor saying stuff like "you aren't supposed to be here but over there!" His guys were embarrassed and the refs were flummoxed about what they were supposed to do and Jack D was also non-plussed. Our guys seemed bemused by the nutty coach. Instead of a scrimmage, he was treating this like a West Point practice that just happened to have Holy Cross players on the court.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 2, 2023 21:30:08 GMT -5
Jack D. had known Knight for some time. Knight was mentored by Joe Lapchick who was friends with Donohue. Knight used to lecture at Jack’s camp in Saugerties, NY. Jack could not have been surprised by any of Knight’s antics.
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Post by timholycross on Nov 2, 2023 21:34:29 GMT -5
I'd like to see some old film(s) of Army games in the late 60's.
My guess is the defensive pressure and physical play that his teams had as a trademark would be considered more or less normal by today's standards.
He got the defensive philosophy from a guy named Al LoBalbo.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 2, 2023 21:39:38 GMT -5
I'd like to see some old film(s) of Army games in the late 60's. My guess is the defensive pressure and physical play that his teams had as a trademark would be considered more or less normal by today's standards. He got the defensive philosophy from a guy named Al LoBalbo. Not normal by any standards LoBalbo and Tates Locke developed that D. Knight was Locke’s assistant at Army and Locke recommended Knight for the head job when he left.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 2, 2023 21:56:46 GMT -5
Interesting he was a PFC and yet his nickname by some was “the General.” Sarcasm?
I will defer to you knowing Donahue, hoops, but even though he might have known Knight, he sure looked surprised at his fieldhouse antics.
Always wondered who wanted the scrimmage, HC or WP.
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Post by alum on Nov 3, 2023 5:23:16 GMT -5
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Post by efg72 on Nov 3, 2023 8:28:45 GMT -5
Jay Bilas: I liked the Bob Knight I knew play
Jay Bilas, College Basketball Analyst Nov 1, 2023, 07:30 PM ET Share LikeLike Open Extended Reactions LikeFireInteresting 832 There had never been anyone quite like him before, nor will there be anyone quite like him again.
Bob Knight, who died Wednesday at age 83, made an indelible mark on the sport of basketball and the American sports culture, and always did so on his own terms, in his own way, without explanation or apology. He was the most successful, respected, influential and powerful coach of his era and beyond. He was also the most controversial, criticized and feared coach of his time.
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Before his retirement, his career success and influence were unmatched. And while he was revered for his coaching, teaching and innovating, he could also be reviled for his behavior. Nobody sat on the fence in how they viewed and perceived Bob Knight.
EDITOR'S PICKS
Important moments in Bob Knight's career 2dMyron Medcalf
The coaching legacy Bob Knight leaves behind 2dJeff Borzello
'The game has lost an icon': Bob Knight dies at 83 1d I had the privilege of knowing Knight well, and calling him a friend. We worked together at ESPN, and would go on annual golf trips during the summer. He was the only friendship I ever had that I felt I had to explain or justify. After all, while Knight's positive traits were numerous, so, too, were his questionable ones. He was capable of incredible acts of kindness and thoughtfulness, yet also capable of questionable acts of stubbornness and thoughtlessness.
Around 20 years ago, I decided I would no longer try to explain or justify the friendship, because I couldn't. Most people could not or would not be convinced by my view of him -- so I quit trying. It wasn't that I overlooked the negatives or rationalized any of his questionable behavior or decisions. I felt the good outweighed the bad, and I felt I knew the real Bob Knight.
Or, at the very least, I liked the Bob Knight I knew.
Jay Bilas and Bob Knight worked together and road-tripped together. For ESPN Knight was a throwback, even in a throwback era. In my view, he could have coached any sport and coached it just as effectively as he coached basketball. He had an analytic mind, understood motivation and inspiration, and had an extraordinary ability to break things down. Watching a football or baseball game with Knight was a special treat, as he could pick apart the game just as you would expect him to dissect a basketball game.
His ability to see minute -- yet important -- details on a basketball floor was unmatched, and I have never seen his equal. I would find it hard to believe that any coach anywhere would not learn something from Knight watching film with him, and feel somewhat uneducated after Knight would point out a detail he spotted that everyone else missed. I have also never seen his equal as a teacher of the game, especially in practice settings. He had the ability to get in and out of teaching situations without stopping play, a skill precious few coaches possess to that level.
Knight's practices were closed and private, and they would be conducted without a practice plan available to the players (and sometimes his staff). Knight had the practice plan written out on an index card or two, and he believed the players need not know the plan in advance but should react to it in real time without pacing themselves to the plan. I remember him once telling me that he would let the players decide the things he didn't care about. If he didn't care where the team ate, he let the players decide. If he called a practice on a Sunday but didn't care whether it was morning or afternoon, he let the players decide. But if Knight cared, there was only one person deciding: Bob Knight.
Knight influenced the most influential minds in the game, and they sought out his advice and counsel.
In 1984, after coaching Michael Jordan on the gold-medal-winning U.S. Olympic team, Portland general manager Stu Inman called Knight for advice on the upcoming NBA draft. Knight counseled Inman to take Jordan, calling Jordan the best basketball player he had ever seen. Inman told Knight the Blazers already had Clyde Drexler and needed a center. Knight responded, "Then play Jordan at center."
Knight was the first Division I men's basketball coach to win 900 games. He was the most prolific winner in Big Ten history, won three NCAA titles at Indiana, went to five Final Fours and led the United States to the 1984 Olympic gold medal. He innovated the motion offense and influenced countless coaches with his teaching of the game. One cannot think of Indiana basketball without thinking of Bob Knight.
Knight won over 900 games. He won three NCAA titles at Indiana and led Team USA to the 1984 Olympic gold medal. AP Photo Yet Knight led a full life, one that basketball did not dominate. An intense competitor, Knight wanted to win as much as any coach ever has, but when the game was over and the work was done, Knight had other interests. He was an avid fisherman and hunter, and the day after a game, he was just as likely to be out hunting or fishing in the morning before practice, or reading a book that had nothing to do with basketball. Incredibly intelligent and well-read, Knight was keen to discuss any topic with equal enthusiasm to basketball, and seem just as authoritative.
His faults were bigger than life as well. He could be uncommonly stubborn, especially with the media. Knight once fielded a less than informed question from a local media member and embarrassed the reporter with his response. After the interaction, I asked him why he did that. "If an uninformed coach had asked you a stupid question during a clinic lecture, you would have tried to educate the coach. Why don't you do the same with the media? That guy probably left a high school football practice to cover your team, then might have gone to cover the local police blotter today. Why undress him in a minor press conference?" Knight paused, and acknowledged that he shouldn't do that, but replied, "I just can't. I'm too far down the road to change now." I feel like I understood. I just didn't agree. He was OK with reasonable disagreement, as implausible as that seems to those who didn't know him. But when he believed he was right, even when he wasn't, there was no talking him out of it.
Knight knew he had made significant mistakes, and I know he regretted them. He just had a difficult time admitting that and apologizing publicly. An example I recall might be revealing. In December 2009, Indiana upset Pittsburgh in Madison Square Garden. I called the game from courtside. It was a huge win for second-year coach Tom Crean, and it was the first time Bob Knight, then doing studio work with ESPN, had been in the same building as Indiana since being fired in 2000.
The day after that game, Knight and I had stayed in New York to watch UConn play Kentucky in the Garden. It was John Calipari's first season at Kentucky, and we wanted to see it in person. While sitting in the stands watching the game, Knight leaned over to me and said he wanted to get my thoughts on something. "I think I really f---ed up last night with Tony La Russa after the game," he said. Knight then told me that his close friend and baseball legend La Russa had called him right after Indiana's win and told him he hoped Knight would go into the Hoosiers' postgame locker room. Knight said he told La Russa there was no way he was going to do that -- that it would take away from Indiana's win and make him the story. It would be unfair to the players and to Crean. La Russa didn't buy the explanation and pressed him on the issue, telling him he needed to be the "bigger man" and visit the locker room. Knight said he blew up at La Russa and told him, "Damn it, Tony, I'm not over it yet! I don't think I'll ever get over it!" He then hung up on La Russa.
Knight was genuinely affected by the exchange. From our discussion, it became clear to me that Knight wasn't angry at La Russa, and he wasn't angry at Indiana. But he was still hurt over his dismissal. While Knight was volatile at times, he was also intensely emotional and could be quick to tear up. He didn't know how to show it or voice it through the bravado he displayed. In that, he was always a throwback.
Jay Bilas and Bob Knight spent a lot of time together, including trips and rounds of golf. For ESPN Driving with Knight was a unique and, at times, frightening experience. I never saw him wear a seat belt, so riding with him meant enduring the torturous, repetitive dinging of the unfastened seat belt chime, all while Knight pretended he didn't hear it. And driving with Knight usually meant you were heading somewhere to eat. He was a connoisseur of holes-in-the-wall. Knight was far more comfortable eating at a dive than at an expensive steakhouse. And his beverage choices bordered on obscene for my taste. He would mix lemonade with Dr Pepper, or worse.
Once, Knight and I were doing a game together at Kansas and he wanted to grab something to eat on the drive from the hotel to Allen Fieldhouse. I thought, incorrectly, he wanted to grab a sandwich to take to the arena -- I was wrong. He wanted to stop and sit for lunch. The game was in less than two hours. I called the producer to tell him what Knight wanted to do and that I had little chance of talking him out of it. The producer asked: "Do you think you can make it to the arena by the opening tip?" I said yes, and he told me to do my best. So we sat down at an Applebee's in Lawrence with stunned Jayhawks fans gawking at Knight and approaching for autographs and photos. We made the tip by about five minutes.
Knight was also a real piece of work on the golf course. He enjoyed playing but was not obsessed with the game. While in Scotland once, Knight was walking to the green for a short chip shot and asked to borrow my sand wedge. After he hit his shot, I noticed that he had his own sand wedge with him and asked why he needed mine. "If I hit a bad chip, I didn't want to throw mine." I wasn't sure whether that was a planned joke or he was dead serious. I think he liked it that way.
Knight's acts of kindness were rarely publicized, and if I had publicized those I knew of while he was alive, he would not have liked it. Knight played for the legendary Fred Taylor at Ohio State, and near the end of Taylor's life, Knight would sneak into Taylor's hospital room to hold his hand. When a legendary basketball talent evaluator was having financial difficulty late in life, Knight paid his outstanding bills and rent, without telling a soul.
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Knight's on-again, off-again relationship with Mike Krzyzewski, my college coach and mentor, was a sore spot with Knight and me. I never understood it. I knew how proud Knight was of Coach K, and how much Coach K meant to him. But, I just couldn't wrap my head around how Knight would negatively react to any perceived slight or miscommunication that, to others, was insignificant. I could always tell where the relationship was to Knight at any given time. When Knight asked, "Have you talked to Mike? How is he doing?" I knew things were in a good place. When he asked, "How is Krzyzewski?" I knew something was askew. Truthfully, it was a great lesson. Knight allowed small things to affect an important lifetime relationship. In doing so, he hurt himself and he hurt Coach K. Seeing that from both sides, I quietly vowed that I would strive to never let that happen in my life. None of that was worth the cost, and I believe Knight would agree with that, were we to talk about it.
The complete picture of Bob Knight is complicated and more nuanced than it seems from the outside. He leaves this world as one of the great coaches in American sports history and one of its most compelling figures. He lived one of the richest basketball lives in the game's history, and is woven into the fabric of the game like few others. He won championships and gold medals, wrote books, and broke bread with people of so many different walks of life, from world leaders to taxi drivers.
Whatever one thinks of Bob Knight, positive or negative, I won't argue. But without reasonable argument, the basketball world lost an American original.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 3, 2023 8:43:05 GMT -5
It was Jack Donohue who told me the details of the Yeshiva story. Knight was his friend, but he also liked the Yeshiva coach (name escapes me) and thought what he did in response to Knight was hysterical. He felt Knight deserved it and needed to be brought down a peg.
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Post by mm67 on Nov 3, 2023 9:13:47 GMT -5
Jay Bilas conveniently left out the violent tirades during games, physical abuse of players & verbal assaults by Knight against others.. The ESPN post by Bilas was a whitewash, a useless gift to his friend, Bob Knight. For years I watched Knight's psychotic, violent behavior. Knight was successful at innovating & winning in basketball but not a success as a man. He weakly succumbed to his wildest, violent impulses. Certainly Knight is not a role model for youngsters. I did not respect him. May his tortured soul find eternal rest & redemption. RIP.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 3, 2023 10:24:18 GMT -5
Some people are brilliant at what they do so they are given a wide berth in their personal lives. That would seem to be the case with Knight. But even his friend more or less concedes that on a personal basis, Knight was a jerk.
He really should be buried with his butt on top, not so people can "kiss my a$$" but more for all the people he hurt physically, mentally, emotionally, so they can "kick his a$$."
The story about the young reporter getting publicly dressed down seems a case example. Not only that he did it but that he even refused to apologize in private, much less publicly.
Wherever he is in the afterlife. hopefully he can look back and make amends with his God as it is too late to do it with his associates.
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Post by hcnation on Nov 11, 2023 16:16:05 GMT -5
DAN SHAUGHNESSY November 10, 2023, 5:00 a.m.
Paragraph in his weekly column
Cousy’s Boston College teams beat Bobby Knight’s _Army teams twice — in the Holiday Festival in Madison Square Garden in 1965, and in an NIT semifinal also at MSG in 1969. The Eagles also went to West Point, at Knight’s request, for a scrimmage before the start of one of Knight’s early seasons. Cousy’s memories of his encounters with Knight are not fond. “We whipped him three times and I have still yet to shake his hand,” the 95-year-old Cooz said from his Worcester home. “I didn’t know who this guy was, Bobby Knight from Ohio State. At the Holiday Festival, we beat him when they were heavily favored and I went over to shake his hand and he ran by me and attacked the officials. “In the NIT, we were favored and it was a close game and I was intense and on one knee for about the first 37 minutes. I wanted to beat the [expletive] so badly. We finally got about 8 ahead with two minutes to go and I sat back and relaxed a little. “It was then that I became aware of a string of obscenities coming our way. Knight was screaming at my fuzzy-faced little assistant, Gerard [Gerry Friel], who I’d never heard say a nasty word in h is life. The game ended and I went over to shake Knight’s hand and this time he ran by me and attacked Gerard!
The only other time I remember Knight was when we responded to their invitation to go up to West Point and scrimmage. We went up there and in the first hour we were pulling the players apart because they were fighting. “Finally, I called time out and said to Knight, ‘Coach, we’re not getting a lot done here.’ And all I heard was another string of obscenities. “So we finished the scrimmage and on our way out, I said, ‘Bobby, take a good look at my ass, because this is the last time you’re going to see me here doing you a favor.’ “He turned out to be an outstanding coach. I don’t like to see anyone pass away, but given my interaction with him, I was not his biggest fan.”
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 12, 2023 15:35:15 GMT -5
Sounds like the BC scrimmage was very much like the one at Holy Cross' fieldhouse. He's gonna have a lot of explaining to do to St. Peter before he gains entry.
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