|
Post by rf1 on Aug 21, 2018 10:26:58 GMT -5
Expect another side effect for the Blackstone River National Heritage Corridor from the team move. I fully suspect that there will be far less cooperation going forward between the southern RI portion and northern MA end with Worcester's poaching. RI officials are not going to want to help the Worcester area given the damage it inflicted on its communities.
|
|
|
Post by HC92 on Aug 21, 2018 10:43:50 GMT -5
Ok, yet Youth baseball seems to be growing at a faster rate than other sports Sadly, that has not been the experience in my town. Numbers are declining for baseball. Could be limited to my town but I doubt it. The baseball people blame lax but the lax people say their numbers are down as well.
|
|
|
Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Aug 21, 2018 10:52:06 GMT -5
Ok, yet Youth baseball seems to be growing at a faster rate than other sportsNo it isn't. Just the opposite in fact.
|
|
|
Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Aug 21, 2018 10:53:15 GMT -5
Expect another side effect for the Blackstone River National Heritage Corridor from the team move. I fully suspect that there will be far less cooperation going forward between the southern RI portion and northern MA end with Worcester's poaching. RI officials are not going to want to help the Worcester area given the damage it inflicted on its communities. So Rhode Island will hurt their own economy to get back at Worcester? When Worcester couldn’t get a team because of Pawtucket exercising their territorial rights would you have been all for Worcester “retaliating” against Rhode Island? Give me a break.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Aug 21, 2018 10:54:03 GMT -5
Phreek have you ever been to a PawSox game? The crowd is 90% families or youth groups looking for a great night of high-quality baseball at a reasonable price. Stop using any major league stats, polls or quotes. Some days McCoy is barely half full but on weekends the park is usually banged out and a lot of fun. No reason why this won't continue or be better in Worcester. The big thing is how the ownership prices the experience. There is a line that if the WooSox cross it will affect attendance. Have to make it that it's substantially cheaper than Fenway.
The current Pawsox fanbase of mostly young families and retirees will not make up the same numbers going forward. A new stadium, regardless of whether it was in RI or Worcester, changes that. Going to games no longer will be the same cheap night out for entertainment. McCoy offered low ticket prices and free parking with most buying their meals inside the park at its concessions. A new stadium will mean higher ticket prices and more than likely paying to park. All the new development will be predicated on game attendees spending their money on the businesses surrounding the park. This ownership group wants a more upscale corporate crowd that will generate more revenues for it (boxes/preferred seating/club). Younger (21-35) childless demographics with disposable income will also have to be targeted as these are the types that would typically support nearby bars and restaurants. The family oriented dynamics of McCoy will be long gone. A new fan base on many different levels (where they come from/demographics) will need to be cultivated.
Doesn't strike me as the best business model. Maybe the Rochester Red Wings who are 3 hours (and a pass through customs) from the nearest MLB park might cater to the upscale corporate types. Not Worcester or Pawtucket. Corporate types don't mind spending the money for Fenway and it's a reasonable drive after work for a night game. It's still the families that will be looking for a cheap alternative to Fenway or the Boston Garden
|
|
|
Post by bfoley82 on Aug 21, 2018 11:01:26 GMT -5
Proving what exactly ? cmon, PP. you can come up with a more convincing argument than that. Is the writer supposed to interview 10 year olds ? I didn't count the white-haired gentleman in the photo, who did not appear to be walking at a brisk pace. I don't doubt that Worcester can probably match Pawtucket's recent attendance averages, but if the city is basing its ability to pay off the stadium financing on an average attendance of 7,000 or 9,000, then I would be concerned if I were a Worcester homeowner. The Mets and Phillies played a regular season game this past weekend in Williamsport. I think the stadium held 2,500. If The WooSox will be happy with 5,000 average attendance at Polar Field, one could probably improve Fitton Field for a similar capacity for a quarter of the price of Polar Field. This was a one time game per year that is played at a New York Penn ballpark for the LLWS participants.
|
|
|
Post by rf1 on Aug 21, 2018 12:44:11 GMT -5
Expect another side effect for the Blackstone River National Heritage Corridor from the team move. I fully suspect that there will be far less cooperation going forward between the southern RI portion and northern MA end with Worcester's poaching. RI officials are not going to want to help the Worcester area given the damage it inflicted on its communities. So Rhode Island will hurt their own economy to get back at Worcester? When Worcester couldn’t get a team because of Pawtucket exercising their territorial rights would you have been all for Worcester “retaliating” against Rhode Island? Give me a break.
Worcester hurt RI's economy showing it cared for itself only with no concern for elsewhere in the valley. Pawtucket never stole a team from Worcester. A turf war has been initiated by Worcester and its actions will be reciprocated in kind. If anyone thought that RI valley officials would support uncovering a portion of the canal in the district as a part of the stadium project, you can forget about it.
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Aug 21, 2018 12:50:52 GMT -5
Isn't healthy competition what makes for a better end product or service? Cities compete with each other all the time for corporation relocations, convention business, etc.
|
|
|
Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Aug 21, 2018 13:04:20 GMT -5
So Rhode Island will hurt their own economy to get back at Worcester? When Worcester couldn’t get a team because of Pawtucket exercising their territorial rights would you have been all for Worcester “retaliating” against Rhode Island? Give me a break.
Worcester hurt RI's economy showing it cared for itself only with no concern for elsewhere in the valley. Pawtucket never stole a team from Worcester. A turf war has been initiated by Worcester and its actions will be reciprocated in kind. If anyone thought that RI valley officials would support uncovering a portion of the canal in the district as a part of the stadium project, you can forget about it.
I see, Rhode Island should look out for its own interests but Worcester put its concerns with towns outside the city in the Blackstone Valley ahead of its own. Got it.
|
|
|
Post by WorcesterGray on Aug 21, 2018 13:13:18 GMT -5
Phreek have you ever been to a PawSox game? The crowd is 90% families or youth groups looking for a great night of high-quality baseball at a reasonable price. Stop using any major league stats, polls or quotes. Some days McCoy is barely half full but on weekends the park is usually banged out and a lot of fun. No reason why this won't continue or be better in Worcester. The big thing is how the ownership prices the experience. There is a line that if the WooSox cross it will affect attendance. Have to make it that it's substantially cheaper than Fenway. And this why MiLB has been growing in popularity, even over the course of the last twenty years, a fact which Phreek has studiously avoided noting. In 1999, the affiliated minor leagues drew about 200,000 fans per team; in 2009, they drew 237,000 per team (see p. 42 of first link below). In 2017, they drew 238,000 per team (p. 173, second link)
MiLB continues to be popular with its target audiences - working people, families, and, yes, older fans of the sport - because it provides an entertaining experience at an affordable price. A family of four might expect to spend about $75 (in 2018 dollars) on an outing to Polar Park, a tad less taxing on the wallet than the estimated $350 it would cost at Fenway (where, notwithstanding, they have sold out the vast majority of games for the last 15+ years).
The experience of Charlotte is instructive, too, about what can happen when you give people a great place to go to see the game. In 2013, the Knights drew 4,000 a game - since BB&T opened, they've drawn 9,000+. Given the demonstrated design chops of the folks who will be bringing Polar Park to life, we can expect a venue that may well be one of the crown jewels, not just in the IL, but in all of minor league baseball.
Creating easy access will be a challenge, and there are serious financing questions that need to be answered. But people will come - they most definitely will come.
|
|
|
Post by gks on Aug 21, 2018 13:57:56 GMT -5
Pawtucket lost the team because the state of Rhode Island is a mess. Plain and simple. The fact that it took so long for this decision to be announced showed the PawSox wanted to stay in RI. Worcester and the state of Massachusetts presented a better deal but the PawSox gave RI every opportunity to step up to the plate and they didn't.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Aug 21, 2018 14:06:50 GMT -5
Pawtucket lost the team because the state of Rhode Island is a mess. Plain and simple. The fact that it took so long for this decision to be announced showed the PawSox wanted to stay in RI. Worcester and the state of Massachusetts presented a better deal but the PawSox gave RI every opportunity to step up to the plate and they didn't. I think Curt Schilling played a significant role
|
|
|
Post by crusader12 on Aug 21, 2018 14:11:06 GMT -5
This is going to be a complete disaster around Kelly Square. You cant convince me that traffic will improve even with significant changes.
|
|
|
Post by gks on Aug 21, 2018 14:24:00 GMT -5
If Route 1 can handle Foxborough Stadium traffic Kelley Square can handle a minor league baseball crowd.
|
|
|
Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Aug 21, 2018 14:33:49 GMT -5
This is going to be a complete disaster around Kelly Square. You cant convince me that traffic will improve even with significant changes. There are other ways to get there besides Kelley Square.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Aug 21, 2018 18:42:43 GMT -5
I caught it, if no one else did . . . . .
|
|
|
Post by matunuck on Aug 21, 2018 20:57:43 GMT -5
So Rhode Island will hurt their own economy to get back at Worcester? When Worcester couldn’t get a team because of Pawtucket exercising their territorial rights would you have been all for Worcester “retaliating” against Rhode Island? Give me a break.
Worcester hurt RI's economy showing it cared for itself only with no concern for elsewhere in the valley. Pawtucket never stole a team from Worcester. A turf war has been initiated by Worcester and its actions will be reciprocated in kind. If anyone thought that RI valley officials would support uncovering a portion of the canal in the district as a part of the stadium project, you can forget about it.
Blame the fools in your state legislature who have made the state horrible for business and one that always ranks at or near the bottom for its business environment. Typical RI to lose out. Really sad but until folks stop re-electing the same clowns things won’t change. RI deserves better.
|
|
|
Post by bfoley82 on Aug 21, 2018 21:03:08 GMT -5
Worcester hurt RI's economy showing it cared for itself only with no concern for elsewhere in the valley. Pawtucket never stole a team from Worcester. A turf war has been initiated by Worcester and its actions will be reciprocated in kind. If anyone thought that RI valley officials would support uncovering a portion of the canal in the district as a part of the stadium project, you can forget about it.
Blame the fools in your state legislature who have made the state horrible for business and one that always ranks at or near the bottom for its business environment. Typical RI to lose out. Really sad but until folks stop re-electing the same clowns things won’t change. RI deserves better. I don't know many economists that think this is a good deal for the city so maybe the Rhode Island people were right to say no. www.wbjournal.com/article/20180821/NEWS01/180829995/1002
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Aug 21, 2018 21:17:07 GMT -5
If Route 1 can handle Foxborough Stadium traffic Kelley Square can handle a minor league baseball crowd. I disagree with the analogy. Rt 1 is a fine 4 lane road (2 north,2 south) that even when shifted to 3 and 1 is not sufficient to handle 80,000 people 8 days a year Kelly Sq is a tight bottleneck which isn't actually that bad, but when out of towners come to town, will pull into, hit the brakes as they freeze in total confusion, and say "what the f$#k",
|
|
|
Post by crusader12 on Aug 22, 2018 8:28:54 GMT -5
This is going to be a complete disaster around Kelly Square. You cant convince me that traffic will improve even with significant changes. There are other ways to get there besides Kelley Square. Sure there are, but the majority of people will be coming off 146 and 290. Most people now a days rely on GPS (Uber etc.) and it's going to send them right through the intersection.
|
|
|
Post by gks on Aug 22, 2018 9:25:52 GMT -5
I think people are over-reacting about the difficulty of Kelley Square. It's really not that difficult to navigate. Just need some patience. We New Englanders have plenty of that!
|
|
|
Post by rf1 on Aug 22, 2018 9:54:49 GMT -5
The Worcester Business Journal piece was sobering. All but one of the ten economists (including Holy Cross faculty) think Worcester got played for fools big time by the millionaire Pawsox owners. Their comments paint city leaders as a bunch of cheerleading rubes. Worcester city officials had the benefit of knowing what was was being offered in RI (city/state combined stadium support of 38M). RI conversely made its proposal in the dark since Worcester details only became public just last week. The City of Worcester with this knowledge then basically offered nearly 2X (additional 32M+) more on its own for stadium construction than RI. What kind of business sense is that? Got to give the WBJ credit for not just going along as most all of Worcester seems to be currently doing. It appears to be all alone in raising warning flags as city leaders steamroll this through without any extensive vetting and real input from the public. The fact that the City Manager has basically told the council that the deal can in no way be changed as it is a take it or leave project and must be approved within weeks is a classic strong arm move. Worcester residents are going to end up paying for this big time.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Aug 22, 2018 10:34:26 GMT -5
There are other ways to get there besides Kelley Square. Sure there are, but the majority of people will be coming off 146 and 290. Most people now a days rely on GPS (Uber etc.) and it's going to send them right through the intersection. Locals will use the back ways in and avoid Kelly Sq Out of towners will rely on GPS and go through Kelly Sq As I posted earlier, it really isn't that bad if you understand it. However, people from outside of greater Worcester who aren't familiar will be in for an adventure
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Aug 22, 2018 11:24:22 GMT -5
The Worcester Business Journal piece was sobering. All but one of the ten economists (including Holy Cross faculty) think Worcester got played for fools big time by the millionaire Pawsox owners. Their comments paint city leaders as a bunch of cheerleading rubes. Worcester city officials had the benefit of knowing what was was being offered in RI (city/state combined stadium support of 38M). RI conversely made its proposal in the dark since Worcester details only became public just last week. The City of Worcester with this knowledge then basically offered nearly 2X (additional 32M+) more on its own for stadium construction than RI. What kind of business sense is that? Got to give the WBJ credit for not just going along as most all of Worcester seems to be currently doing. It appears to be all alone in raising warning flags as city leaders steamroll this through without any extensive vetting and real input from the public. The fact that the City Manager has basically told the council that the deal can in no way be changed as it is a take it or leave project and must be approved within weeks is a classic strong arm move. Worcester residents are going to end up paying for this big time. From the Worcester Telegram This doesn't strike me as unreasonable. There is an agreement in place that the council needs to approve. I assume that somewhere in the agreement it says it's contingent on council approval. The council, acting as one party to an agreement cannot unilaterally change, amend, or delete any part of it without consent of all the other parties to the agreement. That's just common sense. The council isn't going to sweeten the deal for the Sox, the the team is likely to want some concession for any takeaways the council is throwing into the agreement. It re-opens all the negotiations. It would be like the city telling the police department that overtime would no longer be paid at time and a half without re-opening the collective bargaining agreement. That's just not how the world works. The September time frame is a bit of a strong arm move
|
|
|
Post by hchoops on Aug 22, 2018 11:24:47 GMT -5
Doesn’t GPS take traffic into consideration ?
|
|