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Post by longsuffering on May 7, 2024 12:41:40 GMT -5
Happy 93rd Birthday to the " Say Hey Kid ", Willie Mays.....for my money, the most complete player of all time.....He basically invented the term " 5 tool player "....God only knows how many home runs he would have hit if he wasn't condemned to play in Candlestick Park, with those foggy 50 degree nights......in JULY !!!!! Maybe the Giants should have stayed at Seals Stadium as they ended up downtown anyway. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seals_Stadium
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 7, 2024 13:43:14 GMT -5
Interesting debate as we look at these two all-time greats. As people make their case for the great Willie Mays let's at least spike this notion that his home runs were reduced by playing in Candlestick Park. Willie McCovey came first to mind as he played there for years and was one of the greatest HR hitters in history, but his stats were dismissed because he batted left-handed. So here are three other Giants who all batted right-handed.
Felipe Alou hit 1 HR per 26.0 at bats at Candlestick and 1 per 38.2 at bats in other ballparks. Orlando Cepeda hit 1 HR per 17.6 at bats at Candlestick and 1 per 22.0 at bats in other ballparks Bobby Bonds hit 1 HR per 19.5 at bats at Candlestick and 1 per 22.0 at bats in other ballparks.
Those are the facts.
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Post by mm67 on May 7, 2024 14:27:19 GMT -5
The comparison above is quite limited. A while back I had presented a more exhaustive statistical breakdown which clearly favored Mays in hitting & fielding. Also Mays was far superior in the intangibles of fielding (not merely catching the ball) and running the bases. We're not merely talking speed, we're talking about controlling the flow of a game on the base paths. Won't dive back into the stats. Suffice it to say there is not one major rating agency which has Mantle the equal of Mays. Willie is ranked in the top 3. Mantle is not. Look it up. I wish you had presented it on this forum because we have not seen any presentation here proving that Mays was a better hitter than Mantle. As I stated I did present the stats on this board which clearly show Mays was the far better hitter. Possibly you forgot. You can look it up for yourself. Mays - Mantle has long been settled but there are always a few die hards. It is not an issue. There is no real discussion today. Mays was by far the better hitter and all around player. Time to move on. Peace
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 7, 2024 15:10:30 GMT -5
Wow!
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Post by alum on May 7, 2024 15:48:58 GMT -5
So we aren't going to agree on who was better--the Say Hey Kid or the Commerce Comet-- but I would hope that we can all agree that neither was as good as the Splendid Splinter, the self described "greatest hitter who ever lived," Ted Williams.
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Post by hc1998 on May 8, 2024 7:25:25 GMT -5
So we aren't going to agree on who was better--the Say Hey Kid or the Commerce Comet-- but I would hope that we can all agree that neither was as good as the Splendid Splinter, the self described "greatest hitter who ever lived," Ted Williams. There can certainly be a case made for Williams. Mays' career WAR is also higher than Ted's, but mainly due to the longer career. Their WAR/162 is similar, 8.6 for Williams, 8.4 for Mays. And Williams missed 3 years for military service to Mays' 1, and unlike Mays where we don't know what player we would have had in the year he missed (he hit .236 with 4 homers the year before his military service, .345 with 41 the year he returned), its safe to say Williams would have been one of the best players in baseball during the 3 seasons he missed..he was second in MVP voting in each of the 2 years preceding his service and was 1st, 2nd, 2nd, and 1st in the four years following.
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Post by alum on May 8, 2024 7:31:45 GMT -5
So we aren't going to agree on who was better--the Say Hey Kid or the Commerce Comet-- but I would hope that we can all agree that neither was as good as the Splendid Splinter, the self described "greatest hitter who ever lived," Ted Williams. There can certainly be a case made for Williams. Mays' career WAR is also higher than Ted's, but mainly due to the longer career. Their WAR/162 is similar, 8.6 for Williams, 8.4 for Mays. And Williams missed 3 years for military service to Mays' 1, and unlike Mays where we don't know what player we would have had in the year he missed (he hit .236 with 4 homers the year before his military service, .345 with 41 the year he returned), its safe to say Williams would have been one of the best players in baseball during the 3 seasons he missed..he was second in MVP voting in each of the 2 years preceding his service and was 1st, 2nd, 2nd, and 1st in the four years following. The only quibble I have with your thoughts is that Ted really missed almost five seasons. He was also in the Marines during 1952 and 1953 but played six games at the start of the 1952 season and thirty seven at the end of 1953.
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Post by hc1998 on May 8, 2024 7:39:16 GMT -5
There can certainly be a case made for Williams. Mays' career WAR is also higher than Ted's, but mainly due to the longer career. Their WAR/162 is similar, 8.6 for Williams, 8.4 for Mays. And Williams missed 3 years for military service to Mays' 1, and unlike Mays where we don't know what player we would have had in the year he missed (he hit .236 with 4 homers the year before his military service, .345 with 41 the year he returned), its safe to say Williams would have been one of the best players in baseball during the 3 seasons he missed..he was second in MVP voting in each of the 2 years preceding his service and was 1st, 2nd, 2nd, and 1st in the four years following. The only quibble I have with your thoughts is that Ted really missed almost five seasons. He was also in the Marines during 1952 and 1953 but played six games at the start of the 1952 season and thirty seven at the end of 1953. You are 100% correct, and sloppy work on my part...I knew he had more than one stint active, but in my haste this morning assumed the two stints were covered in the 3 years he didn't play at all. And I just finished Wingmen about him and John Glenn, I should have done better. Thanks to his shortened stints in 52 and 53 though Williams actually batted over .400 3 times in his career! Of course 2 of those seasons included a total of only 100 at bats
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Post by timholycross on May 8, 2024 8:29:22 GMT -5
I do remember something to the effect that had they built Candlestick Park slightly away from where it was built (and perhaps pointed a bit differently) the terrible winds would have been diminished considerably.
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Post by hcpride on May 8, 2024 9:08:28 GMT -5
Mays dwarfs Mantle in career WAR 156.2 to 110.2. Mays is an outstanding 5th in career WAR and Ruth is a ridiculous 1st (by a mile) at 183.1. Some of Ruth’s marks are so far above other players…he is like Wilt Chamberlain in that regard.
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Post by mm67 on May 8, 2024 9:13:58 GMT -5
Ted Williams was the greatest hitter I ever saw play ball. But he was not the greatest all around player. Admittedly an indifferent fielder but man could he could hit. For many years the Yankees introduced Joe DiMaggio as the "greatest living player." Was he better than Mantle? Certainly he was a better fielder with a better arm. Better hitter? Lifetime batting average vs Mantle? DiMaggio-Mays is an interesting comparison. Both were 5 tool center fielders. And Joe "D" did not strike out frequently nor did Williams. (Mays did alter his swing at Candlestick to try to adapt to the wind. I read. Once he hit a shot to left that almost reached the stands but was blown back onto the field and caught by an infielder, a not so routine infield pop-up.) Most agree Ruth was the greatest player of all time. But then again his competition was limited by baseball's unwritten color line. Nonetheless, we can only judge by his record which was and still is amazing. Babe's greatness transcends the numbers. They are all gone. No sense endlessly relitigating the past. Round & round... Who are the greatest active players, today? Is baseball alive & well or is it a dying relic of the past? Peace.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on May 8, 2024 9:43:11 GMT -5
I do remember something to the effect that had they built Candlestick Park slightly away from where it was built (and perhaps pointed a bit differently) the terrible winds would have been diminished considerably. Yes and the time of day that ownership visited Candlestick Park and decided to build there was late morning as opposed to evening, when the winds are calm. It still gets chilly in the stands on a summer night but AT&T much better. There's an old tale about a fly ball that a second basement drifted out thinking it was a short OF popup off the bat. The winds took the ball and it landed over the RF wall.
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Post by hc1998 on May 8, 2024 9:44:17 GMT -5
Ted Williams was the greatest hitter I ever saw play ball. But he was not the greatest all around player. Admittedly an indifferent fielder but man could he could hit. For many years the Yankees introduced Joe DiMaggio as the "greatest living player." Was he better than Mantle? Certainly he was a better fielder with a better arm. Better hitter? Lifetime batting average vs Mantle? DiMaggio-Mays is an interesting comparison. Both were 5 tool center fielders. And Joe "D" did not strike out frequently nor did Williams. (Mays did alter his swing at Candlestick to try to adapt to the wind. I read. Once he hit a shot to left that almost reached the stands but was blown back onto the field and caught by an infielder, a not so routine infield pop-up.) Most agree Ruth was the greatest player of all time. But then again his competition was limited by baseball's unwritten color line. Nonetheless, we can only judge by his record which was and still is amazing. Babe's greatness transcends the numbers. They are all gone. No sense endlessly relitigating the past. Round & round... Who are the greatest active players, today? Is baseball alive & well or is it a dying relic of the past? Peace. WAR does account for fielding...imo perhaps too much, so if Williams bested Mays in WAR (per 162 at least) there is an argument he is better all around. As for today, you have to say Ohtani, especially once he is back on the mound. Scarily his teammate Betts may be in the conversation too, moving all over the field and just continuing to put up numbers on the offensive side. Acuna gets some consideration too, as with Trout when he is healthy, but sadly thats not too often anymore.
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Post by longsuffering on May 8, 2024 10:12:38 GMT -5
The only quibble I have with your thoughts is that Ted really missed almost five seasons. He was also in the Marines during 1952 and 1953 but played six games at the start of the 1952 season and thirty seven at the end of 1953. You are 100% correct, and sloppy work on my part...I knew he had more than one stint active, but in my haste this morning assumed the two stints were covered in the 3 years he didn't play at all. And I just finished Wingmen about him and John Glenn, I should have done better. Thanks to his shortened stints in 52 and 53 though Williams actually batted over .400 3 times in his career! Of course 2 of those seasons included a total of only 100 at bats Those two short seasons validate that Ted really gave the prime of his career to Uncle Sam. In the 1960s the Boston Globe had a sportswriter/columnist named Harold Kaese who would make that case with stats on a periodic basis.
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Post by hchoops on May 8, 2024 10:18:46 GMT -5
I do remember something to the effect that had they built Candlestick Park slightly away from where it was built (and perhaps pointed a bit differently) the terrible winds would have been diminished considerably. Yes and the time of day that ownership visited Candlestick Park and decided to build there was late morning as opposed to evening, when the winds are calm. It still gets chilly in the stands on a summer night but AT&T much better. Do you mean Oracle ?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 8, 2024 10:38:31 GMT -5
Barry Bonds is actually ahead of Babe Ruth in offensive WAR but many dismiss him due to his juicing.
The Candlestick wind stories are entertaining, yet the facts show that playing in Candlestick did not cost right-hand hitting players home runs in total. Candlestick opened in 1960. In 1961 the fences were moved in . At the foul lines the fences were moved in from 335 to 330 feet and the left field power alley distance went from 375 feet to a more friendly 365 feet. That helped Willie Mays and other right-handed hitters no doubt. In 1960 he hot 12 HR's at Candlestick and 17 elsewhere but I checked the next four years and he hit 94 at Candlestick and 80 elsewhere. Candlestick Park did not hurt his HR total. and he doesn't need that argument to bolster his bona fides as an all-time great.
It's too bad that Mike Trout continues to experience health problems and miss games in what should be a very productive time in his career as he was on track to be included among the all-time greats. Like Mays and Mantle he is a great hitter for both power and average and like Mantle he has a great on base average and seldom hits into double plays.
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Post by hchoops on May 8, 2024 11:21:06 GMT -5
In what Park did Willie and the Giants play in 1958 and 1959 ?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 8, 2024 12:06:48 GMT -5
Seals Stadium
This is where the famous San Francisco Seals of PCL had played. Our Jigger Statz played for the Los Angeles team for many years and no doubt played many games at Seals Stadium and against a teenaged Joe DiMaggio for a few years.
One other SF venue that you will remember is Kezar Stadium where the 49ers played and where the Oakland Raiders played their first season. It is still there while Seals is long gone
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Post by nycrusader2010 on May 8, 2024 13:34:00 GMT -5
Yes and the time of day that ownership visited Candlestick Park and decided to build there was late morning as opposed to evening, when the winds are calm. It still gets chilly in the stands on a summer night but AT&T much better. Do you mean Oracle ? Whatever Pac Bell is called now. I still call the Astros stadium Enron Field.
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Post by hchoops on May 8, 2024 13:39:22 GMT -5
I call it the Astrodome
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Post by 78purple on May 8, 2024 16:22:15 GMT -5
Seals Stadium This is where the famous San Francisco Seals of PCL had played. Our Jigger Statz played for the Los Angeles team for many years and no doubt played many games at Seals Stadium and against a teenaged Joe DiMaggio for a few years. One other SF venue that you will remember is Kezar Stadium where the 49ers played and where the Oakland Raiders played their first season. It is still there while Seals is long gone Great trivia !!
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Post by 78purple on May 8, 2024 16:33:14 GMT -5
You are correct sir, but no HR leader in MLB was ever sentenced to playing 81 games at the " Stick " from '58 til '72....at minimum he lost 5 HRs/year playing there........ I don't see how you came up with that 5 HR/year estimate. At Candlestick Park Willie hit a home run every 15.0 at bats At other parks Willie hit a home run every 17.2 at bats It does not appear to me that Candlestick hurt him greatly when it came to hitting home runs. I do think his season at Seals Stadium may have cost him a few home runs as that one season (a small sample) he hit a homer every 17.9 at bats. Willie McCovey's numbers parallel Willie Mays's At Candlestick Park Willie McCovey hit a home run every 14.3 at bats At other parks he hit a home run every 16.9 at bats It does not appear to me that Candlestick hurt Willie McCovey greatly when it came to hitting home runs. I'll stop now as it looks like I am spoiling the birthday celebration for a truly great ballplayer and I know few will be convinced by the analysis Happy Birthday to the Say Hey Kid!! The point I was trying to make was not home vs road HRs, or what Alou, Cepeda, or Jim Ray Hart did at The Stick from the right handed batting box.......the point I was trying to make was what would his HR number have been if he played in a different home park, for example, Shibe Park ( Connie Mack ) or Atlanta Fulton County
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Post by timholycross on May 8, 2024 17:40:12 GMT -5
Seals Stadium This is where the famous San Francisco Seals of PCL had played. Our Jigger Statz played for the Los Angeles team for many years and no doubt played many games at Seals Stadium and against a teenaged Joe DiMaggio for a few years. One other SF venue that you will remember is Kezar Stadium where the 49ers played and where the Oakland Raiders played their first season. It is still there while Seals is long gone Kezar isn't what it was, sort of like Braves Field/Nickerson en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kezar_Stadium. Saw a bit of a high school game there in the early 80s, kind of stumbled onto the venue and as I like to see stadia from the past, paid a couple bucks to walk around the place. They filmed a great scene from Dirty Harry there!
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 8, 2024 18:49:01 GMT -5
I don't see how you came up with that 5 HR/year estimate. At Candlestick Park Willie hit a home run every 15.0 at bats At other parks Willie hit a home run every 17.2 at bats It does not appear to me that Candlestick hurt him greatly when it came to hitting home runs. I do think his season at Seals Stadium may have cost him a few home runs as that one season (a small sample) he hit a homer every 17.9 at bats. Willie McCovey's numbers parallel Willie Mays's At Candlestick Park Willie McCovey hit a home run every 14.3 at bats At other parks he hit a home run every 16.9 at bats It does not appear to me that Candlestick hurt Willie McCovey greatly when it came to hitting home runs. I'll stop now as it looks like I am spoiling the birthday celebration for a truly great ballplayer and I know few will be convinced by the analysis Happy Birthday to the Say Hey Kid!! The point I was trying to make was not home vs road HRs, or what Alou, Cepeda, or Jim Ray Hart did at The Stick from the right handed batting box.......the point I was trying to make was what would his HR number have been if he played in a different home park, for example, Shibe Park or Atlanta Fulton County I think the essence of this is as follows-and some no doubt will disagree, but I base my conclusion on facts only: Willie Mays was not hurt in any way because he played in Candlestick Park, at least an average park for right-handed hitters. It;'s an entirely different argument , perhaps the one you are making, that if Willie played in a tremendous hitters park he, like every other player in the league, would have put up even more impressive numbers. For example. Willie hit 28 home runs in just 220 at bats at Ebbets Field. If he had been a Dodger, and if the Dodgers had not been moved to LA by the criminal Walter O'Malley (thanks, hchoops, for the correction) , Willie might have hit 600 homers there and 300 on the road for 900 total. Wrigley Field, home of the Cubs, tells the same story for every player. Willie hit 54 homers in 691 at bats there and he batted .342 there. Perhaps some is due to facing weak Cubs pitchers, but if you check Wrigley vs non-Wrigley stats for Cubs greats like Ernie Banks, Ryne Sandberg, or Ron Santo you'll see an astounding difference in batting numbers between home and away.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on May 8, 2024 19:14:03 GMT -5
Has anyone on Crossports been to a Boston Braves home game?
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