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Post by nycrusader2010 on May 31, 2024 9:03:58 GMT -5
And when did state schools become " free rides?" I must have missed that in the news. Half of undergraduate Cornell is a public university funded by the state of New York. The public/private dichotomy at Cornell may parallel his contrasting the PL with public universities. His tweets strike me as full of glib aphorisms from someone who would really like to spend all his time giving TED Talks. Remember Cornell is an Ivy League school that abides by an Academic Index. I'm sure he was a deserving, high achieving student to get admitted to Cornell, athlete or no. I believe the SUNY portion of Cornell consists of the Agricultural School & the Labor Relations school -- maybe it's slightly easier to get in, if you're in state, but these are very programs that lead into very specific fields. The school that most associate with being "easy" is the hotel school which is part of the private university. Cornell is also well known as being "the easiest Ivy to get into, but the hardest to graduate from". |
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Post by nycrusader2010 on May 31, 2024 9:11:08 GMT -5
Yeah but he is equating a PL kid with $200K in loans (hyperbole to be sure) with a state "free ride." A kid going to a state school still has to pay unless they are getting an athletic scholarship and the same kid going to a PL school on schollie isn't incurring a $200K or anything like that loan. As we all here know, he's comparing apples and oranges. But, then again, he's a IL grad, right?  And most of the Patriot League is much closer to the Ivy reputation wise than it is to middle-of-the-road non-flagship state universities or middle-to-lower tier private colleges and universities. I'm not going to name specific schools, because I don't want to disrespect ANYONE's education. |
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 31, 2024 9:30:09 GMT -5
He said his ACT score was 23, and he was admitted to Cornell because he was good at track. And I suspect he was admitted to one of the land grant (public) schools at Cornell. Half of undergraduate Cornell is a public university funded by the state of New York. The public/private dichotomy at Cornell may parallel his contrasting the PL with public universities. His tweets strike me as full of glib aphorisms from someone who would really like to spend all his time giving TED Talks. Remember Cornell is an Ivy League school that abides by an Academic Index. I'm sure he was a deserving, high achieving student to get admitted to Cornell, athlete or no. I believe the SUNY portion of Cornell consists of the Agricultural School & the Labor Relations school -- maybe it's slightly easier to get in, if you're in state, but these are very programs that lead into very specific fields. The school that most associate with being "easy" is the hotel school which is part of the private university. Cornell is also well known as being "the easiest Ivy to get into, but the hardest to graduate from". An ACT score of 23 and a reasonable GPA would give you an AI score above the AI floor for the Ivies back when he matriculated. The IL increased the floor after he matriculated, From the NY Times in 2011: There is a business school, maybe two, on the land grant side. The schools that are non-public are the College of Arts and Sciences, the engineering school, and the school of architecture and design. The PL floor has remained at 168. IIRC, he still holds the Cornell records for the decathlon and pentathlon. ADVERTISEMENT |
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Post by hc1998 on May 31, 2024 9:34:54 GMT -5
According to college factual.com - "Over 30 Years, a Degree at College of the Holy Cross is Worth $1,635,000. Setting aside the time value of money, after 30 years, an undergraduate degree from College of the Holy Cross is worth about $1,635,000 more than what it would cost you." If we are looking at college strictly as a financial investment...this return isn't that impressive. Assuming tuition to be 70K per year...investing that 70K each of the 4 years and assuming a 6% return...then continuing the 6% return over the next 30 years, you'd be sitting on nearly $1,760,000, and that doesn't even account for the 4 years of salary and additional (401k, etc.) investments the student could earn instead of attending college, or, if getting a public sector job, the entry into the retirement system that much earlier. I recognize there are many intangible benefits to college too and how the experience could help your growth intellectually, academically, socially, etc. But putting simple dollar and cents to it I don't think saying the degree is worth $1.6 mil is that impressive of a conclusion. |
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 31, 2024 9:49:12 GMT -5
According to college factual.com - "Over 30 Years, a Degree at College of the Holy Cross is Worth $1,635,000. Setting aside the time value of money, after 30 years, an undergraduate degree from College of the Holy Cross is worth about $1,635,000 more than what it would cost you." I looked at College Factual. "Although some majors pay more than others, students who graduate from Holy Cross with a bachelor's degree go on to jobs where they make an average salary of $84,653 in their early years. This is good news for future Holy Cross graduates since it is 99% more than the average college graduate's salary of $42,485 per year." www.collegefactual.com/colleges/college-of-the-holy-cross/#:~:text=Holy%20Cross%20landed%20the%20%23159,all%20schools%20in%20the%20nation. An average of $85,000 does not compute into $1,635,000 more than..., even after subtracting $300,000 for the cost of attendance. |
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Post by rgs318 on May 31, 2024 10:19:18 GMT -5
There will be raises, of course. Don't mistake the average first year salary for the average income after 10, 20 or 30 years or the difference over a career.
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Post by mm67 on May 31, 2024 11:49:23 GMT -5
PL undergrad colleges are very fine institutions. I think measuring their value by the average income of their graduates misses the boat. Money isn't everything. The school which graduates a higher % of grads who pursue nurturing careers (not just MDs who are true heroes in my experience), men& women for others (nurses, teachers, social workers, etc.) or writers, poets. artists, dancers gets penalized . Can we say which is truly the better school by money alone?
I get it : For some money is the end all & be all to success in life. "They say the best things in life are free but you can give it to the birds & bees, I want money, that's what I want. I want money. Money." Good for them. Money is the measure of the man. But, is it? To others money has been merely an empty promise of happiness & fulfillment. How about a contributor to society or social mobility or life fulfillment/happiness index to evaluate schools.?Time to get off my soap box. Not making sense.
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Post by CHC8485 on May 31, 2024 13:56:38 GMT -5
mm67
1. It's easy to measure money. Measuring value to society is highly subjective and difficult to quantify - especially across occupations. So earnings in $ is the scoreboard.
2. College is expensive (I know, not exactly breaking news).
When I was at HC and I think tuition room & board (sticker price) cost roughly 20% of our family income, if I am remembering my my dad's middle manager salary from my financial aid forms correctly.
When my kids entered HC about 25 years later, sticker price was roughly 40% of our family annual income.
It was worth every cent my family paid for me to attend HC and I feel my kids' education was worth every cent we paid (which was not sticker price). But I tend to look at a college education in a similar light as you as it is so much more than the job you get when you graduate or are even what you are earning 10 - 15 years later. It is about learning to think critically, understand yourself and others so you are equipped to handle the ups and downs of life, adjust on the fly, and adapt as new realities rise that we could never imagine. (Think about how the Class of 1940 had to adapt 18 months after graduation - or 5 years after graduation when the nuclear age was ushered in!) I think few colleges in the country prepare you to think and adapt as effectively as Holy Cross.
But that is a rare outlook these days. For many (most?) C=college is seen as vocational training ... "what are you going to do with your degree?" When you are getting something that is valued at half your family annual income for 4 years, and say wind up paying say 20% of your family income for it, college does come down to an ROI calculation. It is the reality of higher education today.
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Post by mm67 on May 31, 2024 14:01:57 GMT -5
mm67 1. It's easy to measure money. Measuring value to society is highly subjective and difficult to quantify - especially across occupations. So earnings in $ is the scoreboard. 2. College is expensive (I know, not exactly breaking news). When I was at HC and I think tuition room & board (sticker price) cost roughly 20% of our family income, if I am remembering my my dad's middle manager salary from my financial aid forms correctly. When my kids entered HC about 25 years later, sticker price was roughly 40% of our family annual income. It was worth every cent my family paid for me to attend HC and I feel my kids' education was worth every cent we paid (which was not sticker price). But I tend to look at a college education in a similar light as you as it is so much more than the job you get when you graduate or are even what you are earning 10 - 15 years later. It is about learning to think critically, understand yourself and others so you are equipped to handle the ups and downs of life, adjust on the fly, and adapt as new realities rise that we could never imagine. (Think about how the Class of 1940 had to adapt 18 months after graduation - or 5 years after graduation when the nuclear age was ushered in!) I think few colleges in the country prepare you to think and adapt as effectively as Holy Cross. But that is a rare outlook these days. For many (most?) C=college is seen as vocational training ... "what are you going to do with your degree?" When you are getting something that is valued at half your family annual income for 4 years, and say wind up paying say 20% of your family income for it, college does come down to an ROI calculation. It is the reality of higher education today. Thank you. You said what I meant far better than I did. |
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 31, 2024 14:06:41 GMT -5
Wonderful post CHC8485!!!
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Post by xhaav on Jun 1, 2024 7:31:33 GMT -5
I used to jest/provoke a Cornell alum old friend by asking him, “Wait, Cornell is Ivy, right? I always forget.” 😂
Agree thoroughly with Matunuck’s (sp?) post.
Also, there are plenty of HC grads who go on to enormously financially lucrative careers, those who choose highly successful paths not necessarily measured by salary, and those in between. With the right focus and drive, your future is up to, regardless of what college you attended.
The value of an HC education *should* be measured by more than dollars and cents. But there is should, and there is reality. Which is why yes rankings, the endowment and financial are important.
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Post by Tom on Jun 1, 2024 8:37:46 GMT -5
It was worth every cent my family paid for me to attend HC and I feel my kids' education was worth every cent we paid (which was not sticker price). But I tend to look at a college education in a similar light as you as it is so much more than the job you get when you graduate or are even what you are earning 10 - 15 years later. It is about learning to think critically, understand yourself and others so you are equipped to handle the ups and downs of life, adjust on the fly, and adapt as new realities rise that we could never imagine. (Think about how the Class of 1940 had to adapt 18 months after graduation - or 5 years after graduation when the nuclear age was ushered in!) I think few colleges in the country prepare you to think and adapt as effectively as Holy Cross. But that is a rare outlook these days. For many (most?) C=college is seen as vocational training ... "what are you going to do with your degree?" When you are getting something that is valued at half your family annual income for 4 years, and say wind up paying say 20% of your family income for it, college does come down to an ROI calculation. It is the reality of higher education today. Someone once said that HC's job is to educate you. It is the work places' job to train you |
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 1, 2024 9:16:05 GMT -5
A liberal arts education (think: Holy Cross) is indeed to "educate" the student including critical thinking and an openness to new/different ideas. Having those attributes helps Crusader alums to succeed in many and varied fields and especially leadership roles. It does not pigeonhole its graduates to just medical/legal/education/religious/business but provides the graduate with a flexibility to do almost anything. Certainly one of my big takeaways was the realization how rare black & white and right/wrong situations exist with the world primarily shades of gray. A respect for differing opinions. To try to comprehend where the "other" was/is coming from. Admittedly, not always successful but the effort is usually there.
It may be a bit old fashioned but Holy Cross has never been and still remains an educational institution that does not focus on graduates' incomes (though its leaders wouldn't mind well-heeled alums who would make multi-digit check donations) but prides itself in the success of its alums in all walks of life.
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Post by mm67 on Jun 1, 2024 14:04:50 GMT -5
A liberal arts education (think: Holy Cross) is indeed to "educate" the student including critical thinking and an openness to new/different ideas. Having those attributes helps Crusader alums to succeed in many and varied fields and especially leadership roles. It does not pigeonhole its graduates to just medical/legal/education/religious/business but provides the graduate with a flexibility to do almost anything. Certainly one of my big takeaways was the realization how rare black & white and right/wrong situations exist with the world primarily shades of gray. A respect for differing opinions. To try to comprehend where the "other" was/is coming from. Admittedly, not always successful but the effort is usually there. It may be a bit old fashioned but Holy Cross has never been and still remains an educational institution that does not focus on graduates' incomes (though its leaders wouldn't mind well-heeled alums who would make multi-digit check donations) but prides itself in the success of its alums in all walks of life. Bingo! |
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Post by jkh67 on Jun 6, 2024 16:46:37 GMT -5
Cornell grad www.nickhuber.com/about#:~:text=Hi%2C%20I'm%20Nick%20Huber,my%20first%20company%2C%20Storage%20Squad. From what I have seen, other Ivy grads mock people who went to Cornell. I guess he got tired of that and looked around for somebody else to trash.  I think it's fair to say that grads of the other Ivies generally regard Cornell as the weak sister of the group. (Of course, HYP grads generally regard the five other Ivies as weak sisters, so there!) |
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 6, 2024 17:29:34 GMT -5
Always thought that Brown was the weak sister of IL but perhaps that because of the too close proximity. (No offense, Vince, our favorite Brown alum!) And any school that would have Gordon Gee as it's president (and then get stiffed by him) can't be too good. THE Ohio State University to Brown?!! Someone didn't do their due diligence! As for Cornell, that's where Michael McFarland, S.J. got his undergrad degree. Of course, since he was able to get his degree in 3 years, that might lead some to conclude, "how good could it be, if he could graduate in 3 years?" That said, one of my best HC buddy Classmates was a high school classmate of his and told me often that "Mike was a certifiable genius." Let me say while I adjust my purple glasses that I'd take Holy Cross over either of them. |
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