|
Post by bfoley82 on Jan 21, 2019 0:54:28 GMT -5
NAD, come on. You don't drive to those games, you fly. [think "big time"] And you would do it with so much frequency that you would collect a lot of frequent flyer miles and have a lot of those trips gratis. Not frequent flyer mileage...you charter to those places in the Big East
|
|
|
Post by Non Alum Dave on Jan 21, 2019 5:34:43 GMT -5
However, I find the discussions of what might have been a waste of time. + infinity
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Jan 21, 2019 7:42:38 GMT -5
That would be the teams and the hanger-ons, you know, like the photographers, not the fans.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Jan 21, 2019 9:06:08 GMT -5
In almost 40 years of the Big East, HC would have made at least a couple final fours and I believe a national championship. Probably 25-30 ncaa appearances but that wouldn’t have been good for the tiny college on the hill. In your opinion, had HC joined the Big East, should they also have followed the Georgetown model and admitted a kid who could barely read in order to get that national championship? FWIW, I recognize that having athletes that in no way are reflective of the student body as a whole as done no harm to Georgetown's academic reputation
|
|
|
Post by cfrivals on Jan 21, 2019 9:33:13 GMT -5
That argument is rediculous! We could and would have been the Duke of the BE. So you are saying the 4 thrown off the team in last 2 years is positive and we are recruiting the highest level academic and moral background. Stuff happens at all levels
|
|
|
Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jan 21, 2019 9:43:14 GMT -5
Why don't one of you living in the four decades ago past start a thread called "nostalgia" where you all can hang out and bitch 'til your heart is content amongst each other rather than sending thread after thread down the toilet.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Jan 21, 2019 9:45:25 GMT -5
In almost 40 years of the Big East, HC would have made at least a couple final fours and I believe a national championship. Probably 25-30 ncaa appearances but that wouldn’t have been good for the tiny college on the hill. In your opinion, had HC joined the Big East, should they also have followed the Georgetown model and admitted a kid who could barely read in order to get that national championship? FWIW, I recognize that having athletes that in no way are reflective of the student body as a whole as done no harm to Georgetown's academic reputation (not to interrupt) You mean the bilingual immigrant kid who turned down BC, graduated from Georgetown, and is now the head coach of Georgetown? I'm sure HC would have done what PC did regarding Patrick Ewing (no idea what that was BTW). I'm guessing Ewing would have gone to Georgetown whether or not HC was in the Big East. I'm guessing we might have landed Billy Donovan and a few other great college players and NBAers if we were in the Big East. And had our runs and national attention as so many Big East teams did (and do) now and again. And, as you note, we'd still have the same academic reputation as we do now - if not higher.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Jan 21, 2019 10:20:32 GMT -5
You sure we aren't related? I have a niece that went to Haverford despite her being accepted to Holy Cross but perhaps because her brothers, father, uncles and cousins went there, she wanted to go her own way. She turned out alright but not as good is if she went to Holy Cross. Fr. McFarland never had a nice thing to say about Georgetown . . . . one of the few things I agreed with him on. He seemed to think it was highly overrated. But, then again, he didn't believe in the USN&WR rankings either.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Jan 21, 2019 10:32:27 GMT -5
Here's the thing. Holy Cross, like it or not, marches to the beat of a different drummer. We are not ever going to be "big time" sports. At best, we can be a big fish in a small pond. In part because by conscious decision and design, we will be and remain a relatively small liberal arts college. We might see over the coming decades a small tweak here and there but that's it.
We will never even try to compete with large state universities. We will not become a member of an expanded Ivy League because they aren't going to expand and, if they did, until we lose the Catholic identity, any discussions would be a non-starter.
So, we find ourselves in a unique niche. Not for everyone. In fact, not for most. What Holy Cross does do academically, it excels in. Holy Cross pumps out leaders in medicine, law, politics and business within a progressively more diverse campus environment for a progressively more diverse world. That's the focus - not athletics. While I believe we can and should do better and strive to excel in athletics, like a governor on a bus or truck, there are limitations to just how "fast" we can go.
So, for those who want to bring back the success of the past, temper your expectations or become Georgetown, BC or Notre Dame fans to avoid ulcers.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Jan 21, 2019 10:34:32 GMT -5
A number of years ago a friend's daughter wanted to attend G-town. She was an excellent student with high SAT scores and was involved in many activities. Although her academic profile was almost certainly much higher than at least some of the athletes at G-town, she was rejected by the school. She told me that unless you're an athlete it is incredibly hard to get accepted. She felt that her seat in effect was taken by a much less qualified, far lower academic level athlete. I explained that in my view, schools do not make acceptance decisions based solely on academic numbers, nor should they. She agreed that this was understandable but pointed out that there was such a large disparity between some of the athletes and the non-athletes at G-town that it was totally unfair to the non-athlete applicants. Her experience made real to me the reality of big time sports(ND? and others.) She liked the IVY/HC model that team members should be reflective of the academics of the student body. She lost a great deal of respect for G-town. I believe that she went to Haverford or some other high quality college. HC had no attraction for her. She has had great success in the business world, married, kids, etc. But, I believe that her G-town experience left an indelible mark and she lost a lot of respect for the school. LoveHC Schools like Georgetown and the Ivies reject so many kids who fit their academic profiles it is impossible to determine why or why not an individual applicant is rejected. I can't count the times (hundreds?) I've consoled a student who is rejected from an Ivy and bemoans the fact that if he/she was a URM or a recruited athlete they would be accepted. (Particularly noteworthy when that URM or recruited athlete is someone whose lesser academic record is known to the both of us - -yes, that has happened). Again, I point out to them that many qualified kids are rejected from schools like that and not to take it personally (easier said than done) and it will work out for the best.
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Jan 21, 2019 10:37:01 GMT -5
Here's the thing. Holy Cross, like it or not, marches to the beat of a different drummer. We are not ever going to be "big time" sports. At best, we can be a big fish in a small pond. In part because by conscious decision and design, we will be and remain a relatively small liberal arts college. We might see over the coming decades a small tweak here and there but that's it. We will never even try to compete with large state universities. We will not become a member of an expanded Ivy League because they aren't going to expand and, if they did, until we lose the Catholic identity, any discussions would be a non-starter. So, we find ourselves in a unique niche. Not for everyone. In fact, not for most. What Holy Cross does do academically, it excels in. Holy Cross pumps out leaders in medicine, law, politics and business within a progressively more diverse campus environment for a progressively more diverse world. That's the focus - not athletics. While I believe we can and should do better and strive to excel in athletics, like a governor on a bus or truck, there are limitations to just how "fast" we can go. So, for those who want to bring back the success of the past, temper your expectations or become Georgetown, BC or Notre Dame fans to avoid ulcers. Beautifully expressed! Nice work, sader1970. (PS: Remember we have almost as many male students today as we had back in the 1950s. There is that going for us.) (PPS: The women's teams are far better than they were back then, no question about that.)
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Jan 21, 2019 11:17:08 GMT -5
In almost 40 years of the Big East, HC would have made at least a couple final fours and I believe a national championship. Probably 25-30 ncaa appearances but that wouldn’t have been good for the tiny college on the hill. But instead we talk about lousy attendance, losing seasons, bad coaches, weak rosters, and year after year of being in the bottom tier of the PL. I don’t speak for all of Worcester, but this is not what I would call their team, it could have been, but that ship has sailed and is loooonng goooone! I don't agree with that. Most likely HC would have been Northwestern in the Big East. Or at best on a par with BC, couple of good years, lots of bad years. Would I have liked it? Probably! Worst thing about what happened to HC has not been losing, it's been being largely forgotten.
|
|
|
Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 21, 2019 11:20:27 GMT -5
First, I was surprised we lost this game. Second, I was surprised we lost at home. Third, I was even more surprised we blew a late lead.
I looked on Twitter to see what was being spoken about with regard to the men's game. There MAY have been one post regarding it that wasn't one of the social media accounts managed by HC themselves. There were lots more about various "Holy Cross" high school-related events within the last few days, but literally no one on the entire Twitterverse was talking about this game.
It's disappointment in a vacuum. A tree is falling in a forest with no one there to hear it except for us. The sound isn't nearly loud enough.
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Jan 21, 2019 11:21:36 GMT -5
...and if a tree falls on "Twitter" why would anyone care?
|
|
|
Post by lou on Jan 21, 2019 11:30:59 GMT -5
First, I was surprised we lost this game. Second, I was surprised we lost at home. Third, I was even more surprised we blew a late lead. I looked on Twitter to see what was being spoken about with regard to the men's game. There MAY have been one post regarding it that wasn't one of the social media accounts managed by HC themselves. There were lots more about various "Holy Cross" high school-related events within the last few days, but literally no one on the entire Twitterverse was talking about this game. It's disappointment in a vacuum. A tree is falling in a forest with no one there to hear it except for us. The sound isn't nearly loud enough. Most of us old-timers couldn't care less about Twitter or the entire twitterverse, especially coming from the twitter-in-chief, so that's one of the reasons you won't find much about HC
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Jan 21, 2019 11:38:21 GMT -5
Schools like Georgetown and the Ivies reject so many kids who fit their academic profiles it is impossible to determine why or why not an individual applicant is rejected. I can't count the times (hundreds?) I've consoled a student who is rejected from an Ivy and bemoans the fact that if he/she was a URM or a recruited athlete they would be accepted. (Particularly noteworthy when that URM or recruited athlete is someone whose lesser academic record is known to the both of us - -yes, that has happened). Again, I point out to them that many qualified kids are rejected from schools like that and not to take it personally (easier said than done) and it will work out for the best. Understandably, there are students rejected who fit the academic profile in favor of students who may not be quite at the same academic level but who clearly are representative of the school, if marginally. But, what about the cases of highly qualified applicants who lose their seats to totally unqualified athletes, not even close to being academically qualified in any way.Those who don't read/write on a college level or are "one and done"? This was the complaint made about G-town, much to their shame. ( Also this complaint has been made about the admission of some legacy students or those whose families are large contributors. Neither of which apparently applies to HC admissions from what I have been told.) LoveHC I guess the general public knows Patrick Ewing as the basketball payer who overcame some tremendous disadvantages (language, poverty, race) in his youth and endured some horrific (not an exaggeration) racial slurs during his four college years to graduate from Georgetown. And now he's their coach. Georgetown is proud to have played a part in that success story. (Questions about his academic qualification v that of the average disadvantaged URM's academic qualifications at Georgetown relative to admissions in the early 80's seem obscure or outdated or even a bit quaint .) IMHO Duke is embarrassing itself with its current one-and-done forays.
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 21, 2019 11:42:05 GMT -5
Understandably, there are students rejected who fit the academic profile in favor of students who may not be quite at the same academic level but who clearly are representative of the school, if marginally. But, what about the cases of highly qualified applicants who lose their seats to totally unqualified athletes, not even close to being academically qualified in any way.Those who don't read/write on a college level or are "one and done"? This was the complaint made about G-town, much to their shame. ( Also this complaint has been made about the admission of some legacy students or those whose families are large contributors. Neither of which apparently applies to HC admissions from what I have been told.) LoveHC I guess the general public knows Patrick Ewing as the basketball payer who overcame some tremendous disadvantages (language, poverty, race) in his youth and endured some horrific (not an exaggeration) racial slurs during his four college years to graduate from Georgetown. And now he's their coach. Georgetown is proud to have played a part in that success story. (Questions about his academic qualification v that of the average disadvantaged URM's academic qualifications at Georgetown relative to admissions in the early 80's seem obscure or outdated or even a bit quaint .) IMHO Duke is embarrassing itself with its current one-and-done forays. Do you think Coach K cares at all about academics, other than ensuring his players stay eligible?
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Jan 21, 2019 11:45:10 GMT -5
I guess the general public knows Patrick Ewing as the basketball payer who overcame some tremendous disadvantages (language, poverty, race) in his youth and endured some horrific (not an exaggeration) racial slurs during his four college years to graduate from Georgetown. And now he's their coach. Georgetown is proud to have played a part in that success story. (Questions about his academic qualification v that of the average disadvantaged URM's academic qualifications at Georgetown relative to admissions in the early 80's seem obscure or outdated or even a bit quaint .) IMHO Duke is embarrassing itself with its current one-and-done forays. Do you think Coach K cares at all about academics, other than ensuring his players stay eligible? No. As long as they stay eligible, he is happy. When the one and done folks leave, I am sure he wishes them well.
|
|
|
Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 21, 2019 11:52:09 GMT -5
Rob and Lou, I can definitely appreciate your answers. You guys don't care about Twitter, but you are admittedly (or factually, Rob... accept it, it's okay! You don't look a day over 60 ) of the older generation. Nothing wrong with that, but without new blood and interest in the program/college, all of our yelling and opining and whining and suggestions become irrelevant. HC basketball at least, and perhaps (to be a little hyperbolic) the college in general at worst, are in jeopardy. Half of the planet is under the age of thirty. As of the third quarter of 2018, Twitter averaged at 326 million monthly active users. That's just barely more than the entire population of the US. While not apparently representative of this noble, die-hard, indomitable, wise, rabid, yet selfless fanbase on Crossports-- and our friends in this tiny online community -- it's extremely representative of the sentiments of the wider public. And the fact that our Division 1 game had no whispers of the game anywhere, by any person, not paid to talk about it, speaks volumes of the uphill climb we and the recruiting coaches are dealing with.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Jan 21, 2019 11:54:43 GMT -5
In your opinion, had HC joined the Big East, should they also have followed the Georgetown model and admitted a kid who could barely read in order to get that national championship? FWIW, I recognize that having athletes that in no way are reflective of the student body as a whole as done no harm to Georgetown's academic reputation (not to interrupt) You mean the bilingual immigrant kid who turned down BC, graduated from Georgetown, and is now the head coach of Georgetown? I'm sure HC would have done what PC did regarding Patrick Ewing (no idea what that was BTW). I'm guessing Ewing would have gone to Georgetown whether or not HC was in the Big East. I'm guessing we might have landed Billy Donovan and a few other great college players and NBAers if we were in the Big East. And had our runs and national attention as so many Big East teams did (and do) now and again. And, as you note, we'd still have the same academic reputation as we do now - if not higher. By any fair standard, Georgetown did a great job educating Ewing. They set up an extraordinary educational plan for him, and pretty much hid him from the media for his time at Georgetown, but after all that he graduated with a real education. They didn't just use him and throw him away. Today he is a fine representative of the university. That does not change the fact that they admitted a kid who was nowhere near the bell curve of their student body in order to win their championship. It's not just a case of playing in the Big East to have these championships and Final Four's. You also have to create a special admission standard for star athletes to have a reasonably level playing field. Although one can debate whether it a good trade-off, I don't think HC has ever been prepared to make that kind of compromise
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Jan 21, 2019 11:56:32 GMT -5
WCHC,
Fair enough. And, without Twitter, where would our newscasters be (since they seem to start every day's broadcasts by going over the President's latest tweets)?
Perhaps we should organize CROSSPORTS to put things on Twitter (as we have put votes for HC athletes and alums in many contests). I am not sure it would matter, but hey, why not?
|
|
|
Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 21, 2019 12:02:49 GMT -5
WCHC, Fair enough. And, without Twitter, where would our newscasters be (since they seem to start every day's broadcasts by going over the President's latest tweets)? Perhaps we should organize CROSSPORTS to put things on Twitter (as we have put votes for HC athletes and alums in many contests). I am not sure it would matter, but hey, why not? Let me not get into the political too far, so as to avoid the wrist-slapping I foresee coming down the pike, but even as a staunch conservative I am not a major fan of the Tweeter In Chief, nor am I the wider "news" environment that drools for his next tweet message. With that, I'm not even asking for our Defenders of the Purple to up the Twitter activity. It would merely be the priest preaching to the choir via another pulpit. Just saying that in our little town, we're arguing about the state of our library with six books in it and half the pages torn out or vandalized... the rest of the country doesn't even know we exist.
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Jan 21, 2019 12:07:45 GMT -5
Do you think Coach K cares at all about academics, other than ensuring his players stay eligible? No. As long as they stay eligible, he is happy. When the one and done folks leave, I am sure he wishes them well. It's sad that it's nearly impossible to stay at an elite level without accomodating the one-and-doners. And the game is suffering overall because of this.
|
|
|
Post by gks on Jan 21, 2019 12:08:11 GMT -5
(not to interrupt) You mean the bilingual immigrant kid who turned down BC, graduated from Georgetown, and is now the head coach of Georgetown? I'm sure HC would have done what PC did regarding Patrick Ewing (no idea what that was BTW). I'm guessing Ewing would have gone to Georgetown whether or not HC was in the Big East. I'm guessing we might have landed Billy Donovan and a few other great college players and NBAers if we were in the Big East. And had our runs and national attention as so many Big East teams did (and do) now and again. And, as you note, we'd still have the same academic reputation as we do now - if not higher. By any fair standard, Georgetown did a great job educating Ewing. They set up an extraordinary educational plan for him, and pretty much hid him from the media for his time at Georgetown, but after all that he graduated with a real education. They didn't just use him and throw him away. Today he is a fine representative of the university. That does not change the fact that they admitted a kid who was nowhere near the bell curve of their student body in order to win their championship. It's not just a case of playing in the Big East to have these championships and Final Four's. You also have to create a special admission standard for star athletes to have a reasonably level playing field. Although one can debate whether it a good trade-off, I don't think HC has ever been prepared to make that kind of compromise Georgetown took a chance on a young kid and that kid took full advantage of the opportunity presented him. Didn't hurt Georgetown a bit and I'll argue it actually benefited them. Any school would love to have Patrick Ewing as a graduate and representative of their institution. For people to say he was dumb and didn't deserve what he earned are wrong. It's OK to take a chance on kids that aren't quite up to the "lofty" standards that HC boasts. Doesn't compromise the college in any way. In fact makes it look better.
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Jan 21, 2019 12:10:00 GMT -5
WCHC, Fair enough. And, without Twitter, where would our newscasters be (since they seem to start every day's broadcasts by going over the President's latest tweets)? Perhaps we should organize CROSSPORTS to put things on Twitter (as we have put votes for HC athletes and alums in many contests). I am not sure it would matter, but hey, why not? Let me not get into the political too far, so as to avoid the wrist-slapping I foresee coming down the pike, but even as a staunch conservative I am not a major fan of the Tweeter In Chief, nor am I the wider "news" environment that drools for his next tweet message. With that, I'm not even asking for our Defenders of the Purple to up the Twitter activity. It would merely be the priest preaching to the choir via another pulpit. Just saying that in our little town, we're arguing about the state of our library with six books in it and half the pages torn out or vandalized... the rest of the country doesn't even know we exist. My take is anyone who is somewhat of a jerk in general gets on Twitter and becomes an uber jerk.
|
|