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Post by longsuffering on Nov 6, 2023 23:45:41 GMT -5
The Siena College name has been on every TV network, every news channel, every major newspaper or other news site worldwide in the last several days. How much is that free positive publicity worth to a small college like Siena (or Holy Cross?)
It doesn't hurt to be a full partner with one of the most important media outlets and best known brands in the world, the New York Times.
It obviously hasn't turned Siena into Stanford overnight but I have a ton of admiration for what Siena has done and would love to see the Holy Cross brand associated with something that gets as much positive attention.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 7, 2023 6:16:01 GMT -5
Has the Marist polls helped them? 🤷🏻‍♂️ Not sure.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Nov 7, 2023 7:58:04 GMT -5
Quinnipiac and Suffolk University have also dipped into the polling world. I have to think it has some positive benefit.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 7, 2023 8:17:58 GMT -5
My memory is getting as bad as some others, so maybe I should run for president - probably at least as good as the two front runners, but a number of years ago during one of those alumni education days at Holy Cross, one of the sessions was of a professor who talked specifically about polling for an hour or so. This was right around the time shortly after a presidential election when the polls were way off from the actual results.
My takeaway was that polls were notoriously inadequate/inaccurate and he gave what at the time seemed like a reasonable explanation. But, if that's the thinking atop Mt. St. James, they may not want to get into polling.
Definitely did not leave that session with the idea that I would ever takes polls to the bank.
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Post by CHC8485 on Nov 7, 2023 8:38:38 GMT -5
Tell me, what audience is absorbing all the “free” publicity that costs a decent amount of money to create?
I guarantee it is not college bound high schoolers. And can virtually guarantee it is very few of their parents.
Neither of those groups is sitting down at 6:00 PM each night to watch the local or network news and I’d be shocked if they are watching CNN, FoxNews, or MS-NBC talking heads spin the poll anyway they can.
Perhaps they should do some polling to determine who their political polls are reaching?
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 7, 2023 9:26:11 GMT -5
Tell me, what audience is absorbing all the “free” publicity that costs a decent amount of money to create? I guarantee it is not college bound high schoolers. And can virtually guarantee it is very few of their parents. Neither of those groups is sitting down at 6:00 PM each night to watch the local or network news and I’d be shocked if they are watching CNN, FoxNews, or MS-NBC talking heads spin the poll anyway they can. Perhaps they should do some polling to determine who their political polls are reaching? They are reaching nerds like me. But why I think Siena is helped is the sheer repetition of their name connected with something newsworthy when a poll goes viral like the recent finding that the Septuagenarian is ahead of the Octogenarian. "I got offers from Holy Cross, Sacred Heart and Siena" "Well I've heard of Siena at least"
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 7, 2023 9:46:11 GMT -5
Did you ever notice how when a politician is ahead in the polls that they swear by them and when they are behind, they are worthless because it's too early before the election; they didn't poll the right people? FWIW, my recollection was those reasons were given by our HC professor. Think about who gets polled. A cross section of the population? Likely voters? They can be accurate but it ain't simple and need to be scrutinized for the methodology. But, L/S, don't look for HC to join Siena, Marist or other polling colleges/universities which are not being mistaken for Harvard, Yale, Stamford or . . . . . Holy Cross!
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Post by CHC8485 on Nov 7, 2023 10:38:25 GMT -5
"I got offers from Holy Cross, Sacred Heart and Siena" "Well I've heard of Siena at least" Yes YOU have. But are you or your children applying to college? My point is the kids who are applying to college and their parents have not heard of the Siena-NYT poll because they do not watch TV news, read the newspapers, or listen to news radio. They are listening to pod casts, play lists, streaming videos and reading self selected news on their phones and tablets so they have not been exposed to the poll. In addition, like everything today, lists of college to explore are based on a computer generated list based on information you supply to the program. So if you are a solid B+ student with a strength in math and science, a 1200 SAT score and want to become a doctor the program will spit out a list of schools. And that list will tell them that Sacred Heart is in their wheel house, Siena is a safety school, and Holy Cross is a stretch school. At that point, no one is going to give a rat's ass whether or not Siena has a poll, they are going to start their research with their "personalized" list of colleges.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 7, 2023 10:46:45 GMT -5
Tell me, what audience is absorbing all the “free” publicity that costs a decent amount of money to create? I guarantee it is not college bound high schoolers. And can virtually guarantee it is very few of their parents. Perhaps it is their "bill-paying" parents or grandparents?
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Post by CHC8485 on Nov 7, 2023 11:04:25 GMT -5
Rob - See my second post. When it comes to how students and families learn about and select colleges to investigate vs. even 15 years ago .. it's a whole new world.
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Post by alum on Nov 7, 2023 11:08:20 GMT -5
Siena admits 78% of its applicants. It highlights a rating that it is the number 1 school in NY state at getting graduates jobs. My kids had a couple of classmates who went there. They liked it. We stopped in to break up a trip to Western NY once. I recall it being a pleasant campus. I imagine it attracts the same profile of kids who apply to Assumption, Stonehill, Merrimack, St. A's, St. Mike's etc.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 7, 2023 12:30:04 GMT -5
Rob - See my second post. When it comes to how students and families learn about and select colleges to investigate vs. even 15 years ago .. it's a whole new world. You...the flash briefing from Alexa always includes college polls. Those polls are not very accurate (unlike the private polls those running for office commission and for which they pay) . But the school name does get out there.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 7, 2023 13:02:59 GMT -5
Siena admits 78% of its applicants. It highlights a rating that it is the number 1 school in NY state at getting graduates jobs. My kids had a couple of classmates who went there. They liked it. We stopped in to break up a trip to Western NY once. I recall it being a pleasant campus. I imagine it attracts the same profile of kids who apply to Assumption, Stonehill, Merrimack, St. A's, St. Mike's etc. St. A's hosts presidential debates including the unique and quirky quadrennial "Lesser known candidates forum." All these things generate earned (free) media. They won't bump a school up in the USNWR rankings the next week, but they help promote the institution long term.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 7, 2023 13:07:03 GMT -5
"I got offers from Holy Cross, Sacred Heart and Siena" "Well I've heard of Siena at least" Yes YOU have. But are you or your children applying to college? My point is the kids who are applying to college and their parents have not heard of the Siena-NYT poll because they do not watch TV news, read the newspapers, or listen to news radio. They are listening to pod casts, play lists, streaming videos and reading self selected news on their phones and tablets so they have not been exposed to the poll. In addition, like everything today, lists of college to explore are based on a computer generated list based on information you supply to the program. So if you are a solid B+ student with a strength in math and science, a 1200 SAT score and want to become a doctor the program will spit out a list of schools. And that list will tell them that Sacred Heart is in their wheel house, Siena is a safety school, and Holy Cross is a stretch school. At that point, no one is going to give a rat's ass whether or not Siena has a poll, they are going to start their research with their "personalized" list of colleges. Would you at least put the poll in the "can't hurt" category? I assume it generates revenue from the media outlets who subscribe to it and perhaps provides work-study or internship opportunities for student stat-geeks. No offense to our own sports stat-geeks.🙂
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Post by newfieguy74 on Nov 7, 2023 13:13:38 GMT -5
Student supervisors Prianka Hashim (L) and Abigail Edwards (R) work with Professor of Political Science Chris Borick, director of the Muhlenberg College Institute of Public Opinion.
Bill Keller, courtesy of Muhlenberg College
First, there was door-to-door polling. A pollster, clipboard in hand, might knock on doors and ask, "Who are you going to vote for?"
Today, many of the top colleges that do public opinion polling for elections instead connect with voters over the phone. Student workers call cellphones and landlines, ask questions from a script and record answers. The four institutions -- Marist College, Monmouth University, Siena College and Muhlenberg College -- that receive an A-plus pollster rating from FiveThirtyEight, a popular analysis website, all currently use live calling.
Poll center officials from several of those universities typically said live calling makes the process accurate and student centered. Siena’s poll center employs about 150 students, with paths to advancement from interviewing to other polling jobs. Marist employs about 300 students. The polls also bring a good amount of publicity to each university, especially when they partner with news organizations.
But the live-calling system is being squeezed, and some polling centers are looking to transition to different methodologies, like online surveys or automated calling.
Don Levy, director of Siena’s polling institute, said the response rate for live calling has been steadily declining in recent decades. A poll now takes longer to complete than it did even two years ago, he said. That increased time translates to increased labor costs.
“There’s a growing hesitancy of people to simply answer a phone if they don’t know who it is,” Levy said. “Unfortunately for us, there are so many different processes that exist right now that people experience as a threat, whether it be unsolicited robocalls or unsolicited sale calls.” Newer phones also can screen out calls from numbers that are not saved contacts.
Christopher Borick, director of Muhlenberg's poll center, said the college is planning to switch to online surveys over the next few years, a method that will almost certainly use fewer students.
Muhlenberg’s polling center currently employs about 40 to 50 students, with 25 to 30 others being involved through classes. While many do calling, others work on data analysis, payroll and other areas. Many are proud to see their work making an impact, Borick said.
“You’ve kind of built your career around certain methodologies that have worked for you,” said Borick. “The reality is, the nadir of technology and communication has pushed those methods to the edge of their effectiveness. And for us, we’re right at that edge.”
He hopes the new methods will continue to keep some students at the center of the work. Polling with online surveys requires creating a panel of people who are a representative sample of a population and have opted in to taking surveys online. Students will likely be involved in managing the online panel.
“These are tough choices that are facing a lot of people at academic research organizations,” he said. “No matter what, there will be a student-heavy presence in all operations.”
Keeping Students Involved
Muhlenberg plans to wait until after the 2020 elections to begin the transition. During nonelection years, Muhlenberg and other colleges do contract polling for companies, nonprofits, school districts and libraries.
Levy said Siena's center plans to use live calling for the immediate future. Still, the college is dealing with many of the same challenges as Muhlenberg and has experimented with different methods.
“Even though telephone polling is not as efficient as it once was and it’s progressively more expensive, it remains the best methodology to get the most representative sample,” Levy said. “Everybody who does what we do is beginning to pursue other options because of the growing cost.”
Emerson College, which has a A-minus pollster rating from FiveThirtyEight, already uses automated methods for polling. Most of Emerson’s election polls are done via a mix of online surveys and a method called interactive voice response (IVR), which prompts participants to press different buttons for different survey answers.
“We’re kind of an incubator of ideas in the survey methodology area,” said Spencer Kimball, director of the center.
Students are involved in the process by doing data analysis, writing press releases and conducting studies on different methods. The polling center at Emerson typically has six to 12 student participants.
“Everything is a progression,” Kimball said, noting that polling by phone seemed crazy before it became ubiquitous. “We know this is a pretty popular method in industry.”
Florida Atlantic University, which also uses automated calling and online panels, emphasizes that these methods can help eliminate bias.
“The use of an automated polling system eliminates interviewer bias as all questions are asked in a single voice in English or Spanish,” according to the poll center's site. “IVR may be used by survey organizations for asking more sensitive questions where the investigators are concerned that a respondent might feel less comfortable providing these answers to a human interlocutor (such as questions about drug use or sexual behavior).”
Officials at Marist said that for them, live calling is here to stay.
“Telephone interviewing is still really the gold standard of doing scientific research in public opinion,” said Barbara Carvalho, director of Marist’s polling center.
Lee Miringoff, her co-director, said live calling has been proven to be accurate while the other methods are still being modeled. He said the motivation for moving to online "has not been the inaccuracy of the traditional methods, but has been cost and speed.”
The college tries to keep students heavily involved in all aspects. “The collection of scientific research is so important to so many disciplines,” Miringoff said. “This is a project that has to teach the students.”
The poll center runs an additional project, the Marist Poll Academy, which offers free online video courses on polling. Students have created scripts and animations for the academy.
Marist has done some experimenting with other methods, but only in situations where they have proven to be accurate, such for a nonprofit when a membership list is available.
Levy said there is no doubt that the industry is changing.
“This is a really interesting, some would say difficult, some would say exciting time to be a pollster,” he said. “Folks who have been in it as long as I have may not be the right ones to figure out what comes next. But there will be a next.”
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 7, 2023 17:45:50 GMT -5
No question that these polls get the universities' names out there. Let's stipulate that. Whether or not these polls somehow enhance the universities' reputations or encourage more/better applicants would be hard to determine IMO. Doesn't seem to matter vis-a-vis Holy Cross. We seem to have a greater focus on the performing arts lately.
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Post by Chu Chu on Nov 7, 2023 17:53:05 GMT -5
It seems to me that the primary benefits of doing this kind of thing are not simply reputational for the school, but instead, provide valuable access and real world experience for students. I imagine that it also serves to attract excellent faculty in statistics and political science departments. In addition, I will bet that the Siena College Polling Institute makes money, and there is nothing wrong with an "A-plus pollster rating from FiveThirtyEight". They are considered the gold standard.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 7, 2023 23:39:30 GMT -5
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 8, 2023 9:30:21 GMT -5
Literally nobody cares. That's my thoughts on it.
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Post by mm67 on Nov 8, 2023 10:20:28 GMT -5
Schools such as Siena, Quinnipiac, Marist, Monmouth, etc are second tier schools seeking to get their names in the media mix. These are schools not particularly known for elite level academic excellence. Why would HC ever place itself in the company of second tier schools? As has already been pointed out "nobody cares." For those on the board who are understandably concerned about reputation, HC placing itself in this lower category by sponsoring a political poll would do nothing for HC's academic reputation except brand HC as second rate. IMO not a good move.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 8, 2023 11:01:02 GMT -5
Schools such as Siena, Quinnipiac, Marist, Monmouth, etc are second tier schools seeking to get their names in the media mix. These are schools not particularly known for elite level academic excellence. Why would HC ever place itself in the company of second tier schools? As has already been pointed out "nobody cares." For those on the board who are understandably concerned about reputation, HC placing itself in this lower category by sponsoring a political poll would do nothing for HC's academic reputation except brand HC as second rate. IMO not a good move. Agree. HC is on the bubble with Tarleton State for an at large bid to the FCS tournament. Holy Cross doesn’t need to lower itself like Siena and associate with second rate brands like the (failing) New York Times and have "Holy Cross" referenced worldwide in conjunction with them.🙂 I'm pumped by the Crusaders' football journey in FCS but would equally enjoy the school making the news in academic/scientific areas.
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