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Post by td128 on Dec 31, 2023 13:11:24 GMT -5
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Post by bison137 on Dec 31, 2023 15:19:57 GMT -5
Actually, the main fault on this play belongs to the Lions. They tried to deceptively have multiple players run up to the ref and the ref got confused. The ref clearly announced the player that he thought had checked in, and Detroit should’ve recognized that there was confusion.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 31, 2023 16:07:15 GMT -5
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Post by CHC8485 on Dec 31, 2023 16:09:21 GMT -5
Contender for the most stupid rule in all sports.
Every other level of football and it’s up to the defense to figure out the eligible receivers by formation. You get to the NFL and, apparently, the players become stupid, so eligible receivers are identified by specific numbers and if you’re not one of those numbers, you have to tell the ref who has to inform the other team.
The refs have a hard enough time enforcing the meaningful rules. Get rid of the rule.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 31, 2023 16:10:33 GMT -5
Agreed.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 31, 2023 16:21:59 GMT -5
Re: "deception." While I can't recall the specific game, we lost on a last second field goal after Tom Gilmore called all 3 of his time outs, one after the other to try to "ice" the opposing kicker.
I saw TG maybe the following week and asked if ever considered calling 2 consecutive time outs and then go to the ref and quietly tell him, "I'm standing right next to you but I will NOT be calling a time out for a 3rd time." The opposing kicker and his team looked very much like they were expecting TG to call that last time out and appeared to be not really preparing for the kick. The hope would be that while appearing to call that 3rd TO but not doing so, would throw the kicker off having to rush the kick. FWIW, Tom said he never thought of that but it might have worked.
As I said, whoever the opponent was made the winning FG. How much more does a kicker get "iced" from the second to third time out? The larger point is deception is part of the game.
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Post by matunuck on Dec 31, 2023 17:27:46 GMT -5
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 2, 2024 9:40:29 GMT -5
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh man you guys didn't know a Cowboys fan has been coming after these cold takes on Twitter all weekend. So here I am to stir the pot for a relatively dormant thread:
- The ref has many responsibilities, especially pre-snap while the play clock ticks down. He's running away from the cavalcade of Lions players while #68 attempts to report because he has a responsibility for the Dallas defense to know #70 (who the ref thinks is reporting) is eligible. It's the ref's gaff, but why did he mess up?
- #68, who after the game would not explicitly explain what he did, only that he did "what Campbell told him to do," was initially in the huddle. Goff sent him out of the huddle to go report. #68's "oh, #@*&$~!!" moment. So right away, let's not all think the Lions were spotless in their mindset and execution of this play from the start just because they told you that A) they practiced it all week and B) they told the refs about it in advance.
- Penei Sewell, mountain of a human being, is trying to stand between the Dallas defense and the head official, seen as #68 is trotting towards the same official. #70 (who had reported eligible multiple times earlier this game, perhaps setting up the trickeration of the final play) is running towards the ref from the sideline. Did #68 actually say "report" as he claims he did in the post game interview? (Of course, he would NEVER admit: "I forgot, and when Goff sent me out of the huddle to go tell the ref, I missed my chance to get his attention as the ref was running away thinking #70 was reporting again.") Did the ref hear him? Did the ref assume #70 was reporting eligible again? All important details left to chance/referee ineptitude that the Lions could have better controlled themselves.
- INSTEAD, they tried to deceive Dallas. None of the players did the traditional hand wash/jersey number erase motion with their hands clearly rubbing over their chests. Detroit knows this immediately keys the defense to at least CONSIDER the chance that that individual can catch a pass. The Lions knew that having a bunch of players stands around the ref would create some confusion for the Dallas defense.
- Yet, the ref announces over the PA that #70 is an eligible receiver. Why do they do this? (To quote My Cousin Vinny: "It's called DISCLOZYUH, you dickhead!") THE DEFENSE HAS TO BE TOLD WHO CAN CATCH A PASS WHEN THEY LOOK LIKE, DRESS LIKE, AND HAVE A NUMBER LIKE SOMEBODY THAT NORMALLY ISN'T ALLOWED TO CATCH A PASS! Does Dallas have to be told he WILL be thrown the ball? No. Does Dallas have to be told where that player will be in the formation? No. Does Dallas have to be told where he's going to run? No. Does Dallas have to be told his name, prior position, number of times he's run routes that game, etc.? No. They just have to know it would be permitted. Dallas didn't cover him, because the refs didn't indicate he'd be worthy of needing to be covered. Is the number/reporting rule "stupid" as said above? That's a matter of conjecture, but the rule is in place and has been in place as long as people wearing 60-79 have gone out for passes. The range of numbers actually decreased as the pros moved more towards a college-level flexibility on "skill players" or more specifically, ball-touching players' numbers.
- The Lions wanted to hide who was allowed to catch a pass. Leave aside for a second that the refs made a mistake on who they thought they were told/heard the Lions wanted to be eligible. Detroit sought to deceive what the rules make clear is supposed to be loudly, clearly, and publicly confirmed: any lineman-numbered person eligible to catch the ball on that play. In this move to deceive Dallas (understandable why they may have done so, of course), the Lions also confused the officials who confirm and bestow said eligibility.
- Once the Lions heard "#70 reporting as eligible," they could have and should have called timeout. Instead they moved forward with the play that "worked," but can be argued it only worked because it was illegal. The ref's flag holds that position that the play was impermissible as executed.
You can tell a ref "I'm going to do X, Y, and Z," beforehand, but that still doesn't mean they now have the obligation to remember all your iterations on the playbook 3 hours later and be on the lookout for it. It's different from calling out illegal actions that you see and should be flagged ("That OT on KC traditionally lines up off the line of scrimmage every snap," or, "Patrick Peterson is grabbing my guys' shoulder pads.") to indicate the potential for something that may or may not ever happen: "If the situation arises, I am probably going to do something that is legal but confusing for the other team so please let it go because I'm following the rules."
I think was extremely prepared and wise for Campbell to do this before the game. I admire him as a coach. Yet, there's no guarantee any ref is going to remember a pregame speech about play design quirks when you're launching smoke screens all over the most tense point of the game when the clock ticking. The head official was reportedly not even in that pre-game meeting.
Campbell still could have kicked the FG and went to OT. If it works out and they score the 2PT conversion, or win in OT, nobody's arguing that play anymore. We'd be hearing 500 talking heads on TV and radio call the Cowboys choke artists. Instead, the Lions, and the vast majority of other NFL fans who hate the Cowboys, are bitching about refs. What about the tripping penalty called a few plays earlier against Dallas TE Hendershot (#87)? The replay clearly indicates that Detroit DE Hutchison (#97) committed the actual tripping offense. Not only must have the head official confused/misheard "ninety-seven" with "eighty-seven" when told the offender by his referee counterpart, but he confused/misheard "Detroit" with "Dallas" too. If that penalty was correctly called, Dallas runs the clock out and Detroit doesn't get the ball back with nearly as much time, if any at all, to come back down the field and attempt to tie/win the game.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 2, 2024 11:11:25 GMT -5
Ahh, I think we've just identified another lawyer in our midst. P.S. All Crossporters know the REAL reason the Lions lost was because Kalif is woefully underutilized . . . . . because Goff can't reach him downfield!
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Post by gks on Jan 2, 2024 12:14:17 GMT -5
Contender for the most stupid rule in all sports. Every other level of football and it’s up to the defense to figure out the eligible receivers by formation. You get to the NFL and, apparently, the players become stupid, so eligible receivers are identified by specific numbers and if you’re not one of those numbers, you have to tell the ref who has to inform the other team. The refs have a hard enough time enforcing the meaningful rules. Get rid of the rule. 100% agree on this. Remember when the Patriots lined up a RB in an ineligible spot against the Ravens in a playoff game? He reported and the officials even told the defense and the Ravens still guarded him.
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Post by timholycross on Jan 2, 2024 12:38:46 GMT -5
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh man you guys didn't know a Cowboys fan has been coming after these cold takes on Twitter all weekend. So here I am to stir the pot for a relatively dormant thread: - The ref has many responsibilities, especially pre-snap while the play clock ticks down. He's running away from the cavalcade of Lions players while #68 attempts to report because he has a responsibility for the Dallas defense to know #70 (who the ref thinks is reporting) is eligible. It's the ref's gaff, but why did he mess up? - #68, who after the game would not explicitly explain what he did, only that he did "what Campbell told him to do," was initially in the huddle. Goff sent him out of the huddle to go report. #68's "oh, #@*&$~!!" moment. So right away, let's not all think the Lions were spotless in their mindset and execution of this play from the start just because they told you that A) they practiced it all week and B) they told the refs about it in advance. - Penei Sewell, mountain of a human being, is trying to stand between the Dallas defense and the head official, seen as #68 is trotting towards the same official. #70 (who had reported eligible multiple times earlier this game, perhaps setting up the trickeration of the final play) is running towards the ref from the sideline. Did #68 actually say "report" as he claims he did in the post game interview? (Of course, he would NEVER admit: "I forgot, and when Goff sent me out of the huddle to go tell the ref, I missed my chance to get his attention as the ref was running away thinking #70 was reporting again.") Did the ref hear him? Did the ref assume #70 was reporting eligible again? All important details left to chance/referee ineptitude that the Lions could have better controlled themselves. - INSTEAD, they tried to deceive Dallas. None of the players did the traditional hand wash/jersey number erase motion with their hands clearly rubbing over their chests. Detroit knows this immediately keys the defense to at least CONSIDER the chance that that individual can catch a pass. The Lions knew that having a bunch of players stands around the ref would create some confusion for the Dallas defense. - Yet, the ref announces over the PA that #70 is an eligible receiver. Why do they do this? (To quote My Cousin Vinny: "It's called DISCLOZYUH, you dickhead!") THE DEFENSE HAS TO BE TOLD WHO CAN CATCH A PASS WHEN THEY LOOK LIKE, DRESS LIKE, AND HAVE A NUMBER LIKE SOMEBODY THAT NORMALLY ISN'T ALLOWED TO CATCH A PASS! Does Dallas have to be told he WILL be thrown the ball? No. Does Dallas have to be told where that player will be in the formation? No. Does Dallas have to be told where he's going to run? No. Does Dallas have to be told his name, prior position, number of times he's run routes that game, etc.? No. They just have to know it would be permitted. Dallas didn't cover him, because the refs didn't indicate he'd be worthy of needing to be covered. Is the number/reporting rule "stupid" as said above? That's a matter of conjecture, but the rule is in place and has been in place as long as people wearing 60-79 have gone out for passes. The range of numbers actually decreased as the pros moved more towards a college-level flexibility on "skill players" or more specifically, ball-touching players' numbers. - The Lions wanted to hide who was allowed to catch a pass. Leave aside for a second that the refs made a mistake on who they thought they were told/heard the Lions wanted to be eligible. Detroit sought to deceive what the rules make clear is supposed to be loudly, clearly, and publicly confirmed: any lineman-numbered person eligible to catch the ball on that play. In this move to deceive Dallas (understandable why they may have done so, of course), the Lions also confused the officials who confirm and bestow said eligibility. - Once the Lions heard "#70 reporting as eligible," they could have and should have called timeout. Instead they moved forward with the play that "worked," but can be argued it only worked because it was illegal. The ref's flag holds that position that the play was impermissible as executed. You can tell a ref "I'm going to do X, Y, and Z," beforehand, but that still doesn't mean they now have the obligation to remember all your iterations on the playbook 3 hours later and be on the lookout for it. It's different from calling out illegal actions that you see and should be flagged ("That OT on KC traditionally lines up off the line of scrimmage every snap," or, "Patrick Peterson is grabbing my guys' shoulder pads.") to indicate the potential for something that may or may not ever happen: "If the situation arises, I am probably going to do something that is legal but confusing for the other team so please let it go because I'm following the rules." I think was extremely prepared and wise for Campbell to do this before the game. I admire him as a coach. Yet, there's no guarantee any ref is going to remember a pregame speech about play design quirks when you're launching smoke screens all over the most tense point of the game when the clock ticking. The head official was reportedly not even in that pre-game meeting. Campbell still could have kicked the FG and went to OT. If it works out and they score the 2PT conversion, or win in OT, nobody's arguing that play anymore. We'd be hearing 500 talking heads on TV and radio call the Cowboys choke artists. Instead, the Lions, and the vast majority of other NFL fans who hate the Cowboys, are bitching about refs. What about the tripping penalty called a few plays earlier against Dallas TE Hendershot (#87)? The replay clearly indicates that Detroit DE Hutchison (#97) committed the actual tripping offense. Not only must have the head official confused/misheard "ninety-seven" with "eighty-seven" when told the offender by his referee counterpart, but he confused/misheard "Detroit" with "Dallas" too. If that penalty was correctly called, Dallas runs the clock out and Detroit doesn't get the ball back with nearly as much time, if any at all, to come back down the field and attempt to tie/win the game. OK, except Detroit had no time outs left. I'd probably have kicked the tying points when pushed back to the 7. However, it's a 40 yard attempt at that point, not a 35 yard attempt, because of the 5 yard penalty.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 2, 2024 15:40:17 GMT -5
Detroit having no timeouts left is their fault for myriad reasons. They chose to confuse for reasons that are not allowed-- the ref is going to say who is eligible over a PA system to the whole stadium-- and only possible confusion that could legally occur, did: the refs got lost. Detroit was made to suffer the consequences.
I understand the logic of going for the win: you might never get the ball back, you might never be on the five or two or seven yard line in OT... but I like having multiple downs to make a play instead of a winner-take-all play after the letdown of the penalized and disallowed prior 2PT try. I'd kick the FG and hope to get the ball back in OT.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 2, 2024 15:41:28 GMT -5
the refs got lost. Detroit was made to suffer the consequences. So, it kinda was the refs fault then?
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 2, 2024 15:46:36 GMT -5
Kinda, of course. But if Detroit didn't try to pull some shady sneaky stuff, which was an effort in futility in the first place, the refs wouldn't have had anything to get tripped up on (aside from the normal holding, PI, and other missed call nonsense on a play-to-play basis). If Detroit's scheme-- again, wouldn't have been allowed to throw Dallas off much anyway-- was dependent on the refs being Rhodes Scholars, then I think they deserve quite a bit of blame too.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 2, 2024 16:19:54 GMT -5
Quote directly from Dan Campbell today, which I did not read until now [my emphasis in bold below]:
“You’re not worried about the officials, because you’ve already explained it,” Campbell said Tuesday. “You’ve already explained the whole thing. It’s the defense you’re trying to confuse. They’re going to know what it is because the number’s going to be called out over the PA, you’re just hoping somebody falls asleep. They see (Dan) Skipper run out and they’re like, ‘Oh, it’s the jumbo tight end again,’ and they don’t realize that 68 is the one who reported eligible. If they’re on their stuff, it’s not going to matter, anyway. If they’re listening, they’re going to know 68’s eligible, unless it gets called wrong.”
So there you have it. He admits that he was trying to confuse the defense, but the refs were going to clarify what was actually happening anyway, and also acknowledged a vulnerability to his plan that the refs might call it wrong. Campbell is smart and knows this in hindsight. We've seen enough O-linemen catch TDs that he could have sent #68 solely, clearly, definitively to report as eligible and chances were good they'd catch the Cowboys napping anyway.
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