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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 20, 2024 15:21:49 GMT -5
The top 4/5 Ivy football programs have offered their best players $20-25k summer internships for years which consist of showing up to a corporate office for a few hours a week. Call that what you will. They don’t pay $ to their best players in the same way they happen to have ~70-80 Scholi equivalents despite being “non scholarship football” and don’t play in the football postseason cause it would interfere with academics and finals. All a bunch of BS optics. There are many on this board that will think everything you just typed is hogwash. That the precious Ivies would never play loose with the rules. Thank you for further enlightening those that need it. And what rules did the Ivies play loose with?
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hc69
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 219
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Post by hc69 on Mar 20, 2024 15:23:10 GMT -5
The top 4/5 Ivy football programs have offered their best players $20-25k summer internships for years which consist of showing up to a corporate office for a few hours a week. Do you have hard evidence to support this? Who are these best players? What are these corporate offices? I don't need all of them, a representative half-dozen or so of each will be sufficient.
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Post by mm67 on Mar 20, 2024 16:23:29 GMT -5
IL derangement?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 20, 2024 17:35:05 GMT -5
A few years ago, there was a HC women's basketball player, a star and maybe even the captain, who had a summer internship on Wall St. with a top firm, Goldman Sachs?, and IIRC, then went to work at that firm after she graduated. High-paying summer internships aren't confined to the IL. For Harvard, for a "typical" financial aid recipient, in 2022-23 (< the cost of attendance was $80,000), $13,000 of that was a "family contribution"; $350 was a student asset contribution (term was not defined); and $2,750 was from student employment (10-12 hours a week) at Harvard during the academic year. (If a student did not want to work, he/she can take out a loan for that amount.) The remainder, $64,500, was covered by scholarship grants. I am not begrudging any Harvard student who has a summer internship at a Boston area financial firm that pays well, with flexible enough hours that an athlete can engage in on-campus strength and conditioning programs. Nor would I begrudge any HC student / athlete who did the same. My second-hand understanding (last decade) is that Harvard athletes working in a Boston area financial firm worked at least half or three quarter days. The NCAA limits off-season workouts to eight hours a week. ---------------------------------------------------- Looked at the Yale roster, selecting seniors (1) who were not majoring in engineering, architecture, sciences, etc., and (2) selected those with majors who might have had a summer internship on Wall Street. For the selected seniors, I then looked for their LinkedIn profile. LinkedIn is screwing with how the links to their LinkedIn profiles are posted. Okay solved it. Click on the / to see their LinkedIn profile. That's not working in all cases either. Okay solved. The profiles appear only if you have already downloaded the LinkedIn profile to your computer. / ^^^ Playing at UNLV with his fifth year of eligibility ^^^ In the NFL combine ^^^ The QB
%E2%80%99shaunte-holloway-0ba23b209/^^^ A RB That link works
/^^^ LB, fifth year at UCLA
/^^^ LB, financial-related employment, but in senior year and post-graduation.
/^^^ A WR, summer internship with Morgan Stanley in Florida Not a very big sample, but for Yale football anyway, no indication that numerous players have summer jobs on Wall St arranged by Yale alums who have made it on Wall St.
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Post by gks on Mar 20, 2024 18:01:01 GMT -5
This can get back to the discussion of the NIL which is great work by those involved.
But...
Anyone else notice that it's the same four defending the honourable traits that the Ivy League holds?
Those that know, know the Ivies play at a great advantage. Those that don't pretend it's 1965 and Doonesbury is scoring TDs for Yale.
Oh and by the way....the Ivy League schools could care less about the PL. This admiration is Pearl Street.....one way.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 21, 2024 8:32:04 GMT -5
If HC was located in the Dakotas we would play OOC games against those teams. FCS is by design or practice regional to reduce costs to match lower revenue than in FBS. With traditional rivals Northeastern and B.U. dropping FB and UConn, BC and UMass now in FBS, HC is left with fewer regional foes and Crossporters squawk when newer, up from D-2 potential opponents like Central Connecticut, Bryant, Merrimack, Stonehill, Sacred Heart are mentioned.
HC has scheduled traditional rivals who have moved up like UConn, Buffalo, Army, BC, Syracuse. Many would like to also schedule FCS powers William and Mary, Richmond, Villanova, but traveling to play them has a similar expense as traveling to Buffalo or Syracuse with no fat FBS check to offset it and justify having a one-way Pearl Street relationship with no return game at Fitton.
Villanova plays the Philadelphia area PL teams, Harvard and Yale play us and no hotel rooms get rented. It's FCS which allows us to get to the national post season four years in a row but doesn't allow us to travel like an FBS team unless a second pool of NIL-like money is funded by the same heroic group of supporters to pay for it and I don't mind that group of purple heros being shown some mercy.
Feel good that CAA teams in shouting distance, UNH and URI are being scheduled. Naturally, I have no specific knowledge of the HC athletic budget to prove my point but that's my best understanding of how it works within the realities of FCS. Watch Kit schedule SDSU and get a check towards travel expenses, maybe it is possible.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Mar 21, 2024 11:55:55 GMT -5
Oh and by the way....the Ivy League schools could care less about the PL. This admiration is Pearl Street.....one way. If they ever did. The New England Ivies will maintain good relations with HC and Colgate, while Penn and Princeton will keep in touch with Lehigh and Lafayette. The Ivies have already checked out on Georgetown and Bucknell going forward.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 21, 2024 12:19:18 GMT -5
Oh and by the way....the Ivy League schools could care less about the PL. This admiration is Pearl Street.....one way. If they ever did. The New England Ivies will maintain good relations with HC and Colgate, while Penn and Princeton will keep in touch with Lehigh and Lafayette. The Ivies have already checked out on Georgetown and Bucknell going forward. Does GU have NIL for BB? That could be a light at the end of the tunnel for GU FB. It could be sold to GU boosters as equitable because BB NIL would be going to students who already have a full athletic scholarship, while in FB it would be providing something to hard working student athletes repping Georgetown for no compensation other than an ace bandage and some liniment.
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Post by hc6774 on Mar 21, 2024 12:37:23 GMT -5
If they ever did. The New England Ivies will maintain good relations with HC and Colgate, while Penn and Princeton will keep in touch with Lehigh and Lafayette. The Ivies have already checked out on Georgetown and Bucknell going forward. Does GU have NIL for BB? That could be a light at the end of the tunnel for GU FB. It could be sold to GU boosters as equitable because BB NIL would be going to students who already have a full athletic scholarship, while in FB it would be providing something to hard working student athletes repping Georgetown for no compensation other than an ace bandage and some liniment. note the endorsement by Coach Cooley guhoyas.com/news/2023/5/23/general-hoyas-rising-an-nil-collaborative-for-georgetown-student-athletes-launches-today.aspx
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hc69
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 219
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Post by hc69 on Mar 21, 2024 13:28:19 GMT -5
The amount of NIL money the collective can raise is limited by the number of alumni we have. If Georgetown gets serious about NIL, their roughly 225,000 alumni can raise a lot more money than can our roughly 40,000. Suppose the Ivies decide in a couple of years that they need to get into the NIL business to stay competitive? What they could raise would make what we could raise seem like chump change.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. No matter how we try to pretty this up, it's about paying players. I don't like it but I agree we have to do it. We have to realize that many of the schools with which we compete for players may be able to raise more money than we can. We may lose more of those bidding wars than we'll win. What no one wants to see is what I fear is coming. In our major sports our best players will no longer be student athletes who are here for the education. They'll be hired guns here for the money, using the ever-expanding transfer portal to go elsewhere for more money. That's already the case in big-time D1 football and basketball. Nothing makes me optimistic that it won't eventually trickle down to our level. The best players in the major sports will win, everyone else loses.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 21, 2024 13:32:38 GMT -5
PC (21-14) survived Coach Cooley, GU (9-23) not so much.
Gu's NIL aims to support 800 student athletes, HC's about 110. In practice the MBB players at GU probably see most of the benefit. GU FB has an opportunity to better compete with scholarship schools in the PL by dwarfing their NIL payouts, but that's a big ask.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 21, 2024 13:35:51 GMT -5
The amount of NIL money the collective can raise is limited by the number of alumni we have. If Georgetown gets serious about NIL, their roughly 225,000 alumni can raise a lot more money than can our roughly 40,000. Suppose the Ivies decide in a couple of years that they need to get into the NIL business to stay competitive? What they could raise would make what we could raise seem like chump change. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. No matter how we try to pretty this up, it's about paying players. I don't like it but I agree we have to do it. We have to realize that many of the schools with which we compete for players may be able to raise more money than we can. We may lose more of those bidding wars than we'll win. What no one wants to see is what I fear is coming. In our major sports our best players will no longer be student athletes who are here for the education. They'll be hired guns here for the money, using the ever-expanding transfer portal to go elsewhere for more money. That's already the case in big-time D1 football and basketball. Nothing makes me optimistic that it won't eventually trickle down to our level. The best players in the major sports will win, everyone else loses. Thank God we didn't jump from the PL to a higher level conference right before NIL. We have some protection among our peer partner schools.
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Post by football44 on Mar 21, 2024 15:10:36 GMT -5
This is why we do what we do. Like it or not Holy Cross has to stay competitive in the world of NIL.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Mar 21, 2024 15:49:59 GMT -5
The top 4/5 Ivy football programs have offered their best players $20-25k summer internships for years which consist of showing up to a corporate office for a few hours a week. Do you have hard evidence to support this? Who are these best players? What are these corporate offices? I don't need all of them, a representative half-dozen or so of each will be sufficient. By hard evidence are you asking for names, time sheets, pay stubs etc.? You sound surprised. Here’s what “evidence” I have and yes most is anecdotal. In my line of work (finance/inv consulting) I’ve known several colleagues, clients and competitors over two decades that played Ivy League ball. Off the top of my head, alums from HYP and Penn have told me some version of the above as we reminisce about when we played and what’s going on now. I would note one of those 4 played in the NFL for 3 seasons and had one of these gold plated summer internships. By corp offices I’m not referring to Fortune 500 companies, I’m referring to S-Corps, LLCs and LPs owned and operated by booster type alums. Hedge Funds / VC / PE, REITs and insurance brokerages to name a few. A flatter organization where a player can show up a few times a week, answer the phones, tinker on excel and maybe do some guided research. As far as “hard evidence”, I guess I could screen shot my text chains with Gilmore or Chesney. Specifically more recently from Bob talking about an OL recruit we lost to Princeton as they promised a 20k summer internship. But I’m not going to that obviously. If you don’t believe this happens or that they don’t have scholi equivalents > 63, I don’t know what to say to you at this point. You must think all these people are collectively lying.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 21, 2024 16:25:53 GMT -5
Do you have hard evidence to support this? Who are these best players? What are these corporate offices? I don't need all of them, a representative half-dozen or so of each will be sufficient. By hard evidence are you asking for names, time sheets, pay stubs etc.? You sound surprised. Here’s what “evidence” I have and yes most is anecdotal. In my line of work (finance/inv consulting) I’ve known several colleagues, clients and competitors over two decades that played Ivy League ball. Off the top of my head, alums from HYP and Penn have told me some version of the above as we reminisce about when we played and what’s going on now. I would note one of those 4 played in the NFL for 3 seasons and had one of these gold plated summer internships. By corp offices I’m not referring to Fortune 500 companies, I’m referring to S-Corps, LLCs and LPs owned and operated by booster type alums. Hedge Funds / VC / PE, REITs and insurance brokerages to name a few. A flatter organization where a player can show up a few times a week, answer the phones, tinker on excel and maybe do some guided research. As far as “hard evidence”, I guess I could screen shot my text chains with Gilmore or Chesney. Specifically more recently from Bob talking about an OL recruit we lost to Princeton as they promised a 20k summer internship. But I’m not going to that obviously. If you don’t believe this happens or that they don’t have scholi equivalents > 63, I don’t know what to say to you at this point. You must think all these people are collectively lying. Further evidence backing up Midwest Sader is the impressive seedings received by IL M&W BB teams in the NCAA tournaments this year. Their placements belie their non-scholarship status. I like and admire the IL but it's obvious HC has to do everything it can to keep up with them.
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Post by alum on Mar 22, 2024 12:40:40 GMT -5
The top 4/5 Ivy football programs have offered their best players $20-25k summer internships for years which consist of showing up to a corporate office for a few hours a week. Call that what you will. They don’t pay $ to their best players in the same way they happen to have ~70-80 Scholi equivalents despite being “non scholarship football” and don’t play in the football postseason cause it would interfere with academics and finals. All a bunch of BS optics. There are many on this board that will think everything you just typed is hogwash. That the precious Ivies would never play loose with the rules. Thank you for further enlightening those that need it. It is not all hogwash. Just some of it. I have no doubt that the Ivies, especially HYP, have internship and placement programs which make 90 wide look like a temp service. That has certainly been true for decades. As to the scholarship equivalencies, I couldn't tell whether you thought the Ivies were lying about their equivalencies or were referencing the provision below which exempts them from the equivalency calculations. (I realize that many here think that Ivy teams give full rides without regard to financial need, but I have never heard anything but ancedotes about somebody that somebody knows. I would also point that the federal antitrust litigation pending in USDC for Connecticut --Choh v. Brown, et al---is based on the allegation that nobody is getting undeserved finanical aid in the Ivies just because they can play a sport.) 15.5.6.2.1 Exception -- Championship Subdivision. Championship subdivision football programs that meet the following criteria are exempt from the championship subdivision football counter requirements of Bylaws 15.5.1 and 15.5.6, regardless of multisport student-athletes who receive athletics aid in a sport other than football: (Revised: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94, 1/10/95, 10/31/02 effective 8/1/03, 12/15/06, 10/4/23)
(a) In football, the institution awards financial aid only to student-athletes who demonstrate financial need, except loans, academic honor awards, nonathletics achievement awards, or certain aid from outside sources may be provided without regard to financial need;
(b) The institution uses methodologies for analyzing need that conform to federal, state and written institutional guidelines. The methodologies used to determine the need of a student-athlete must be consistent with the methodologies used by the institution's financial aid office for all students; and
(c) The composition of the financial aid package offered to football student-athletes is consistent with the policy established for offering financial assistance to all students. The financial aid packages for football student-athletes also shall meet the following criteria:
(1) The institution shall not consider athletics ability as a criterion in the formulation of any football student-athlete's financial aid package; and
(2) The procedures used to award financial aid to football student-athletes must be the same as the existing financial aid procedures used for all students at the institution.
Feel free to complain about the fact that the Ivies have the above rule which is pretty much just for them since the PL started giving football scholarships. I am all with you that it isn't fair. Oh, and my quick research here also tells me that institutional need based financial aid doesn't count toward equivlencies in any sports except football and hoops which might explain the success Ivies have in many of those sports. Oh, and one more thought. The Ivies will be giving athletic scholarships within 5 years.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 22, 2024 12:45:06 GMT -5
Is that 5 year scholarship start a fact, or opinion?
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Post by alum on Mar 22, 2024 12:58:33 GMT -5
Is that 5 year schlarship start a fact, or opinion? A prediction based upon the marketplace and aggressive private antitrust enforcement.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Mar 22, 2024 13:20:09 GMT -5
There are many on this board that will think everything you just typed is hogwash. That the precious Ivies would never play loose with the rules. Thank you for further enlightening those that need it. It is not all hogwash. Just some of it. I have no doubt that the Ivies, especially HYP, have internship and placement programs which make 90 wide look like a temp service. That has certainly been true for decades. As to the scholarship equivalencies, I couldn't tell whether you thought the Ivies were lying about their equivalencies or were referencing the provision below which exempts them from the equivalency calculations. (I realize that many here think that Ivy teams give full rides without regard to financial need, but I have never heard anything but ancedotes about somebody that somebody knows. I would also point that the federal antitrust litigation pending in USDC for Connecticut --Choh v. Brown, et al---is based on the allegation that nobody is getting undeserved finanical aid in the Ivies just because they can play a sport.) 15.5.6.2.1 Exception -- Championship Subdivision. Championship subdivision football programs that meet the following criteria are exempt from the championship subdivision football counter requirements of Bylaws 15.5.1 and 15.5.6, regardless of multisport student-athletes who receive athletics aid in a sport other than football: (Revised: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94, 1/10/95, 10/31/02 effective 8/1/03, 12/15/06, 10/4/23)
(a) In football, the institution awards financial aid only to student-athletes who demonstrate financial need, except loans, academic honor awards, nonathletics achievement awards, or certain aid from outside sources may be provided without regard to financial need;
(b) The institution uses methodologies for analyzing need that conform to federal, state and written institutional guidelines. The methodologies used to determine the need of a student-athlete must be consistent with the methodologies used by the institution's financial aid office for all students; and
(c) The composition of the financial aid package offered to football student-athletes is consistent with the policy established for offering financial assistance to all students. The financial aid packages for football student-athletes also shall meet the following criteria:
(1) The institution shall not consider athletics ability as a criterion in the formulation of any football student-athlete's financial aid package; and
(2) The procedures used to award financial aid to football student-athletes must be the same as the existing financial aid procedures used for all students at the institution.
Feel free to complain about the fact that the Ivies have the above rule which is pretty much just for them since the PL started giving football scholarships. I am all with you that it isn't fair. Oh, and my quick research here also tells me that institutional need based financial aid doesn't count toward equivlencies in any sports except football and hoops which might explain the success Ivies have in many of those sports. Oh, and one more thought. The Ivies will be giving athletic scholarships within 5 years. No I’m NOT saying Ivies give aid to Households that don’t quality. What I am saying is the endowments have gotten so damn big that HYP can give a full ride to any HH with an AGI under ~150k and partials up to ~250k. That’s like 85% of the country. So when you aggregate all of that fin aid and / or academic based merit aid, their total equivalents are well above 63 and closer to 80. We still benefit from this model in rare circumstances where we compete for a player from a high AGI HH where the Ivies can’t match us. There is one player specifically from this incoming class that I’m confident we were able to offer a lot more $$ as their “package” from the Ivies was relatively “small” as he didn’t qualify for any financial aid. We won that recruiting battle cause we could offer an official athletic scholarship. Any part of this hogwash? If so, take it up with Gilmore and Chesney. My bigger thought is that most all students from the Ivies (not just preferred football and hoops players) will be on full rides eventually as the endowments keep growing. As Warren Buffet said “financial compounding is the 8th wonder of the world.”
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Post by midwestsader05 on Mar 22, 2024 13:38:41 GMT -5
We were technically on this model during the “non-scholi” era from 1992-2014. The major difference being that without the financial resources we weren’t close to the 1-AA number of 63. Gilmore would tell you when he took over in 2004 ours and Georgetown’s equivalents were ~40, Bucknell mid 40’s and Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham and Laffy ~50-55.
This is again why the top 2-3 teams in the PL were damn good during that era and could make noise OOC and postseason. You have to be more creative and selective, but you can field a pretty dangerous 1-AA squad with 50-55, good coaches and culture.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 22, 2024 13:39:26 GMT -5
For people aged 45 (figure few in their 30's have 18YO children) a family income of $150,651 is 90th percentile
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Post by alum on Mar 22, 2024 13:56:00 GMT -5
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Post by midwestsader05 on Mar 22, 2024 14:08:46 GMT -5
We were technically on this model during the “non-scholi” era from 1992-2014. The major difference being that without the financial resources we weren’t close to the 1-AA number of 63. Gilmore would tell you when he took over in 2004 ours and Georgetown’s equivalents were ~40, Bucknell mid40’s and Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham and Laffy ~50-55. This is again why the top 2-3 teams in the PL were damn good during that era and could make noise OOC and postseason. You have to be more creative and selective, but you can field a pretty dangerous 1-AA squad with 50-55, good coaches and culture. And as a current use case, look how competitive Curran’s Merrimack teams were last 3 years with closer to D2 level scholarships (36).They played us tough all 3 years (beat our ass once) and HC was rolling with 60.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 22, 2024 17:50:16 GMT -5
I feel good about Coach Curran. Head Coach leadership skills are second nature to him now and he can concentrate fully on building a great 2004 team.
I don't think HC has someone with exact experience in Athletic Administration to effectively mentor people who are a head coach for the first time, especially in a major sport in D-1 at Holy Cross. Former hockey coach David Berard is actually the Deputy AD for coaching excellence now at PC so he probably mentors head coaches and he has the correct experience as he learned his lessons at Holy Cross.
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hc69
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 219
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Post by hc69 on Mar 22, 2024 20:43:55 GMT -5
It is not all hogwash. Just some of it. I have no doubt that the Ivies, especially HYP, have internship and placement programs which make 90 wide look like a temp service. That has certainly been true for decades. As to the scholarship equivalencies, I couldn't tell whether you thought the Ivies were lying about their equivalencies or were referencing the provision below which exempts them from the equivalency calculations. (I realize that many here think that Ivy teams give full rides without regard to financial need, but I have never heard anything but ancedotes about somebody that somebody knows. I would also point that the federal antitrust litigation pending in USDC for Connecticut --Choh v. Brown, et al---is based on the allegation that nobody is getting undeserved finanical aid in the Ivies just because they can play a sport.) 15.5.6.2.1 Exception -- Championship Subdivision. Championship subdivision football programs that meet the following criteria are exempt from the championship subdivision football counter requirements of Bylaws 15.5.1 and 15.5.6, regardless of multisport student-athletes who receive athletics aid in a sport other than football: (Revised: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94, 1/10/95, 10/31/02 effective 8/1/03, 12/15/06, 10/4/23)
(a) In football, the institution awards financial aid only to student-athletes who demonstrate financial need, except loans, academic honor awards, nonathletics achievement awards, or certain aid from outside sources may be provided without regard to financial need;
(b) The institution uses methodologies for analyzing need that conform to federal, state and written institutional guidelines. The methodologies used to determine the need of a student-athlete must be consistent with the methodologies used by the institution's financial aid office for all students; and
(c) The composition of the financial aid package offered to football student-athletes is consistent with the policy established for offering financial assistance to all students. The financial aid packages for football student-athletes also shall meet the following criteria:
(1) The institution shall not consider athletics ability as a criterion in the formulation of any football student-athlete's financial aid package; and
(2) The procedures used to award financial aid to football student-athletes must be the same as the existing financial aid procedures used for all students at the institution.
Feel free to complain about the fact that the Ivies have the above rule which is pretty much just for them since the PL started giving football scholarships. I am all with you that it isn't fair. Oh, and my quick research here also tells me that institutional need based financial aid doesn't count toward equivlencies in any sports except football and hoops which might explain the success Ivies have in many of those sports. Oh, and one more thought. The Ivies will be giving athletic scholarships within 5 years. No I’m NOT saying Ivies give aid to Households that don’t quality. What I am saying is the endowments have gotten so damn big that HYP can give a full ride to any HH with an AGI under ~150k. Not true, and you know better than to make a statement of "fact" that can easily be checked. Harvard has an online financial aid calculator. Plug in a family of four with an AGI of $150K and no other assets.Their expected parental contribution is not $0 as you claim, but $18K. To get to a $0 parental contribution, AGI has to drop to about $90K. If the family has assets, which is almost certain for a family with an AGI of $150K, the expected contribution will go up.
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