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Post by 78purple on May 6, 2024 19:13:08 GMT -5
Happy 93rd Birthday to the " Say Hey Kid ", Willie Mays.....for my money, the most complete player of all time.....He basically invented the term " 5 tool player "....God only knows how many home runs he would have hit if he wasn't condemned to play in Candlestick Park, with those foggy 50 degree nights......in JULY !!!!!
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Post by hchoops on May 6, 2024 19:28:35 GMT -5
I was at one of those cold, windy games at Candlestick in August, 1969.
It was a typical “summer” Candlestick evening, just brutal to play baseball.
I also saw Willie in the Polo Grounds for the NY Giants vs the Brooklyn Dodgers in the mid 50s.
Willie was the best baseball player I ever saw.
There is a wonderful statue of Willie outside of Oracle. Unlike many sculptures of people, this one has a very close resemblance to the person’s face.
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Post by 78purple on May 6, 2024 19:51:41 GMT -5
I was at one of those cold, windy games at Candlestick in August, 1969. It was a typical “summer” Candlestick evening, just brutal to play baseball. Willie was the best baseball player I ever saw, going back to the mid 50s. Aaron and Clemente are in the conversation, but he's #1.................sign of the times.....in 1966, at the height of his powers, he held out because the Giants wouldn't give him a $ 100,000/year contract |
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Post by nycrusader2010 on May 6, 2024 20:00:17 GMT -5
There are T shirts that say "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco".
Bay Area is a fascinating micro climate. Average winter overnight lows are around the mid 40's (high 40s /low 50s in summer) but the lowest temperature EVER recorded dating back to 1875 is 27 degrees. It's also amazing to think that a city that routinely requires you to wear a sweater in summertime also only sees snow flurries a handful of times in a century.
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Post by 78purple on May 6, 2024 20:21:00 GMT -5
There are T shirts that say "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco". Bay Area is a fascinating micro climate. Average winter overnight lows are around the mid 40's (high 40s /low 50s in summer) but the lowest temperature EVER recorded dating back to 1875 is 27 degrees. It's also amazing to think that a city that routinely requires you to wear a sweater in summertime also only sees snow flurries a handful of times in a century. And to follow up on that thought, its remarkable to see the difference in " weather " between " The Stick " and their current home, Oracle....nowhere near as bad |
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Post by hchoops on May 6, 2024 20:37:55 GMT -5
Both Parks are on the Bay.
Candlestick was wide open to the strong wind off the Bay.
The Oracle architects were told to close off any possible wind from the Bay. They succeeded.
imo it is one of, if not the most, scenic MLB parks.
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Post by mm67 on May 6, 2024 20:46:03 GMT -5
93, today. Mays' birthday is always a special day for me. Happy Birthday Willie.
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Post by 78purple on May 6, 2024 20:49:47 GMT -5
Both Parks are on the Bay. Candlestick was wide open to the strong wind off the Bay. The Oracle architects were told to close off any possible wind from the Bay. They succeeded. imo it is one of, if not the most, scenic MLB parks. Thank you, sir for the elegant description !!! |
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Post by 78purple on May 6, 2024 21:01:00 GMT -5
93, today. Mays' birthday is always a special day for me. Happy Birthday Willie. He may have finished with 800 home runs if played the final 10 years of his career @ Oracle |
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 6, 2024 21:14:41 GMT -5
Happy Birthday to a truly great player, one of the best of all time and second only to Mickey Mantle among post war players.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 6, 2024 21:17:01 GMT -5
93, today. Mays' birthday is always a special day for me. Happy Birthday Willie. He may have finished with 800 home runs if played the final 10 years of his career @ Oracle Would you be surprised to learn that he hit more home runs at home than he did in road games? |
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Post by 78purple on May 6, 2024 21:23:22 GMT -5
He may have finished with 800 home runs if played the final 10 years of his career @ Oracle Would you be surprised to learn that he hit more home runs at home than he did in road games? You are correct sir, but no HR leader in MLB was ever sentenced to playing 81 games at the " Stick " from '58 til '72....at minimum he lost 5 HRs/year playing there........ |
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Post by hchoops on May 6, 2024 21:25:40 GMT -5
Happy Birthday to a truly great player, one of the best of all time and second only to Mickey Mantle among post war players. I beg to differ. Willie was a better all-around player. Many Mantle fans use the what ifs. Willie was better. Here come Ky’s stats. |
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Post by Xmassader on May 6, 2024 21:30:23 GMT -5
There are T shirts that say "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco". Bay Area is a fascinating micro climate. Average winter overnight lows are around the mid 40's (high 40s /low 50s in summer) but the lowest temperature EVER recorded dating back to 1875 is 27 degrees. It's also amazing to think that a city that routinely requires you to wear a sweater in summertime also only sees snow flurries a handful of times in a century. The t-shirts are quoting Mark Twain a/k/a Samuel Langhorne Clemens. |
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Post by 78purple on May 6, 2024 21:47:43 GMT -5
Not close.....If Mickey didn't show up to the ball park drunk on multiple occasions and didn't blow out his knee on an outfield drain, then maybe we're having a different discussion, but Willie maximized his potential, and Mickey forfeited his. He should have hit 900 HRs playing At Yankee Stadium with the RF fence @ 297 ft !! And, Mickey had an incredible team around him ( not after ' 64 )....Willie, not so much |
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 6, 2024 21:58:17 GMT -5
Would you be surprised to learn that he hit more home runs at home than he did in road games? You are correct sir, but no HR leader in MLB was ever sentenced to playing 81 games at the " Stick " from '58 til '72....at minimum he lost 5 HRs/year playing there........ I don't see how you came up with that 5 HR/year estimate. At Candlestick Park Willie hit a home run every 15.0 at bats At other parks Willie hit a home run every 17.2 at bats It does not appear to me that Candlestick hurt him greatly when it came to hitting home runs. I do think his season at Seals Stadium may have cost him a few home runs as that one season (a small sample) he hit a homer every 17.9 at bats. Willie McCovey's numbers parallel Willie Mays's At Candlestick Park Willie McCovey hit a home run every 14.3 at bats At other parks he hit a home run every 16.9 at bats It does not appear to me that Candlestick hurt Willie McCovey greatly when it came to hitting home runs. I'll stop now as it looks like I am spoiling the birthday celebration for a truly great ballplayer and I know few will be convinced by the analysis Happy Birthday to the Say Hey Kid!! |
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Post by 78purple on May 6, 2024 22:26:11 GMT -5
You are correct sir, but no HR leader in MLB was ever sentenced to playing 81 games at the " Stick " from '58 til '72....at minimum he lost 5 HRs/year playing there........ I don't see how you came up with that 5 HR/year estimate. At Candlestick Park Willie hit a home run every 15.0 at bats At other parks Willie hit a home run every 17.2 at bats It does not appear to me that Candlestick hurt him greatly when it came to hitting home runs. I do think his season at Seals Stadium may have cost him a few home runs as that one season (a small sample) he hit a homer every 17.9 at bats. Willie McCovey's numbers parallel Willie Mays's At Candlestick Park Willie McCovey hit a home run every 14.3 at bats At other parks he hit a home run every 16.9 at bats It does not appear to me that Candlestick hurt Willie McCovey greatly when it came to hitting home runs. I'll stop now as it looks like I am spoiling the birthday celebration for a truly great ballplayer and I know few will be convinced by the analysis Happy Birthday to the Say Hey Kid!! |
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Post by mm67 on May 6, 2024 22:33:21 GMT -5
We already settled this Mantle stuff on this board a few years back. At that time it was conclusively & respectfully proven statistically Mays was by far the better player. And, Mays' greatness was also in the intangibles. Of course Yankees fans have their guy as is understandable. But the consensus is Mays was far better, He is commonly ranked in the top 1-3 by baseball analysts. Whereas Mickey quite commonly is ranked in 9-10+. The "argument" is long settled.
Mantle was a wonderful, great player. He had among the most beautiful swings I have ever seen, raw power & speed. Great. But he was nowhere near Mays. Mays if this or Mantle if that is not relevant. You are what your record says you are. Would've, could've, should've are among the most oft repeated cop outs. No need for that with these guys. Both men can figuratively stand proud on the body of their work. And, today there are some truly great players, Juan Soto for instance. Time to move on. Peace.
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Post by 78purple on May 6, 2024 22:34:30 GMT -5
I don't see how you came up with that 5 HR/year estimate. At Candlestick Park Willie hit a home run every 15.0 at bats At other parks Willie hit a home run every 17.2 at bats It does not appear to me that Candlestick hurt him greatly when it came to hitting home runs. I do think his season at Seals Stadium may have cost him a few home runs as that one season (a small sample) he hit a homer every 17.9 at bats. Willie McCovey's numbers parallel Willie Mays's At Candlestick Park Willie McCovey hit a home run every 14.3 at bats At other parks he hit a home run every 16.9 at bats It does not appear to me that Candlestick hurt Willie McCovey greatly when it came to hitting home runs. I'll stop now as it looks like I am spoiling the birthday celebration for a truly great ballplayer and I know few will be convinced by the analysis Happy Birthday to the Say Hey Kid!! We don't know what we don't know......The relative home vs. road HR stats are relatively irrelevant if the home ball park was different...If McCovey and Mays both hit from the same side of the plate, then we can have a discussion......But, McCovey hitting from the left side and Mays hitting from the right, it's not comparable....the prevailing wind at the "Stick " aided McCovey, while it knocked down multiple Mays drives to Left Field.......we'll have to agree to disagree |
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Post by alum on May 7, 2024 7:52:04 GMT -5
Here is a comparison using that tool on Baseball Reference. stathead.com/baseball/vs/mickey-mantle-vs-willie-maysBefore looking, I would have guessed Mays would be the winner, but now, even considering defense, I think its Mantle. His OPS is .977 and OPS + is 172 compared to Willie's .940 and 155. Looking at the various award categories, Mickey was a three time MVP, and a three time MVP runnerup. He finished in the top 6 of the MVP voting 9 times. He only won one Gold Glove. Willie had 12 top 6 finishes in the MVP with two wins (11 years apart) and one second and had 11 Gold Gloves. (The Gold Glove has only existed since 1957, so mid career for both.) Obviously, both were amazing talents. Mantle was certainly not a great guy and, well, he was a Yankee, but I guess he is the better player. Neither as good as Ruth who was the greatest player in the history of the game. EDIT: James Hirsch's book on Mays and Jane Leavy's book on Mantle are both well done and probably available in your local library. |
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Post by WorcesterGray on May 7, 2024 8:14:41 GMT -5
Defensive Wins Above Replacement: Mays, 18.2 Mantle, -9.6
I'll take Mays every day, and twice on Sunday (for the double-header).
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Post by mm67 on May 7, 2024 8:14:47 GMT -5
The comparison above is quite limited. A while back I had presented a more exhaustive statistical breakdown which clearly favored Mays in hitting & fielding. Also Mays was far superior in the intangibles of fielding (not merely catching the ball) and running the bases. We're not merely talking speed, we're talking about controlling the flow of a game on the base paths.
Won't dive back into the stats.
Suffice it to say there is not one major rating agency which has Mantle the equal of Mays. Willie is ranked in the top 3. Mantle is not. Look it up.
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Post by rgs318 on May 7, 2024 8:51:31 GMT -5
At a level where anyone considered is already known to be outstanding and a winner, comparisons, while fun, have virtually no real meaning...except to increase the number of "losers."
One advantage to being an "old guy" is that I saw each of these players many times in person. They were each unique and outstanding.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 7, 2024 9:50:58 GMT -5
The comparison above is quite limited. A while back I had presented a more exhaustive statistical breakdown which clearly favored Mays in hitting & fielding. Also Mays was far superior in the intangibles of fielding (not merely catching the ball) and running the bases. We're not merely talking speed, we're talking about controlling the flow of a game on the base paths. Won't dive back into the stats. Suffice it to say there is not one major rating agency which has Mantle the equal of Mays. Willie is ranked in the top 3. Mantle is not. Look it up. I wish you had presented it on this forum because we have not seen any presentation here proving that Mays was a better hitter than Mantle. |
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Post by hc1998 on May 7, 2024 10:24:44 GMT -5
Mays dwarfs Mantle in career WAR 156.2 to 110.2. While Mays' career lasted longer so he could accumulate more WAR, his WAR/162 is a full win better than Mantle's over their career (8.4 to 7.4). The split is even more telling if you compute it through just the age 36 season when Mantle retired, then Mays' career WAR is 133.5, and per 162 is 9.35. Always a question what Willie may have done in the year he missed for military service...a bit hard to forecast, was young before that and had not accomplished much, but his first year back (after a year layoff) was one of his finest seasons and accounted for a 10.5 WAR. I didn't have the honor of watching either, but from what I've read and seen, I think I'd take Willie first...if I couldn't, Mickey would be a fine consolation prize.
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